EV or PHEV - 2 kinds, 80km commute, occasional 190km trips

Gile_na_gile

I have read through lots of the threads but am still not set in terms of balancing what I want with what is possible.

Other half works locally, will need car for short hops and shopping. A 24KwH or even less would cover that fine.

I travel to Dublin, 38km each way, two-three days per week. Our ICE is now written off, due to a collision, so crunch time comes early. I felt bad driving it to work, but public transport is 1h30 min and a car journey 40min off peak. Perfect for an EV. Then, like lots of Irish people, trips down the country every few months. In my case, south on M7 and M8 so good with charge points, but with children those stops have to be minimal. Also need space for three suitcases (large, medium, and small) for these holiday trips and airport runs with kids and child seats in the back. This would be ideal, perhaps for keeping an ICE car and getting an old 2013 leaf for my commutes, but that is now not possible unless we buy two cars. Budget is for second-hand, max €18k.

OPTION1 (one car): Mitsubishi Outlander. Will cover local trips mostly on electric, but not much good for an M50 commute or long trips, since MPG is comparable to diesel at 40mpg. ~16k second-hand. Looks oversized and heavy (and ugly) to me as kids are out of pushchairs.

OPTION2 (one car): Jump up to 30KwH 2016 Leaf. Will cover all, with limited space but does seem to fit three suitcases, but necessitates a quick top up on occasional 200km long journeys unless conditions are perfect perhaps (max 250km, but I imagine realistic 160km on motorway?). Means 30 min extra at charging point with occasionally cranky kids. 2h30 min instead of 1h50 in Ford at a good pace. Cheap fuel and low maintainance. No tailpipe emissions.

OPTION3 (two cars): Get two old cars. One an Estate, and the other a Gen2 Leaf. Facing higher costs of maintenance and taxation and insurance.

Our home has a driveway, so am edging to Leaf30 if I can convert other half and budget allows (with PCP). Am guessing 1200EUR from insurer for 2005 Ford written off.... In an ideal world, each housing estate would pool ICE cars for long hauls and then EVs for standard commuters and shopping GAA runs etc.

ewj1978

You'll not do 160km at motorway speeds in a L30. Maybe 135-140km in very good weather.
I'd a 125km commute in my L30 SVE(Tekna) and it was great. Relaxing and you won't know yourself with the preheat options/heated seats etc in the winter.
For the 4 times a year I went from Cork to Dublin/Belfast I just put up with the knowledge it would take slightly longer.
Loads of people will suggest an Ioniq but you'll never get one for 18k. Cheapest on DD is 25k.
I'd not rule out the outlander if you can get good spec for the right price. For what you're saying 75%? of the journeys will be electric only, you'll save a fortune.
You then can bang it down the motorway the 2/3 times a year that you need to and not need to worry about stops/faulty chargers/occupied chargers etc.

unkel

I was going to post exactly what ewj1978 said

You need work charging though to do the full commute on electric in the Outlander. Instead of an Outlander you could consider a BMW 330e, Kia Optima PHEV or Opel Ampera, the latter has the biggest range on electric.

Gile_na_gile

Thanks, all. I may have to settle on the Outlander until more long-range electric cars come available in a few years or buy a second-hand leaf for local journeys as a second car. Some of the other PHEV models I hear about are not on the second-hand market / my budget of sub-€18k, or even available in the case of the Ampera.


The market seems to be expanding quicker now, at last, in any case. This time two years it should be easier to get a +300km (in Irish weather on the motorway) range EV at a range of budgets from basic to mid to exec.

unkel

Gile_na_gile wrote: »

Some of the other PHEV models I hear about are not on the second-hand market / my budget of sub-€18k, or even available in the case of the Ampera.

Yes they are. All 3 cars I mentioned can be had within budget. 330e and Optima PHEV from about GBP15k and Ampera a good bit less than that. Not many in this country though, you might have to bring one in from the UK. There will be a little bit of VRT to pay. And if you don't want to bring one in yourself, there are crowds over here that do just that. Like Phil Fitzgerald from electricautos.ie

The Ampera in particular is quite interesting as it has a decent range and the available battery is quite a low percentage of the total battery capacity. This means that it is highly unlikely to lose much electric range over time

Apart from the cars I mentioned, you can also get a Golf PHEV, Audi A3 PHEV and Toyota Prius PHEV within budget

mobfromcork

Rather than start a new thread I hope the OP doesn't mind if I piggy back on this thread as I was about to post a very similar question. We have 2 petrol ICE - 2008 Saab 9-5 estate and Mazda 6 both on old tax. Saab is in very good condition with 130k km, Mazda (2004) ragged looking but mechanically solid with 240k km. We wish to change for both economic and environmental reasons.

We both have a 40km in total trip to work every day plus about another 100ish km of local driving per week - bringing kids to gymnastics etc. We have a 400km round trip to Cork every few weeks as well. I have read loads of really good info on this forum over the last few weeks and was leaning towards replacing the Mazda with a 24kw or 30kw (if budget allows) Leaf. Budget not confirmed but around 12-14k max I reckon. However, as most of the driving will be within electric range of the Outlander I would consider one if price was right. It would suit better in some ways as we have 2 kids, dogs and tend to do a lot of stuff at weekends.

Our commute is 10km on hilly local roads, 20km on national road and 8km town driving in total every day. From looking on Autotrader, mileage on the Outlanders at our budget seems to be a good bit higher than the Leafs (Leaves??). I hadn't really looked at the Ampera Unkel mentioned above.

We have a night meter already and on paper I reckon our outlay on the car every month will be broadly similar but instead of paying for petrol, we will be paying off a car loan.

There's just a lingering doubt between getting the fully EV and the PHEV. All things considered if we were to solely use the battery in the Outlander for all the local trips would the running costs be similar to the Leaf? It would also be more economical than the Saab for longer journeys too, even in petrol mode when the battery runs out I'd imagine? If anyone who had faced a similar prospect had any advice I'd be very appreciative.
Thanks

Mark

unkel

You can't replace both your cars with suitable EV / PHEV cars for your budget of €14k. I'd replace the Mazda with a 2014 Leaf 24kWh (aim for about €9k), save some of your budget and keep the Saab for the moment for your long trips.

slave1

You won’t do 160kms in a L30 in the depths of winter at any speed

mobfromcork

unkel wrote: »

You can't replace both your cars with suitable EV / PHEV cars for your budget of €14k. I'd replace the Mazda with a 2014 Leaf 24kWh (aim for about €9k), save some of your budget and keep the Saab for the moment for your long trips.

Sorry, I wasn't too clear in my post. I am only thinking of replacing one car and am unsure whether to go PHEV or fully electric for now. I'd be very happy to only spend 9k on the Leaf as you suggested as even with the shorter range of the 24 kw we will have plenty left for daily driving. If however, we were going to go PHEV it looks like we would have to up the budget by a few thousand.

unkel

Go fully electric for the car that will only do the short trips. You will not be disappointed

Lantus

As you realistically need a car that can exceed EV ranges then your choices are 2 cars or stick to one good ice until EV prices and range improve over next 3+ years.

Gile_na_gile

While it was a revelation to see the models available in the UK, and know that I can ask dealers here to fetch them, I was frustrated by how small the boot spaces were, so checked them all. Results below with typical real world range. Might be useful to have a sticky with this sort of information, as well as other dealers that do imports. I am now thinking the Ioniq PHEV (from UK) might be better due its range and large boot, but otherwise the Outlander.


MODEL EV_Range BOOT (litres)
Vauxhall (Opel) Ampera ~50km 300
Kia Niro ~40km (50km) 324
Nissan Leaf 2016 30KwH ~150km (200km) 370
Nissan Leaf 2018 40KwH ~220km (300km) 435
Hyundai Ionic ~45km 341/350
Kia Optima ~30km (33m) 307/440 (Estate)
Mitsubishi Outlander ~32km 463
Toyota Prius ~22km (low speed) 445
BMW 330e ~20km 370
Audi A3 ~24km 280
Golf GTE ~30km 272

Don't think the Outlander diesel is a 40 MPG car, it's not, it will do 40-42 mpg well below motorway speeds, in town you're probably talking 30 mpg.

It's quite spacious, and a nice decent car to drive, comfortable and quiet inside and at 140 Km/h you would think you're doing 100.

I've read people getting 30 mph to 60+ mpg in the Outlander PHEV it's all about how much you can keep the battery topped up and it has a fast charge port too so handy for longer trips. See if you can get work charging.

You can always swap cars, you do the most Kms you take the Leaf let her take the Outlander PHEV if she's doing less. Then take the Outlander on the long trips and so what if you have to spend some money on fuel for the odd long trip, you have the option of fast charging but as well as that you can make use of the AC points in every half decent sized town, I'm not sure what charger Kw the Outlander has but you could charge it in maybe 2 hrs on an AC point if it has a 7 Kw charger if 3 kw then you could charge in about 4 hrs but AC means less spent on petrol and less time at fast chargers.

We can take a family of 4 in a BMW i3 despite the small boot, buggy, small suitcase and there's room on the floor for bags etc. So it's not that hard to live with a boot the size of the Outlander or Leaf if I can live with the i3 but we do have the Outlander when and if needed for space.

The Ampera is also a 4 seater only and you might not find anyone to service it or repair it should things go wrong.

My advice is that because the charge points are getting busier and queues could see you waiting an hour or more before you even get to charge , so I would keep 1 ICE and get a Leaf 24 Kwh from 2014+ should still be good for 100-130 Kms range on a charge. Get the SVE full spec shouldn't cost much more.

Long trips in a fully electric will be a real pain in the ass and it gets really old, really fast.

The ESB plan 100 New fast chargers and upgrading existing ones , what the plans are exactly is anyone's guess but the new ones will be 150 Kw and possibly CCS only which if correct will not charge a Nissan Leaf, renault Zoe , Outlander, Imev and any EV with ChaDEMO socket.

Upgrading existing ones might be to the triple headed units that will charge all makes but it's likely from now on most of them will be CCS only so I would hold off until we know for sure before you replace.

Even when the Leaf 60 Kwh will still be ChaDeMo as Nissan refuse to add CCS to their cars which is the future. All the Chargers being installed by Ionity for example will be CCS only so that leaves Leaf owners with the potential of a disastrous network.

On the other hand, leafs do not charge fast on DC you're talking 30-40 Kw max on a good day and Leaf 40 can be as little as 20 Kw if the battery is hot so it might be best for us CCS owners if leafs are kept away from a high speed charging network.

ELM327

Ioniq or leaf40 will do all trips mentioned in the OP

30kWh leaf will not do 160km on the motorway in all weathers. Not a hope.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

Ioniq or leaf40 will do all trips mentioned in the OP

30kWh leaf will not do 160km on the motorway in all weathers. Not a hope.

But they're beyond budget.

+ they still need fast charging on a long trip which has the potential to cause serious irritation to those in the car that do not want to wait this long.

Pull up to a charger, leaf 40 charging at 30 Kw, Ioniq sitting waiting, you have a potential 1 hr +wait for the leaf and 30-40 mins for the Ioniq and if you got a leaf 40 another 1hr 30 mins potential if the battery is very warm or hot, eah, no thanks.

You got a Leaf 24 and it could still take 30-40 mins to get to 80%.

If there were a lot more chargers on site, say 6 per site then chances are you'd be able to charge when you get there.

Budget is 18K max, and time at chargers minimum so this rules out EV and possibly Outlander PHEV.

OP why not get an Outlander for a day or two test drive to see how it works for you ?

Failing all that I'd give serious thought to a Prius, good car, 2011-12 should be well within budget boot is spacious and keep some money towards an EV with CCS and wait until there's a lot more chargers , in the meantime keep saving, pay more cash and pay less interest !

ELM327

Deleted User wrote: »

But they're beyond budget.

+ they still need fast charging on a long trip which has the potential to cause serious irritation to those in the car that do not want to wait this long.

Pull up to a charger, leaf 40 charging at 30 Kw, Ioniq sitting waiting, you have a potential 1 hr +wait for the leaf and 30-40 mins for the Ioniq and if you got a leaf 40 another 1hr 30 mins potential if the battery is very warm or hot, eah, no thanks.

You got a Leaf 24 and it could still take 30-40 mins to get to 80%.

If there were a lot more chargers on site, say 6 per site then chances are you'd be able to charge when you get there.

Budget is 18K max, and time at chargers minimum so this rules out EV and possibly Outlander PHEV.

OP why not get an Outlander for a day or two test drive to see how it works for you ?

Failing all that I'd give serious thought to a Prius, good car, 2011-12 should be well within budget boot is spacious and keep some money towards an EV with CCS and wait until there's a lot more chargers , in the meantime keep saving, pay more cash and pay less interest !

To do 190km in an Ioniq does not require fast charging, so that waiting is out of the question.

ELM327

ELM327 wrote: »

To do 190km in an Ioniq does not require fast charging, so that waiting is out of the question.

Still beyond budget.

Will it do 190 Kms @ 120 Km/h comfortably in all weathers ? what about some driving around at destination ? 190 Kms might be from A-B but that might leave little to nothing for driving around town, sight seeing etc.

Gile_na_gile

In the end I am reconsidering stretching the budget with loans to get the 2018 Leaf and weighing a couple of options:

PCP/HP (from dealer or bank): I would in any case aim to buy outright at the end, saving heavily, but when that is your objective the two schemes are broadly similar bar the imposed limitations on PCP, but then if a driver is saving to pay the GFMS and not living from month to month, then there is no reason for a buyer to fall into an unwanted leasing trap. Risk, of course, is that if personal economy collapses, then you lose the car in both cases. (Also, PCP does not impact on your credit history, yet...)

this website was really useful: https://www.ccpc.ie/consumers/money/loans/paying-for-your-car/hire-purchase/

The HP payback time tends to 4-5 years, which seems too long in a changing market. You don't own the car, and I am not sure how easy it is to pay back early if you are saving extra on the side. There are options to pay back early, with some possible reductions in interest for early payback. Various fees apply in both cases requiring attention to small print.

Personal Loan (from bank or credit union): Best choice if possible, as it also allows you to sell the car early if a game-changing EV is on the horizon quicker than anticipated. You own the car with no restrictions.

I don't like loans in any time, but am considering it now to make the leap to electric now for both selfish and environmental reasons. I love electric cars, and feel we are dragging our feet on reducing emissions, especially in Ireland (albeit that BEV CO2 emissions are still circa 60g/km due to peat burning power stations).

NSAman

Range Rover PHEV yer only man

Gile_na_gile

I'm waiting on the Hummer PHEV for an Afghan adventure.

whacker00

We recently went with the Outlander

Have it about 5 weeks and average is just over 50mpg, no home charger installed yet but trying to maximise charging where possible (three pin and public network). A couple of longer trips into that 100-140km where it averaged aprx 40mpg @110kph on the motorway and no charge at destination.

Mid week is just a daily kids drop off and town driving. Getting on average 38-40k on a charge. Our model does not have preheat function so find using the ice in the morning to heat up or defog Windows

May help with your reviews etc

threeball

Why is it that none of the manufacturers are producing family cars (full 5 seater or 7 seaters) in fully electric with weekly none on the horizon. Surely this is the optimum market for electric. Short runs to schools, shops, activities with very few cross country trips. To me it seems like the biggest market for electric is being ignored for suv's where long trips are far more likely.
If there was an all electric s-max or similar I'd buy it in the morning.

threeball

threeball wrote: »

Why is it that none of the manufacturers are producing family cars (full 5 seater or 7 seaters) in fully electric with weekly none on the horizon. Surely this is the optimum market for electric. Short runs to schools, shops, activities with very few cross country trips. To me it seems like the biggest market for electric is being ignored for suv's where long trips are far more likely.
If there was an all electric s-max or similar I'd buy it in the morning.

To answer in BOLD above, quite simply mate, they don't have to or need to to survive, sales of ICE cars show no signs of slowing down and there's more profit to be made with ICE cars because they can build pretty much everything in house and don't have to buy expensive batteries.

It costs millions to develop new models so it's going to be a slow process.

whacker00

threeball wrote: »

Why is it that none of the manufacturers are producing family cars (full 5 seater or 7 seaters) in fully electric with weekly none on the horizon. Surely this is the optimum market for electric. Short runs to schools, shops, activities with very few cross country trips. To me it seems like the biggest market for electric is being ignored for suv's where long trips are far more likely.
If there was an all electric s-max or similar I'd buy it in the morning.

I agree but I would say 7 seats , battery and electric motors may be difficult to squeeze into that size chassis and would also be a huge weight. The XC90 is 7 seats or the model X but not very affordable

threeball

whacker00 wrote: »

I agree but I would say 7 seats , battery and electric motors may be difficult to squeeze into that size chassis and would also be a huge weight. The XC90 is 7 seats or the model X but not very affordable

You'd imagine the long platform would be ideal for batteries. Surely weight would not be any more than the audi e-tron or similar which all the car companies are trying to push. Personally i think they're chasing the wrong market.

slave1

threeball wrote: »

Why is it that none of the manufacturers are producing family cars (full 5 seater or 7 seaters) in fully electric with weekly none on the horizon. Surely this is the optimum market for electric. Short runs to schools, shops, activities with very few cross country trips. To me it seems like the biggest market for electric is being ignored for suv's where long trips are far more likely.
If there was an all electric s-max or similar I'd buy it in the morning.

Nissan NV200 has been on the market for years and perfect for city runs

eagerv

threeball wrote: »

Why is it that none of the manufacturers are producing family cars (full 5 seater or 7 seaters) in fully electric with weekly none on the horizon. Surely this is the optimum market for electric. Short runs to schools, shops, activities with very few cross country trips. To me it seems like the biggest market for electric is being ignored for suv's where long trips are far more likely.
If there was an all electric s-max or similar I'd buy it in the morning.

Perhaps a car like the latest Renault Scenic would make a good EV?


Can be extended to a 7 seater, has underfloor storage so battery should not intrude much into cabin. Looks fairly slippery with large narrow wheels.

threeball

slave1 wrote: »

Nissan NV200 has been on the market for years and perfect for city runs

NV200 is an ugly van which most mothers wouldn't be seen dead in. You need cars like the C5 Picasso, Ford S-max, galaxy or the Renault Scenic mentioned in order for it to take off. Ridiculous that the only market that electric is truly ready for is being ignored for sports cars and SUV's.

Gile_na_gile

Hoping to get the 2018 leaf in next few weeks, and scouring the home charger point threads to see what is best. So far looks like it is best to source a 32amp chargepoint, tethered with Type 2, and have the electrician do the rest (North Kildare). Of course, I won't buy or commit until SEAI approval for grant comes through after car registration. Any recommendations welcome.

In the end it was the boot wot dunnit over an Ioniq aside from the range for a 1-car family with no ICE backup. It has plenty space there for holiday trips, shopping, airport runs etc. I also really like the design of the new Leaf, particularly the interior. I have gone well beyond my comfort zone in price, after a bit of haggling and shopping around, but a big deposit lightens the APR on HP.

unkel

Well wear! For the benefit of some of us in here, what spec level did you go for and how much was the bottom line price on the road?

Gile_na_gile

unkel wrote: »

Well wear! For the benefit of some of us in here, what spec level did you go for and how much was the bottom line price on the road?

SV model from a Nissan dealer. No trade-in, and just over 28k mark with one extra after doing the rounds. Includes servicing 3 years. Note there are demos around now too for sale, but are all SVE model.

Shefwedfan

Gile_na_gile wrote: »

SV model from a Nissan dealer. No trade-in, and just over 28k mark with one extra after doing the rounds. Includes servicing 3 years. Note there are demos around now too for sale, but are all SVE model.

What they looking for the demo?

Gile_na_gile

Shefwedfan wrote: »

What they looking for the demo?

One was 29500 mark. Not great value, really. With 20k km on clock.