VW plan to undercut competition with €20,000 electric cars

gizmo555

Interesting. (At least there shouldn't be any issues around lying about emissions ...)

Volkswagen, which is in talks with Ford about joint co-operation, has a plan to launch electric cars for less than €20,000. If the plan goes ahead, it could see a small electric VW as the cheapest option on the Irish market.

Volkswagen intends to sell electric cars for less than 20,000 euros and protect German jobs by converting three factories to make Tesla rivals, a source familiar with the plans has told Reuters ...

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2018/1120/1012152-vw-plan-to-undercut-competiton-with-20-000-electric-cars/

ELM327

When it comes to EV plans and prototypes there's no one better than VW

Let's see if they can make some EVs though.

DrPhilG

Do we not already have a thread full of this?

https://touch.boards.ie/thread/2057865007/8/#post108752693

ted1

gizmo555 wrote: »

Interesting. (At least there shouldn't be any issues around lying about emissions ...)

Volkswagen, which is in talks with Ford about joint co-operation, has a plan to launch electric cars for less than €20,000. If the plan goes ahead, it could see a small electric VW as the cheapest option on the Irish market.

Volkswagen intends to sell electric cars for less than 20,000 euros and protect German jobs by converting three factories to make Tesla rivals, a source familiar with the plans has told Reuters ...

https://www.rte.ie/lifestyle/motors/2018/1120/1012152-vw-plan-to-undercut-competiton-with-20-000-electric-cars/

Why can’t they under cut the competition with ICE?
Are they going to do 20k car with a battery rental as extra? I can’t see VW selling a car and battery for less than 20k

liamog

ted1 wrote: »

Why can’t they under cut the competition with ICE?
Are they going to do 20k car with a battery rental as extra? I can’t see VW selling a car and battery for less than 20k

The Seat e-Mii and Skoda e-Citigo are due before end of 2019 with a range increase to 270km WLTP, and a starting price under €20,000. The e-UP! is currently sold for €22,975 but is sold with the same spec as the highest ICE UP!s.

Sabre Man

They pretty much do this already with the e-Up.

https://pushevs.com/2018/11/04/volkswagen-e-up-gets-a-price-cut/

fricatus

Sabre Man wrote: »

They pretty much do this already with the e-Up.

https://pushevs.com/2018/11/04/volkswagen-e-up-gets-a-price-cut/

Sells well in Yorkshire!

OK, I’ll get my coat...

KCross

liamog wrote: »

The Seat e-Mii and Skoda e-Citigo are due before end of 2019 with a range increase to 270km WLTP, and a starting price under €20,000. The e-UP! is currently sold for €22,975 but is sold with the same spec as the highest ICE UP!s.

What size battery (usable) is in the eUP you have?
And whats its rated WLTP or was it ever WLTP rated?

Just trying to compare apples to apples here.

liamog

KCross wrote: »

What size battery (usable) is in the eUP you have?
And whats its rated WLTP or was it ever WLTP rated?

Just trying to compare apples to apples here.

Currently has an 18.7kWh battery (204x3.66Vx25Ah PHEV2 Cells). With an NEDC rating of 160km.

The new version will be likely be using 50Ah PHEV2 cells to give a battery of 37.4kWh, and a NEDC range of 320km.


I've not found an WLTP figure for the e-UP! but assuming a similar ratio to other cars (~1.4) should be around 115km which is pretty much what I get in the summer, and would be around 230km for the new version.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

Currently has an 18.7kWh battery (204x3.66Vx25Ah PHEV2 Cells). With an NEDC rating of 160km.

The new version will be likely be using 50Ah PHEV2 cells to give a battery of 37.4kWh, and a NEDC range of 320km.


I've not found an WLTP figure for the e-UP! but assuming a similar ratio to other cars (~1.4) should be around 115km which is pretty much what I get in the summer, and would be around 230km for the new version.

I'd imagine though that a small VW using LG Chem batteries would be able to beat the Leaf WLTP figure (~270km) with a smaller battery.

So, would the Seat e-Mii, Skoda e-Citigo and eUP really need 37kWh to get a WLTP of 230km? They could probably achieve a 230km WLTP with an Ioniq size battery and that would then allow them to offer a €20k small EV?

liamog

KCross wrote: »

I'd imagine though that a small VW using LG Chem batteries would be able to beat the Leaf WLTP figure (~270km) with a smaller battery.

So, would the Seat e-Mii, Skoda e-Citigo and eUP really need 37kWh to get a WLTP of 230km? They could probably achieve a 230km WLTP with an Ioniq size battery and that would then allow them to offer a €20k small EV?

They are quite square and not very slippy. The way battery pack prices have gone, doubling the capacity from 18.7 to 37.4 will result in a battery 2/3 of the price in 2014 when it was released. The 37.4 will fit in the same physical pack as the 18.7. It's basically a cell for cell replacement.

Mike9832

liamog wrote: »

They are quite square and not very slippy. The way battery pack prices have gone, doubling the capacity from 18.7 to 37.4 will result in a battery 2/3 of the price in 2014 when it was released. The 37.4 will fit in the same physical pack as the 18.7. It's basically a cell for cell replacement.

I would be very surprised if they put 37kWh into an e-Up, not useable anyway

I would go with KCross and guess they will use 37Ah cells to 28kWh or so

Thats a good 50% increase to 200km real world plenty for a city car

Prices havent come down that much imo, not a pack level anyway with complicated BMS, cell level maybe

Kona 64kWh at 40k is working out at 625/kWh

Leaf 30kWh was 24k a good few years ago, 800/kWh

Whats that

A 20% decrease in a few years and we are expecting 100% battery increase for the same price or cheaper?

I know its not the best way to calculate, but Nissan and Hyundai are not going to tell us how much they pay for batteries

I don't expect VW to be pushing out liquid cooled fancy BMS 50kWh EV's for 25k anytime soon

liamog

Fortunately I have sources for my speculation instead of the combined expertise of an Irish discussion forum. Also important to not confuse vehicle price with battery price. BMW, in an article saying prices were too high pegged the per kWh price as between $120 and $176/kWh. For the price to be equitable to the 2014 price the cost needs $200/kWh.

The battery pack configuration should remain the same as the current Volkswagen e-up with a total of 204 PHEV2 battery cells (102s2p), but instead of using Sanyo/Panasonic battery cells with 25 Ah it’ll most likely be upgraded to 50 Ah cells from Samsung SDI. Samsung SDI is already producing battery cells at its plant in Hungary.

Anyway, Skoda already confirmed that the e-Citigo is coming next year and Skoda officials suggest a price around 19.000 euros. It’ll be available for pre-order in the first quarter of 2019, by then we’ll know the final specs.

https://pushevs.com/2018/10/04/more-info-about-volkswagen-electric-triplets/

liamog

Further this, a good example is the UK Kona.

The Premium is available in both 39kWh and 64kWh versions, the pre vat price difference is £3,438, putting the per kWh at £137/kWh or approx $175/kWh.

KCross

liamog wrote: »

Fortunately I have sources for my speculation instead of the combined expertise of an Irish discussion forum. Also important to not confuse vehicle price with battery price. BMW, in an article saying prices were too high pegged the per kWh price as between $120 and $176/kWh. For the price to be equitable to the 2014 price the cost needs $200/kWh.


https://pushevs.com/2018/10/04/more-info-about-volkswagen-electric-triplets/

Lots of speculation in there too and also a mention of a 24kWh battery so it could go either way.

I'd still be thinking for a small city car like an eUP, which isnt hurtling up and down the motorways, they will give a "small battery" entry model option and that will be your €20k car.

Mike9832

liamog wrote: »

Fortunately I have sources for my speculation instead of the combined expertise of an Irish discussion forum. Also important to not confuse vehicle price with battery price. BMW, in an article saying prices were too high pegged the per kWh price as between $120 and $176/kWh. For the price to be equitable to the 2014 price the cost needs $200/kWh.





https://pushevs.com/2018/10/04/more-info-about-volkswagen-electric-triplets/

I like Pedro on pushevs too

But hes like you and me, has some interest in the topic

He's no battery expert and does get stuff wrong, says so himself

Not saying he's a wrong here

Looks legit

Worryingly if prices are coming down why are we not seeing the savings?

Just look at Hyundai and Kia fleecing people

Even Nissan is charging alot for the Leaf

Saints VW ain't

Expect the same from them imo, especially as VW is a more premium brand than Hyundai, Kia, Nissan anyway

God help if government pull the 10k incentive

A Kona would be 50k then

If popularity increases quickly they have to pull it or decrease it big time

liamog

Pedro is a good lad, he's got a good track record on these things.

Manufacturer's only responsibility when pricing cars is to maximise the profit for their shareholders, Hyundai chose low volume high price cars, VW are going all in on what they do best, building multiple models from a single common platform.

Mike9832

liamog wrote: »

Pedro is a good lad, he's got a good track record on these things.

Manufacturer's only responsibility when pricing cars is to maximise the profit for their shareholders, Hyundai chose low volume high price cars, VW are going all in on what they do best, building multiple models from a single common platform.

Agree

Pedro is great, love that site, pity he doesn't post more stuff.

What VW do best is make money, you said it

I don't see them undercutting anyone, at least not with the VW brand.

Sales are strong throughout the whole company, why would they distort the market and lose out on profit?

Maybe with Skoda in years to come they will.

Personally I think they will delay the ID platform and copy Tesla model.

Selling premium stuff like Audi's/Porsches with huge margin's

In Norway the Porsche Taycan has 3000 reservation's, a country where Porsche sold a total of 600 vehicles ( all models) last year. That's the road they will go down, you can quote me on it next year.

e-Golf today one month from 2019 is 35k (35kWh, €1000/kWh )

Do you believe VW will sell an equivalent ID Golf sized car for 25k ( 48kWh, €520/kWH )?

If they sold it for 35k I might be believe it ( 48kWh, €729/kWh )

Water John

Quote you on it in a year's time? Could you let me know what name you'll have then?

liamog

I think VW will sell the I.D. at whatever get's them the margin figure that they are aiming for.
When you're building a low volume car it's as much about bringing in as much as you can per vehicle.

If you're building a platfrom (MEB), you want to ensure that each vehicle has a stable margin and that you sell a large number to pay for the development costs of the platform. They've indicated the target for the Neo is at the approx level of the diesel golf. So that would put an entry level with an RRP of €26,395. They probably won't sell many of the smallest battery lower spec models, but if it gets you in the door then they've done the job and can upsell you on a bigger battery/option packs. Just like Tesla and the 35k Model 3.

Flippyfloppy

€20k on the continent probably, will end up being €28k in Ireland