Standard vs Higher Pay Scales in the Civil Service

Ravelleman

Can anyone describe how serving Civil Servants gain access to the elusive higher pay scale for their current grade?

I know that some Departments like PER and Taoiseach specifically recruit AP and PO grades on the higher scale, but how does this work from CO to HEO grade in other Departments and agencies?

doc22

Senority I'd guess for the most senior 25-30% in a grade

Duffryman

Isn't it that the Higher Scales just applies for those recruited before 2013 (or whatever date it was), and the ordinary scales applies to people who started since then?

drake70

doc22 wrote: »

Senority I'd guess for the most senior 25-30% in a grade

This is correct although I'm not sure of the percentage.

Ravelleman

drake70 wrote: »

This is correct although I'm not sure of the percentage.

Is there an established process for assigning senior staff to higher pay scales? Is this ever done by competition?

How does this apply to smaller Departments/agencies where there may be small numbers of personnel at a given grade?

drake70

Ravelleman wrote: »

Is there an established process for assigning senior staff to higher pay scales? Is this ever done by competition?

How does this apply to smaller Departments/agencies where there may be small numbers of personnel at a given grade?

I'm not aware if it's done by competition.

As far as I know it's a combination of:

- Time served at the current grade based on the amount of departmental staff in that grade.

- PMDS (Performance Management Development System)Rating

This is from 2008, sorry but I can't find anything more recent.

https://hr.per.gov.ie/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/14_Civil_Service_Induction_Manual_2008_En.pdf

Page 63

The annual PMDS cycle concludes with a formal review by the employee and the manager of achievements over the year. This is recorded on an Annual Review Form. This process involves the manager formally rating the employee’s performance. The annual review meeting also provides an opportunity for the jobholder to give feedback to his/her manager.

PMDS ratings are used in decisions relating to the awarding of increments, assignments to higher scales and eligibility for promotion, as well as identifying under-performance.

gerrybbadd

When i worked for revenue, these assignments would come around. Anyone could apply for them. You would have to put in writing why you felt you were eligible to apply for the higher grade of pay.

As far as I know, based on your submission, you'd be shortlisted and potentially put on to the new grade.

Kfagan10

One department is currently offering movement to the higher scale.

You must apply, have your line manager fill out a form recommending you and then have a higher grade manager do the same.

A priority list is then made. Points are awarded for years of service and also your pmds score over the last few years (Though it's heavily weighted towards years of service).

So basically if you're in the service long enough, you've a much better chance of success.

So, perform your duties well, have a manager who will recommend you, and then have their manager be willing to listen to that recommendation.

Not the way I'd like to see it done, but c'est la vie in the civil service.

Riskymove

Duffryman wrote: »

Isn't it that the Higher Scales just applies for those recruited before 2013 (or whatever date it was), and the ordinary scales applies to people who started since then?

no, that was restored

There are two types though - pre-1995 and post-1995 that pay different rates of PRSI and are on different salary amounts

Riskymove

Each Department (via Unions) can choose how to assign Higher Grades

the more staff in the Department, the more Higher scale assignments available

Some choose seniority based, some choose a competition but most choose a mix

the theory on seniority based, which is mot popular, is that it ensures assignments becoming available more quickly as people retire.

Riskymove

gerrybbadd wrote: »

When i worked for revenue, these assignments would come around. Anyone could apply for them.

Revenue are one of the few who chose 100% open application for assignments

Squatter

One department that I worked in funked making a decision and opted to appoint people to the higher scale purely on the basis of seniority. Gutless but at least we knew where we all stood.

The other department (as GerryB) mentioned above, invited eligible candidates to apply, although seniority was still given significance.

The issue with that is that it is - or appears to be - a more subjective process and one where people working in high profile areas of the Department had an advantage. (The counter argument to this is, of course, is that people working in high profile areas face a higher risk of being exposed if things go tits up!)

Sir Ophiuchus

I know some departments with AOs put all of their AOs on the higher scale after three years.

Edit: Sorry, didn't see the age of this; was searching on a similar topic. Apologies.

Tomjim

Is there a circular on the higher pay scales at AP level. I think there is a calculation done based on the amount of salaries paid to APs and the number of Higher scales that may be paid in a Department is based on a calculation linked to the amount of salaries paid.

However I would like to see the circular to confirm this

Kirbi

AP (and PO) higher scale appointments aren't done across the service in a manner similar to the other grades.

As far as I'm aware the majority of appointments are done via full promotion competition, and will result in placement in D/Taoiseach, D/Finance or D/PENDR (formerly D/PER). It's acceptable for 100% of APs and POs in those 3 Departments to be on the higher scale, although they can still appoint from the other panels). The most recent competition circular for AP Higher is 14/2023.

It's possible other orgs also make AP Higher scale appointments, but I believe those would also differ from how it's done for other scales because it's technically defined as a promotion.

Just to note, AP and PO Higher scales existed long before the other higher scales and we're historical lye full promotions.

Riskymove

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/108750936#Comment_108750936

How higher scales are appointed is a matter for the Union branch not management

I have been in Departments where the branch decided to change things and even one where at one grade it was 100% seniority by choice and another grade chose 50/50

turbodiesel

This is an old union item seemingly for AO's https://forsatradeunion.newsweaver.com/designtest/p4hs0nt6b30

fin12

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/108748412#Comment_108748412

Don’t think that true, as I’ve seen people who have been awarded it who have less service than others who have gone for it. I think it’s actually pull that gets most people the scale. I don’t think it’s a fair system anyway.

rachaelworld

Hi there, does anyone know how to interpret 50% seniority and then 50% merit based requirements for the Higher Grade CO? Do you still have to have 2 years service to be eligible on merit do you know? And if so, does the 2 years service have to be when you apply or when the posts will be vacant as I see there seems to be a time lag between applying for and the availability of the higher pay grade if that makes sense?