Square plate washers for outdoor use!

cormie

Hey folks,
I'm looking to get about 300 square plate washers that need to be at least 4mm and 50x50mm with an M8 hole in the middle.

Having great difficulty finding any for a reasonable price, seems there's plenty of 50x50x3 options out there and pricing seems affordable, but anything above 4mm (I've seen 5 and 6mm options) is coming in maybe 5/10 times more expensive.

If anyone would know where I could get them at a reasonable price I'd appreciate any help.

I can get 100 for £17 here: https://www.orbitalfasteners.co.uk/en/products/m8-x-40-x-5mm-mild-steel-square-plate-washer-bright-zinc-plated-din-436

But they are:

M8 40x40 x 5 zinc, instead of:
M8 50x50 x 5 zinc.

Also very affordable are these ones:

http://www.directchannel.uk.com/square-plate-washer-m8-3b50?search=square%20plate%20washer

M8 50x50 x 3 zinc plated, £11 something for 100!!

Any feedback would be great!

Lumen

I think hot dip galvanized is better than zinc for outdoor applications. Zinc coating is very thin.

I don't think you'll find that exact size you're looking for off the shelf. Washers tend to be standard (DIN?) sizes, e.g. "DIN 436 - Square Washers for wood constructions".

https://www.fasteners.eu/standards/DIN/436/

But that DIN standard doesn't got down to M8.

You could presumably use 2x3mm, since you don't seem bothered about the exact thickness.

Or you can get them made for you, e.g.

https://www.metrofixings.co.uk/main/maincat/getCatitem/Square%20Plate%20Washers%20Hot%20Dip%20Galvanised/4299/0/0/1

"Generally available in 3mm & 5mm thick. However, any size can be made.".

I've used both metrofixings and westfieldfasteners and both were fine.

I've nothing against Irish suppliers except their websites tend to be terrible.

cormie

Thanks a lot for that. I can get a 6m length of 5mm x 50 steel for 17eur, but this isn't dipped and I'd need to drill about 270 holes and cut it loads of times too, so probably be way too much effort.

They are to go on the bottom of a van to reinforce some tracking rails, do you reckon galvanised is best or would zinc be ok for that? Also, an SQI has told me 4mm minimum, so I'm not sure if they'd accept 2x 3mm, if having two lessens the integrity, probably not, but not sure it'd be accepted.

Lumen

cormie wrote: »

They are to go on the bottom of a van to reinforce some tracking rails, do you reckon galvanised is best or would zinc be ok for that

Underneath the van? If they're going to get anywhere near blasts of salty road grit, I wouldn't skimp.

CJhaughey

Hot dip for that job for sure, and if they are going on a Transit or Sprinter get some isolating washers so the body of the van doesn't act like a sacrificial anode and corrode away in front of your eyes.

cormie

Yep, underneath the van!

I was thinking would some kinda seal be good to have if I'm drilling through the floor of the van... would isolating washers do? should I apply any sealant too? The side panels will be cut out to install windows too, I remember seeing that the cut edge should be filed and have 2/3 coats of a sealant applied before the rubber u channel goes on and then the window.. Would the isolating washers be enough I wonder? I'm guessing they are a rubber/silicone that go on the underside and just prevent water getting up?

Or maybe it's be better to schultz the whole underbody once the plates are all in place?

colm_mcm

Am I right in thinking you want 300 of them?

cormie

Yup I say it in the first post and it's not a typo unfortunately!

Seems nowhere does them though, tried another few places today in IRE and UK

salmocab

Have you tried an electrical wholesalers? Square washers for unistrut.
Actually sorry they’d be 40 x 40

colm_mcm

cormie wrote: »

Yup I say it in the first post and it's not a typo unfortunately!

Seems nowhere does them though, tried another few places today in IRE and UK

Is it normal to have so many fixings in the rails? Would you not need a much bigger spreading plate than that?

Odelay

cormie wrote: »

Yup I say it in the first post and it's not a typo unfortunately!

Seems nowhere does them though, tried another few places today in IRE and UK

300? There will be more washers than van?

CJhaughey

Just a suggestion, if the tracks are straight and there isn't too much under the body in the way , you could get plates made up from 5mm flat bar and have holes drilled to the hole centres of the track, instead of loads of washers just use a long flat bar where you can, if there is protrusions then work around them.
The flat bar will be easier to get galvanised and will require less individual fixings.

cormie

Have been told 50x50x4mm is ok for the spreader plate and have been told every hole should be bolted. It's 6 x 4.5m rails (2 rails per seat, 3 seats per row), quick release to position them anywhere in the van, with holes every 100mm, so about 270 holes :eek:

Was thinking about the bar, but then if I'm cutting the bar, this would leave exposed edges, plus it might be tricky to line up the holes to drill throough, as opposed to the square washers being pre drileld and dipped covering the whole thing, so might be a better option?

listermint

300 does seem like a huge amount will there be any floor left ?

What are you holding down.

Presumably you are putting down two lines of rails in the rear. What is there in there 4 meters lenght each rail ? So putting them in every 50mm I presume ?

Seems excessive . Is it because your using m8. I'd increase the bar and lower the number of points


Tbh I'd adjust the design completely anyone thats converted a van will tell you. You won't be repositioning the seats ever. Stick with a simple design and be happy with it.

Your creating a savage amount of unnecessary work there . Get some advice off someone that's done it before moving seats once they are in and down simply doesn't happen. Put in fixed locations and take out seats from those locations as you need passenger's

Melodeon

Could you go to M10?:
https://www.ie.screwfix.com/sabrefix-m10-square-plate-washers-galvanised-50-x-50mm-pk50.html
Even using your chosen M8, I'm sure you'll be putting a plain washer under the nut anyway...


That number if fixings for the application you describe sounds ludicrous to me, but if that's what the customer/insurance/engineer want... :rolleyes:

Slanty

Length of 50x4 flat and a machine shop would drill the holes every 100mm.

Wouldn’t be to expensive.

cormie

Thanks a lot for the replies. This is for a conversion and putting seats in the back, I want to have flexibility to move and remove seating and other items with quick release brackets depending on amount of people traveling. I plan to put a table and maybe some other things on quick release clamps too, so would be best to have the rails cover the full length of the floor. You're probably right about not really re positioning the seating, but it's the flexibility to have the rails down for other things at later stages I'd like too. I'm just doing the basics now to get the vehicle class changed and as budget allows later, will work on getting things more plush and comfortable.

So these are what I need to fix:

https://www.koller.co.uk/product/rails-amp-bonded-floors/2/low-profile-rail/18/

These have pre drilled M8 holes so I'll be buying these alongside them:

https://www.koller.co.uk/product/rails-amp-bonded-floors/2/m8-rail-fixing-set-10pcs-/31/


I then need reinforcement to go on the underside of the floor which is what I wanted the square plate washers for. Reinforcement for each hole needs to be at least 50x50x4 for it to pass SQI inspection.

Melodeon, there's no indication as to thickness of them, I'm guessing 2.5/3mm, I asked the engineer would 2 of these work, instead of trying to find 50x50x4 and he said:

"most people would go to a metal fabricator and get them to cut to size and drill the holes out of a sheet of 4mm plate, I think this would be cheapest option."

Which is what Slanty and I think some others have suggested already here too...

What I'm worried about that, is that if the holes are off slightly, the whole thing will be messed up. Also, if I'm to cut it myself, then every cut edge won't be galvanised. At least with 300 individual plates, there will be no cut edges and this could be much better for the floor/van long term

CJhaughey

cormie wrote: »

"most people would go to a metal fabricator and get them to cut to size and drill the holes out of a sheet of 4mm plate, I think this would be cheapest option."

Which is what Slanty and I think some others have suggested already here too...

What I'm worried about that, is that if the holes are off slightly, the whole thing will be messed up. Also, if I'm to cut it myself, then every cut edge won't be galvanised. At least with 300 individual plates, there will be no cut edges and this could be much better for the floor/van long term

Get them made in mild steel at whatever thickness you need. Then once you have trial fitted them and checked that all the holes are fine, take them to Galco or another galvanising company and get them hot dip galvanised.
It won't be that expensive and will be a far better job.

DublinDilbert

Screwfix sell them in bags of 50 https://www.screwfix.com/p/sabrefix-m12-square-plate-washers-galvanised-dx275-50mm-x-50mm-50-pack/28801

Try somewhere that fits tow-bars, these use to be used on the older style hitches, when drilling / bolting into the boot floor. not sure about the newer ones.

cormie

CJhaughey wrote: »

Get them made in mild steel at whatever thickness you need. Then once you have trial fitted them and checked that all the holes are fine, take them to Galco or another galvanising company and get them hot dip galvanised.
It won't be that expensive and will be a far better job.

Seems like it will take far more time this way then just getting square washers though? Far more measuring, far more chance to make mistakes, then having to go back and forth and then to get them hot dipped and all too

The problem is, I was gonna get someone more experienced, based in Ashbourne, to do the trickier holes, around the fuel tank (so them dropping it) and around the cross beams and other problem areas.. for them to get the basic alignment right and stick maybe 5/6 in place per rail to ensure the rails are aligned and set up right, then I could do the remaining 240 or so holes just with the square washers, would just need drill, bolt and tighten so no real room for mistakes. If I was to have to hop up and down to Ashbourne take off what they had already done to get it hot dipped etc it would add a lot of time to the job

DublinDilbert wrote: »

Screwfix sell them in bags of 50 https://www.screwfix.com/p/sabrefix-m12-square-plate-washers-galvanised-dx275-50mm-x-50mm-50-pack/28801

Try somewhere that fits tow-bars, these use to be used on the older style hitches, when drilling / bolting into the boot floor. not sure about the newer ones.

I had a look at the brands website and unfortunately as suspected, they aren't thick enough:

2.5 mm pre-galvanised mild steel to BS EN 10142 DX51D Z275
or HR4 Self Colour mild steel

cormie

Another advantage of going with the individual ones is that if it's a 50mm square plate, every 100mm, that'd be only 25mm on either side of the hole, meaning a 50mm gap between plates, meaning it'd be less weight overall and an ever so slightly higher payload :pac:

cormie

5am surfing sometimes pays off :pac:

I may have found something suitable...

http://www.tecoproducts.co.uk/fixings/square-plate-washers

They have:

Hot Dipped Galvanised
WSQPGM10X50X5 Sq. Plate Washer Galv M10 50 x 50 5

So M10 instead of M8, but I'm hoping it won't be an issue with what I'm buying quoted below? Also, with the corrosion warning?

• Always ensure that compatible corrosion resistant nuts & washers are used, i.e. do not use galvanised nuts & washers with stainless steel studding or vice versa.

cormie wrote: »

So these are what I need to fix:

https://www.koller.co.uk/product/rails-amp-bonded-floors/2/low-profile-rail/18/

These have pre drilled M8 holes so I'll be buying these alongside them:

https://www.koller.co.uk/product/rails-amp-bonded-floors/2/m8-rail-fixing-set-10pcs-/31/

cormie

Got a quote back... more expensive than it'd cost to get 900 2.5mm ones from screwfix

300 WSQPGM10X50X5 1.0110 48 157.71
M10 x 50 x 5 Sq Plate Washer Galv
Delivered to: Notes: 157.71 Value of Goods
Carriage 0.00
Sub Total 157.71
VAT @ 20% 31.54
Invoice Total 189.25

and delivery:
A) Ireland: £110 +VAT
Northern Ireland: £42.30 +VAT
C) UK Mainland: £17.50 +VAT

If zinc plated turn out to be much cheaper, would it be foolish to try save a few bob getting zinc instead of galvanised for this application I wonder?

Lumen

M10 washers with M8 bolts seems like a very bad idea.

cormie

Can't find much online about using a bigger washer than bolt. Do you reckon it wouldn't be a good idea? If it's just M10 it wouldn't be that big a step up and there's the included washer with the bolts I' dbe getting which would sit over it too.. Also given there's so many nuts going into the rails, it might be fine?

cormie

CJhaughey wrote: »

Hot dip for that job for sure, and if they are going on a Transit or Sprinter get some isolating washers so the body of the van doesn't act like a sacrificial anode and corrode away in front of your eyes.

Hey again, I've remembered your advice above and looking at where to pick these up. I didn't have time to ring around properly today and Google isn't showing much, but I did ring a local place and they weren't sure what I was talking about re isolating washers, but when I explained they said the closest thing they'd have would be the rubber washers they'd sell for putting on taps. Would these do I wonder, or is there specific isolating washers I should be looking for?

Also, I'm thinking I might need to give a coat of some rust prevention or seal too? Should I apply this on each exposed bit of metal on each hole I drill through, or should the isolating washer be enough, or the other way around, if I seal, is there any need for an isolating washer?

CJhaughey

These ones from Ebay look good,
https://www.ebay.com/itm/100PCS-M3-M20-Clear-Nylon-Plastic-Soft-Gasket-Metric-Insulation-Flat-Washers-/323162722829

I would use some zinc rich paint to protect the body where its been drilled. and then cover it with some underbody coating to stop water getting stuck in place.
Bilt Hamber sell a good range of body coatings.
https://www.bilthamber.com/corrosion-protection-and-rust-treatments/electrox

cormie

Thanks a lot for that!

cormie

Damn, I should have looked into this sooner, seems the Bilt Hamber is pretty hard to get in Dublin and I need it this weekend.


http://www.detailingshed.com/ don't have it but suggested Dynax s50 or Dynax UC as something similar.


https://www.towandrestore.com/store/Category/Bilt_Hamber stock it but don't have any at the moment

Them Nylon Plastic Soft Gasket Metric Insulation Flat Washers from ebay are in China so no way I'll get them so might go with rubber ones from a plumb centre that are used on taps and that and hopefully they will suffice and be a similar price :pac:



EDIT: Turns out that S50 is by bilt hamber too, I rang them up to see what they'd go with between the Electrox and the S50 and the guy suggested the S50 for what I need it for as it should allow for better water resistance and flexibility and will mean I could remove the bolts easier than if I would use the electrox if I ever need to down the line. He said I wouldn't need anything too heavy duty if it's just the peripherals of the holes I need to coat.


EDIT 2: When on the phone to bilt hamber, they suggested I try Ej Fidgeon, turns out that's another trading name of Tow and Restore, so I rang them back and told the guy what I needed it for and he suggested to go with Hydra 80 instead for the holes and then just do a coat of Dynax UB/UC (Same as UB but clear) on the underside. I asked if he thought isolating washers were necessary and he said with using both Hydra 80 and UC, there should be no need, so I might just go with that setup. The only tricky part now is the Hydra 80 needs the temp to be around 18/20 degrees to dry within 30 minutes, otherwise at 5 degrees or so, it'll take overnight to dry.

CJhaughey

cormie wrote: »

Damn, I should have looked into this sooner, seems the Bilt Hamber is pretty hard to get in Dublin and I need it this weekend.


http://www.detailingshed.com/ don't have it but suggested Dynax s50 or Dynax UC as something similar.


https://www.towandrestore.com/store/Category/Bilt_Hamber stock it but don't have any at the moment

Them Nylon Plastic Soft Gasket Metric Insulation Flat Washers from ebay are in China so no way I'll get them so might go with rubber ones from a plumb centre that are used on taps and that and hopefully they will suffice and be a similar price :pac:



EDIT: Turns out that S50 is by bilt hamber too, I rang them up to see what they'd go with between the Electrox and the S50 and the guy suggested the S50 for what I need it for as it should allow for better water resistance and flexibility and will mean I could remove the bolts easier than if I would use the electrox if I ever need to down the line. He said I wouldn't need anything too heavy duty if it's just the peripherals of the holes I need to coat.


EDIT 2: When on the phone to bilt hamber, they suggested I try Ej Fidgeon, turns out that's another trading name of Tow and Restore, so I rang them back and told the guy what I needed it for and he suggested to go with Hydra 80 instead for the holes and then just do a coat of Dynax UB/UC (Same as UB but clear) on the underside. I asked if he thought isolating washers were necessary and he said with using both Hydra 80 and UC, there should be no need, so I might just go with that setup. The only tricky part now is the Hydra 80 needs the temp to be around 18/20 degrees to dry within 30 minutes, otherwise at 5 degrees or so, it'll take overnight to dry.

Have you got a hairdryer?

cormie

Haha, he actually said I could use a heat gun, which I have, just wondering how long it might take standing at each of the 270 holes, if it's gonna take even 5 minutes, that's a lot of time :pac:

durrans

You can try Bolt World Fasteners Ltd they also have some good promotions and reasonable pricing.

colm_mcm

Have you got their phone number?