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Rear extension no planning needed

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  • 15-11-2018 6:09pm
    #1
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭


    Hi ,

    With regards doing a rear extension < 40m2 and no higher than the existing structure leaving over 25m2 space in the garden space for the house occupants I understand that no palnning is needed.

    Do I HAVE to apply for Application for Declaration of Exempted Development under Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act 2000? However

    Can I proceed with the build or must I get the above reviewed by the council?

    Regards
    d


«1

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    #2
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    No you don’t have to apply for a section 5.

    Ask your builder who is signing off on the structural elements, foundations, roof structure and any steel works.

    You should engage a professional to technically design (insulation, airtightness and structure amongst others) who will then issue Certificates of compliance on completion. This should include opinion of exemption also.


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    #3
    Gileadi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Gileadi


    kceire wrote: »

    You should engage a professional to technically design (insulation, airtightness and structure amongst others) who will then issue Certificates of compliance on completion. This should include opinion of exemption also.

    If works are exempt from planning no Cert of Compliance on Completion is required as not under the building control regulations. Needless to say compliance with relevant building regs is required though.


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    #4
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Gileadi wrote: »
    If works are exempt from planning no Cert of Compliance on Completion is required as not under the building control regulations. Needless to say compliance with relevant building regs is required though.

    Incorrect.
    Certs are required to release any funds for the project, also should the OP ever go to remortgage or sell, then the certs are required.

    2 certs are required from the designer.
    1. Opinion on compliance with building regulations.
    2. Opinion on compliance with the planning regulations, specifically the exempted development regulations.


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    #5
    Gileadi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Gileadi


    Where did the OP say he was getting a loan/mortgage? That’s a stipulation of the financial institution.

    He also does not require opinion of compliance with building regs, or opinion of exemption from planning. While these are nice to have, they are not ‘required’ as you state.


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    #6
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    Gileadi wrote: »
    Where did the OP say he was getting a loan/mortgage? That’s a stipulation of the financial institution.

    He also does not require opinion of compliance with building regs, or opinion of exemption from planning. While these are nice to have, they are not ‘required’ as you state.

    They will be required should the OP sell in the future.


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    #7
    Gileadi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Gileadi


    I still think they fall into the nice to have category rather than required.

    But I will agree that it is much handier to have these certs completed when the work is carried out than trying to get a different Arch/Eng to sign them years down the line.


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    #8
    Penn
    Registered Users Posts: 33,303 ✭✭✭✭Penn


    Gileadi wrote: »
    I still think they fall into the nice to have category rather than required.

    But I will agree that it is much handier to have these certs completed when the work is carried out than trying to get a different Arch/Eng to sign them years down the line.

    A different Arch/Eng won't be able to sign them off in the future without carrying out significant investigatory works. No Arch/Eng is going to be able to sign off that the extension was built in accordance with building regs if they don't know what the foundations are like, what the ground is like, do structural members have the right bearing, is the wallplate properly fixed, are joists and rafter properly strapped, were wall ties spaced correctly etc.

    A cert of Compliance with Building Regs based on a visual inspection only of the works as completed means very little. A proper one is more than a nice to have. Admittedly, it's a should-have rather than a must-have, but it's absolutely more than a nice-to-have.


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    #9
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭dzilla


    Penn wrote: »
    A different Arch/Eng won't be able to sign them off in the future without carrying out significant investigatory works. No Arch/Eng is going to be able to sign off that the extension was built in accordance with building regs if they don't know what the foundations are like, what the ground is like, do structural members have the right bearing, is the wallplate properly fixed, are joists and rafter properly strapped, were wall ties spaced correctly etc.

    A cert of Compliance with Building Regs based on a visual inspection only of the works as completed means very little. A proper one is more than a nice to have. Admittedly, it's a should-have rather than a must-have, but it's absolutely more than a nice-to-have.


    Yes my builder has an engineer how would certify all of this


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    #10
    Gileadi
    Registered Users Posts: 1,126 ✭✭✭Gileadi


    Penn wrote: »
    A different Arch/Eng won't be able to sign them off in the future without carrying out significant investigatory works. No Arch/Eng is going to be able to sign off that the extension was built in accordance with building regs if they don't know what the foundations are like, what the ground is like, do structural members have the right bearing, is the wallplate properly fixed, are joists and rafter properly strapped, were wall ties spaced correctly etc.

    A cert of Compliance with Building Regs based on a visual inspection only of the works as completed means very little. A proper one is more than a nice to have. Admittedly, it's a should-have rather than a must-have, but it's absolutely more than a nice-to-have.

    An opinion of compliance is possible based on a visual inspection, it isn't ideal but it is done. The cert in all practical terms is next to worthless but solicitors accept them regularly in conveyancy.

    Example being somebody who has done a rear extension 20 years ago and is now wishing to sell, no designer involvement during construction, Steel beam installed to support rear first floor wall and small lean to extension built. Are you saying that no Arch/Engineer will sign a (heavily conditioned) opinion of compliance? Because my experience has shown that many are operating in this area.

    The OP asked what he needs to satisfy the council. Thats the questions I've been answering. Somewhere along the thread this has morphed into what he should have, which wasn't the question.


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    #11
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    dzilla wrote: »
    Yes my builder has an engineer how would certify all of this

    Engineer should be independent and working for you, not the builder.
    Ask the builder what Certificates his Engineer will be giving you on completion.


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    #12
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭dzilla


    kceire wrote: »
    Engineer should be independent and working for you, not the builder.
    Ask the builder what Certificates his Engineer will be giving you on completion.

    OK will do thanks


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    #13
    jmBuildExt
    Registered Users Posts: 692 ✭✭✭jmBuildExt


    dzilla wrote: »
    Hi ,

    Do I HAVE to apply for Application for Declaration of Exempted Development under Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act 2000? However

    d

    You dont HAVE to.... But get this done for your own peace of mind. Its 80 euros.
    I had a design done up by an architect, that was supposed to be exempt. Had we went ahead with it, he would have signed off as being exempt after we built it.
    But he (and the 3 other people in his firm who looked at the design) missed this detail (genuine mistake, he was very embarrassed). It wasn't until I applied for section 5 declaration that I noticed one of the windows was too close to the boundary.

    This would have brought up a whole pile of issues had it arisen when i went to sell.


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    #14
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    jmBuildExt wrote: »
    You dont HAVE to.... But get this done for your own peace of mind. Its 80 euros.
    I had a design done up by an architect, that was supposed to be exempt. Had we went ahead with it, he would have signed off as being exempt after we built it.
    But he (and the 3 other people in his firm who looked at the design) missed this detail (genuine mistake, he was very embarrassed). It wasn't until I applied for section 5 declaration that I noticed one of the windows was too close to the boundary.

    This would have brought up a whole pile of issues had it arisen when i went to sell.

    Just to add to this, the application fee is only €80. That doesn’t include the drawings prepared or the OSi Map. So expect fees from whoever prepares the plans.

    The window fac8ng the boundary is a silly mistake alright, I assume he was showing it less than 1m at ground floor?


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    #15
    doug82
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭doug82


    dzilla wrote: »
    Hi ,

    With regards doing a rear extension < 40m2 and no higher than the existing structure leaving over 25m2 space in the garden space for the house occupants I understand that no palnning is needed.

    Do I HAVE to apply for Application for Declaration of Exempted Development under Section 5 of the Planning and Development Act 2000? However

    Can I proceed with the build or must I get the above reviewed by the council?

    Regards
    d

    You absolutely do not have get a section 5. The rules for this exemption are simple. As an experienced planning consultant I would advise to steer clear of any unnecessary planning process


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    #16
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭dzilla


    Thank you all very useful information and I am 1000% confident all cirteria has been met to satisfy planning exemption.

    One more thing, the previous owner built a garage in the 90s out the back and got retention on it in 1997. Can anybody confirm that the 20m2 in the garage does not now eat into my 40m2 for my new extension?


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    #17
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    dzilla wrote: »
    Thank you all very useful information and I am 1000% confident all cirteria has been met to satisfy planning exemption.

    One more thing, the previous owner built a garage in the 90s out the back and got retention on it in 1997. Can anybody confirm that the 20m2 in the garage does not now eat into my 40m2 for my new extension?

    It does eat into your exemption, planning or otherwise.
    It reduces how big you can now build without going for planning.

    Your new extension can only be 20 sq. M to be exempted.

    Class 1
    2(a)
    2. (a) Where the house has been extended previously, the floor area of any such extension, taken together with the floor area of any previous extension or extensions constructed or erected after 1 October 1964, including those for which planning permission has been obtained, shall not exceed 40 square metres.

    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print


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    #18
    doug82
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭doug82


    It if it still used as a garage it doesn't eat into your 40sqm as a garage is not an extension.


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    #19
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭dzilla


    kceire wrote: »
    It does eat into your exemption, planning or otherwise.
    It reduces how big you can now build without going for planning.

    Your new extension can only be 20 sq. M to be exempted.

    Class 1
    2(a)



    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print

    That would be a problem now : (
    doug82 wrote: »
    It if it still used as a garage it doesn't eat into your 40sqm as a garage is not an extension.

    it is still used as a garage/garden store as is what the retention was applied for in 1997.


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    #20
    doug82
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭doug82


    dzilla wrote: »
    That would be a problem now : (



    it is still used as a garage/garden store as is what the retention was applied for in 1997.

    Then it doesn't reduce your exemption as a garage/store is not an extension to your house.


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    #21
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭dzilla


    kceire wrote: »
    It does eat into your exemption, planning or otherwise.
    It reduces how big you can now build without going for planning.

    Your new extension can only be 20 sq. M to be exempted.

    Class 1
    2(a)



    http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2001/si/600/made/en/print
    doug82 wrote: »
    It if it still used as a garage it doesn't eat into your 40sqm as a garage is not an extension.

    The garage is an independent structure it is not joined to the house.


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    #22
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭dzilla


    doug82 wrote: »
    Then it doesn't reduce your exemption as a garage/store is not an extension to your house.

    Thank you Doug I just called the planning office to confirm the same and they agreed.


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    #23
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    If you dont have 25sqm garden space, say you have 20sqm, what happens then? Do you need to keep a proportion of what you have as garden space? If you have a little over 25sqm, say 30sqm, does this mean you can only build a 5sqm extension?


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    #24
    doug82
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭doug82


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    If you dont have 25sqm garden space, say you have 20sqm, what happens then? Do you need to keep a proportion of what you have as garden space? If you have a little over 25sqm, say 30sqm, does this mean you can only build a 5sqm extension?

    If you only have 20sqm then you can't avail of the exemption. If you have 30sqm, you can build 5sqm


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    #25
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    doug82 wrote: »
    It if it still used as a garage it doesn't eat into your 40sqm as a garage is not an extension.
    dzilla wrote: »
    That would be a problem now : (



    it is still used as a garage/garden store as is what the retention was applied for in 1997.

    I was under the impression it was a converted garage attached to the house. Apologies.


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    #26
    cml387
    Registered Users Posts: 8,379 ✭✭✭cml387


    Out of curiosity, if a semi detached house already had a garage conversion( I.e garage attached to house now converted to living space) does this affect the size of the rear extension to be exempted.


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    #27
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    cml387 wrote: »
    Out of curiosity, if a semi detached house already had a garage conversion( I.e garage attached to house now converted to living space) does this affect the size of the rear extension to be exempted.

    Yes, it reduces the 40 Sq. M by the amount of the garage conversion.


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    #28
    dzilla
    Registered Users Posts: 1,780 ✭✭✭dzilla


    kceire wrote: »
    I was under the impression it was a converted garage attached to the house. Apologies.

    Hi Again,

    Apologies I wasn't clear. Believe it or not there is a garage internal to the house that was converted for domestic use in the 90s also, however this about 12m2 so it does not breach the 40m2 when added to the extension we are doing. Thanks so much for you input though as its all dawnting.

    d


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    #29
    BoardsMember
    Registered Users Posts: 4,442 ✭✭✭BoardsMember


    doug82 wrote: »
    If you only have 20sqm then you can't avail of the exemption. If you have 30sqm, you can build 5sqm

    Thanks. So you'd need to go for planning permission for a 10sqm. Is planning likely to be given where the remaining garden < 25sqm? Considering an urban location.


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    #30
    doug82
    Registered Users Posts: 43 ✭doug82


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Thanks. So you'd need to go for planning permission for a 10sqm. Is planning likely to be given where the remaining garden < 25sqm? Considering an urban location.

    It depends on location and size of the house. There would a better chance in city center than the suburbs for example


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    #31
    Gumbo
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 38,546 Mod ✭✭✭✭Gumbo


    BoardsMember wrote: »
    Thanks. So you'd need to go for planning permission for a 10sqm. Is planning likely to be given where the remaining garden < 25sqm? Considering an urban location.

    Yes, planning can be got. It’s not an automatic refusal because of the smaller garden. Have a look at all the inner city houses, some have 90% site coverage.

    But again, it’s site specific.


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