B.E.R. requirements

KFed

Just had a BER completed and the assessor refused to consider the fact the perimeter of the house is dry lined with with Kingspan boards. This is despite being able to visually see the insulation in a number of locations (for example, behind the kitchen units, at the air vents in the rooms and amongst other locations).

I understand absent a certifying architect or building surveyor no work this work can't be incorporated? It seems strange to me. You can literally touch and measure the insulation. Visually I don't see how it's different to the attic (where glass wool is visible)

If the insulating boards can be seen and measured at certain points then surely those verified boards can be included in the calculation?

Also, I got new windows (Nordan aluclad) and the BER assessor required certification of the windows from Kitemark and British Fenestration Registration Council. Are these requirements? Nordan had the U Values and Transmission Factor data and dimensions by window and I supplied all of this together with receipt (€20k) and he can clearly, touch and feel the windows (which are stamped with date of manufacture and origin). Why would BFRC / Kitemark certs be required?

Finally, all of my bulbs in the house (4 bed semi) are LED save for 3 Halogen spots in the bathroom. The report came back with low energy lighting is less than 50%. Surely 3 halogen spots can't distort to this extent?

My BER was D1 when I bought the house in 2013. After insulating and flooring attic, new rads, new gas boiler, new windows, new front door, dry lining all external walls and replacing all lighting (save for bathroom as mentioned) my new cert is D1 and the energy number has actually dis-improved.

Is it worth my while finding a new assessor?

I am speechless at the result.

sydthebeat

KFed wrote: »

Just had a BER completed and the assessor refused to consider the fact the perimeter of the house is dry lined with with Kingspan boards. This is despite being able to visually see the insulation in a number of locations (for example, behind the kitchen units, at the air vents in the rooms and amongst other locations).

did you open up the construction so he can measure and verify visually the type of insulation? was it obvious it was applied to all the walls?

if so, he should have included it.

KFed wrote: »

Also, I got new windows (Nordan aluclad) and the BER assessor required certification of the windows from Kitemark and British Fenestration Registration Council. Are these requirements? Nordan had the U Values and Transmission Factor data and dimensions by window and I supplied all of this together with receipt (€20k) and he can clearly, touch and feel the windows (which are stamped with date of manufacture and origin). Why would BFRC / Kitemark certs be required?

if the NORDAN certs refer to applicable testing standards ( IS EN SO 12567-1, ISO 10077-1 , or IS EN SO 10077-2) then they should be acceptable.
alternatively an assessor can accept

all non default data used in calculations must be obtained from
accredited sources. These sources can include the Irish Agrement Board (IAB), the British Board of Agrement (BBA) and the British Fenestration Rating Council (BFRC). Table 6a of the DEAP Manual gives values that can be used in the absence of test data or calculated values. All test certificates must be in English or accompanied by an English translation.

Finally, all of my bulbs in the house (4 bed semi) are LED save for 3 Halogen spots in the bathroom. The report came back with low energy lighting is less than 50%. Surely 3 halogen spots can't distort to this extent?

unless theres only 6 light bulbs in your house, then somethings up. some reasons for the confusion may be:
1. its the number of bulbs counted, not the fittings... so sometimes a light fitting can have numerous bulbs so the bulbs are counted, not the fitting.
2. if a bulb isnt working or missing its counted as non lel
3. if theres no access to the bulb to verify its counted as non lel
4. The C rated halogen bulbs that are popular these days are NOT LELs

KFed

sydthebeat wrote: »

did you open up the construction so he can measure and verify visually the type of insulation? was it obvious it was applied to all the walls?

if so, he should have included it.

So the house was refurbed in 2016. The insulation is kingspan xtratherm. I could show him this in several locations. The boards are laid in the attic under plywood sheets, some, not all screwed down as the stira fitter unscrewed sole in fitting that and placed back down.

In the walls then it is the same boards. I can remove the air vents in each room (at eye level) and you can see the kingspan affixed there and measure the depth. It's obvious then that each wall, same depth, in the perimeter has been done (vent in each room upstairs to visually check).

Downstairs it's the same story. The boards are visible in the kitchen where the boiler exhaust meets the wall. Can measure the depth here also as there is a cut out for an electrical wiring or fixing.

In the hall the e.s.b. box is not insulated, the rest of wall is. So the wall has a different depth, which is the insulation. You couldn't see it here but can infer from the additional depth that it's there. If needs be I could have popped off a window ledge saddle board to show it also. Same for all other rooms. The assessor blanket refused though. Unless I had a supervising architect or building surveyor to provide a cert he wouldn't accept it.



if the NORDAN certs refer to applicable testing standards ( IS EN SO 12567-1, ISO 10077-1 , or IS EN SO 10077-2) then they should be acceptable.
alternatively an assessor can accept




unless theres only 6 light bulbs in your house, then somethings up. some reasons for the confusion may be:
1. its the number of bulbs counted, not the fittings... so sometimes a light fitting can have numerous bulbs so the bulbs are counted, not the fitting.
2. if a bulb isnt working or missing its counted as non lel
3. if theres no access to the bulb to verify its counted as non lel
4. The C rated halogen bulbs that are popular these days are NOT LELs

Yeah the bulbs are all philips l.e.d. a+ rating just checked woodies website. This includes 5x gu10's on a kitchen fitting. Literally ever room was done, I swapped all old bulbs and bought bulb for July l.e.d. including 2x l.e.d. for vintage bulbs.

I'm astonished. B.e.r now is worse than 2013 despite spending ten's of thousands of this stuff.

caesarthechimp

KFed wrote: »

If the insulating boards can be seen and measured at certain points then surely those verified boards can be included in the calculation?

They can for that facade, so for a semi-d you would need three such points exposed, one on each exposed facade. Assuming no extensions.

Also, I got new windows (Nordan aluclad) and the BER assessor required certification of the windows from Kitemark and British Fenestration Registration Council. Are these requirements? Nordan had the U Values and Transmission Factor data and dimensions by window and I supplied all of this together with receipt (€20k) and he can clearly, touch and feel the windows (which are stamped with date of manufacture and origin). Why would BFRC / Kitemark certs be required?

That's a bit tricky because the Nordan data is calculated for each individual window, and then averaged out at the end for all the window sizes and types present. Whereas the data on the certs is for a notional standard sized window, and that can definitely be used directly in the standard calculation.

Finally, all of my bulbs in the house (4 bed semi) are LED save for 3 Halogen spots in the bathroom. The report came back with low energy lighting is less than 50%. Surely 3 halogen spots can't distort to this extent?

Seems wrong alright. You could work out the % yourself. Don't count any table lamps.

My BER was D1 when I bought the house in 2013. After insulating and flooring attic, new rads, new gas boiler, new windows, new front door, dry lining all external walls and replacing all lighting (save for bathroom as mentioned) my new cert is D1 and the energy number has actually dis-improved.

New boiler is a biggy. If you replaced a regular boiler with a condensing one, that alone would improve the rating by a grade or so.

Is it worth my while finding a new assessor?

If you're selling, ask the estate agent what its worth to have a C rating instead of a D.

I am speechless at the result.

Not surprised.


In fairness though, years of severe auditing has weeded out any assessors who gave householders the benefit of any doubt. The assessor who always uses the most pessimistic default option will pass any audit with flying colours, while others will tend to accumulate penalty points.
That does not excuse actual mistakes or laziness though.

KFed

caesarthechimp wrote: »

They can for that facade, so for a semi-d you would need three such points exposed, one on each exposed facade. Assuming no extensions.

That's a bit tricky because the Nordan data is calculated for each individual window, and then averaged out at the end for all the window sizes and types present. Whereas the data on the certs is for a notional standard sized window, and that can definitely be used directly in the standard calculation.

Seems wrong alright. You could work out the % yourself. Don't count any table lamps.

New boiler is a biggy. If you replaced a regular boiler with a condensing one, that alone would improve the rating by a grade or so.

If you're selling, ask the estate agent what its worth to have a C rating instead of a D.
Not surprised.


In fairness though, years of severe auditing has weeded out any assessors who gave householders the benefit of any doubt. The assessor who always uses the most pessimistic default option will pass any audit with flying colours, while others will tend to accumulate penalty points.
That does not excuse actual mistakes or laziness though.

Thanks, I get the impression the assessor was erring so far on the side of caution he was ignoring his own eyes and logic. I don't know if that was because he had been burned recently on an audit or was new to the game but either way, there was no chance of anything being included unless he had a certificate for the files.

Can anyone recommend a b.e.r assessor, I am d9 based. I am not looking for anyone dodgy, just someone who can use common sense in that if I can show the insulation in the walls (visible in each room at air vents, measurable by depth) that will accept this as evidence.