Accountant fees farm accounts

jntsnk

Hi
What are fellas been charged for doing the accounts ever year.I have a large beef farm but nothing complicated with invoices and receipts. No complaints with my accountants work but it’s costing €2200. He would usually complete the accounts in a few days once submitted.

Mooooo

jntsnk wrote: »

Hi
What are fellas been charged for doing the accounts ever year.I have a large beef farm but nothing complicated with invoices and receipts. No complaints with my accountants work but it’s costing €2200. He would usually complete the accounts in a few days once submitted.

Anything else in that? Are they sent in organised or in a pile? Financial advice etc?. If it's just solely accounts it's dear

jntsnk

Mooooo wrote: »

Anything else in that? Are they sent in organised or in a pile? Financial advice etc?. If it's just solely accounts it's dear

All sent in as separate files, as Bank,Sales and SFP receipts , Miscellaneous Bills, Coop statements, Medical bills,etc......
Items would be highlighted for farm or personal use on statements.
Yes access to financial advice if needed but generally that’s once or never in the the year.

whelan2

jntsnk wrote: »

All sent in as separate files, as Bank,Sales and SFP receipts , Miscellaneous Bills, Coop statements, Medical bills,etc......
Items would be highlighted for farm or personal use on statements.
Yes access to financial advice if needed but generally that’s once or never in the the year.

You're paying way too much. I was too and told them reduce the fees or I'm gone. They reduced the fees. Paying alot less than you

Limestone Cowboy

Paying 550 here but I go through all dockets/receipts/bank statments/stubs before I give them to them and do up an excel sheet and forward it on to them aswell.

Ten Pin

Get a copy of the returns & accounts and see if you can do them yourself. If the accountant is reluctant to hand over the returns, just mention GDPR.

If you can get a spreadsheet of all the figures, that would make it even easier to see what goes where in the return.

Dinzee Conlee

Limestone Cowboy wrote: »

Paying 550 here but I go through all dockets/receipts/bank statments/stubs before I give them to them and do up an excel sheet and forward it on to them aswell.

Same as this... Everything gets put into excel (income, expenses, bank statements) major receipts / incomes are scanned in. All is emailed to accountant...

Paying ~500 plus VAT (so ~600)

This is just for accounts, no financial advice to speak off...

I would be very small time though, to put it into context - the accountant bill of ~600 would be one of my larger expenses, along with insurance...

KAMG

I'm an accountant and part time farmer. We do plenty of farm accounts. Prices range from 350 plus VAT to 1800 plus VAT for farmers here. Its very possible to get the annual accounts for a farm done for 600 including VAT. But the key is that records must be good. At the end of the day its self assessment. We do the figures but nothing gets submitted to Revenue without client approval. We cant just make things up if we get a plastic bag full of crap. You wouldn't believe the sort of records some clients sent into us. And that applies to all sorts of clients not just farmers. And another thing some of you complaining about high accountant fees often forget. We work on a time recording system here. Some clients pop in for a 'chat' about all sorts of stuff throughout the year whenever they are in town and have a half hour to kill. That's grand. They are more than welcome. But at the end of the day, when filling in our diaries, when are we to put that time to only to their time card. So it all adds up throughout a year.

anthony500_1

350+ vat here for small suckler farm with a turn over of about 10k-12k. Everything would be fairly straight forward. Separate farm bank account, and reciepts put in 6 or 7 separate envelopes according to what they are for

Bass Reeves

900 including vat. This includes paye returns for the young lad, small share account, rented house return, medical bills and adjusting out PAYE income into the returns.

Bills are separated into cash and non cash receipts. Cash receipts are split into car, utilities and farm cash receipts. VAT receipts are separated as well. Bank and cop statements are put in monthly order. On the day bank statements and cheque book are gone through about an hour. Usually there us a few things missing and a few follow up.

KAMG

Bass Reeves wrote: »

900 including vat. This includes paye returns for the young lad, small share account, rented house return, medical bills and adjusting out PAYE income into the returns.

Bills are separated into cash and non cash receipts. Cash receipts are split into car, utilities and farm cash receipts. VAT receipts are separated as well. Bank and cop statements are put in monthly order. On the day bank statements and cheque book are gone through about an hour. Usually there us a few things missing and a few follow up.

That sounds pretty much how much we would charge you if you were our client too.

Bass Reeves

KAMG wrote: »

That sounds pretty much how much we would charge you if you were our client too.

No happy enough with bill if it was above 1K I be shopping around . TBF VAT is 170 euro on the bill so 730 would be fees less vat.

jd06

Limestone Cowboy wrote:

Paying 550 here but I go through all dockets/receipts/bank statments/stubs before I give them to them and do up an excel sheet and forward it on to them aswell.

Ya I do the same, same money

Oldira

KAMG wrote: »

I'm an accountant and part time farmer. We do plenty of farm accounts. Prices range from 350 plus VAT to 1800 plus VAT for farmers here. Its very possible to get the annual accounts for a farm done for 600 including VAT. But the key is that records must be good. At the end of the day its self assessment. We do the figures but nothing gets submitted to Revenue without client approval. We cant just make things up if we get a plastic bag full of crap. You wouldn't believe the sort of records some clients sent into us. And that applies to all sorts of clients not just farmers. And another thing some of you complaining about high accountant fees often forget. We work on a time recording system here. Some clients pop in for a 'chat' about all sorts of stuff throughout the year whenever they are in town and have a half hour to kill. That's grand. They are more than welcome. But at the end of the day, when filling in our diaries, when are we to put that time to only to their time card. So it all adds up throughout a year.

Yeah, me too. I'd have farmers who buy and sell a lot and would have turnovers close to 500k plus VAT returns. Others are just a quick income and expenditure.To do a VAT return takes time is there are lots of receipts. Saying your turnover is low but then dropping in a bag with the years pub and grocery receipts included is a joke. It takes time to sort that.
BTW that vast majority of lads that try and do it yourself eventually come running to some accountant to clean up the mess they have made.If you wont operate on your own cow then dont try and do your own tax return!m

kk.man

Bass Reeves wrote: »

900 including vat. This includes paye returns for the young lad, small share account, rented house return, medical bills and adjusting out PAYE income into the returns.

Bills are separated into cash and non cash receipts. Cash receipts are split into car, utilities and farm cash receipts. VAT receipts are separated as well. Bank and cop statements are put in monthly order. On the day bank statements and cheque book are gone through about an hour. Usually there us a few things missing and a few follow up.

I'm about 750 incl vat on much the same except no house rental any more, thank God!

Dickie10

1000, and i have all credits and debits on an excel spreadsheet

maidhc

Ten Pin wrote: »

Get a copy of the returns & accounts and see if you can do them yourself. If the accountant is reluctant to hand over the returns, just mention GDPR.

If you can get a spreadsheet of all the figures, that would make it even easier to see what goes where in the return.

Horrific horrific advice. Personally I think the fee the accountant chargers is subsidiary to the job they do. Good tax advice is the cheapest thing you can get.

Dakota Dan

KAMG wrote: »

I'm an accountant and part time farmer. We do plenty of farm accounts. Prices range from 350 plus VAT to 1800 plus VAT for farmers here. Its very possible to get the annual accounts for a farm done for 600 including VAT. But the key is that records must be good. At the end of the day its self assessment. We do the figures but nothing gets submitted to Revenue without client approval. We cant just make things up if we get a plastic bag full of crap. You wouldn't believe the sort of records some clients sent into us. And that applies to all sorts of clients not just farmers. And another thing some of you complaining about high accountant fees often forget. We work on a time recording system here. Some clients pop in for a 'chat' about all sorts of stuff throughout the year whenever they are in town and have a half hour to kill. That's grand. They are more than welcome. But at the end of the day, when filling in our diaries, when are we to put that time to only to their time card. So it all adds up throughout a year.

Jaysus, I'd be only calling into the accountant only when absolutely necessary.

Dakota Dan

Just basic accounts here for small dairy farm no tax advice, it was supposed to be 500 when I changed over to him a few yeas ago and he ended up charging 700. He said if my profit goes up he'll be charging more which I find strange.

sea12

I’m 500 for small farming plus have a house rental and maybe sell some shares so some cgt also.

However I have everything laid out in excel, cgt calculated

My problem is he talks an hour of ****e talk about rugby or policits and 5 mins on the accounts. I find it very unprofessional. All I want is to go in and go through accounts highlight any issues or ideas and go.
Seriously you’d have a headache coming out of the meeting

White Clover

sea12 wrote: »

I’m 500 for small farming plus have a house rental and maybe sell some shares so some cgt also.

However I have everything laid out in excel, cgt calculated

My problem is he talks an hour of ****e talk about rugby or policits and 5 mins on the accounts. I find it very unprofessional. All I want is to go in and go through accounts highlight any issues or ideas and go.
Seriously you’d have a headache coming out of the meeting

Be prepared to stall him up the next time he starts waffling!

older by the day

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Just basic accounts here for small dairy farm no tax advice, it was supposed to be 500 when I changed over to him a few yeas ago and he ended up charging 700. He said if my profit goes up he'll be charging more which I find strange.

850 here, a medium sized dairy farm.

secman

Looking at it from an accountant point of view, an hourly rate of €45 to €50 is far from excessive to cover overheads, accounting software, PI cover etc.
So 10 hours logged up would equate to a fee of 450 to 500 plus vat € 553.50 to €615.00

That's a day and a half work from start to finishing accounts, computing tax return online, meeting with client, signing off accounts, return and filing return online. That timeframe would be very much relying on books and records being kept well.
Just a viewpoint from other side of desk ...

degetme

1200 plus vat here. Average sized dairy farm

lakill Farm

45/50 and hour charge out? Most of the basic is is carried out by junior and then review by senior.

So 9hours x €30 and 1 x €60 is more realistic?
The old way of 1/3 staff , 1/3 overheads & 1/3 partner pull , make up of fees still exist it seems. I know from our point of view we ditched the partner share to keep fees reflecting the industries we serve and economic circumstances

secman wrote: »

Looking at it from an accountant point of view, an hourly rate of €45 to €50 is far from excessive to cover overheads, accounting software, PI cover etc.
So 10 hours logged up would equate to a fee of 450 to 500 plus vat € 553.50 to €615.00

That's a day and a half work from start to finishing accounts, computing tax return online, meeting with client, signing off accounts, return and filing return online. That timeframe would be very much relying on books and records being kept well.
Just a viewpoint from other side of desk ...

Dunedin

degetme wrote: »

1200 plus vat here. Average sized dairy farm

What’s an average sized dairy farm these days??????

valtra2

Dunedin wrote: »

What’s an average sized dairy farm these days??????

80 cows ?

older by the day

valtra2 wrote: »

80 cows ?

Scrap my earlir post , I'm only a small farmer 😊

anthony500_1

older by the day wrote:

Scrap my earlir post , I'm only a small farmer 😊

In reality we are mostly all only small farmers.

KAMG

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Just basic accounts here for small dairy farm no tax advice, it was supposed to be 500 when I changed over to him a few yeas ago and he ended up charging 700. He said if my profit goes up he'll be charging more which I find strange.

When I read this I just needed to know who gives you your tax advise if not your accountant?

KAMG

lakill Farm wrote: »

45/50 and hour charge out? Most of the basic is is carried out by junior and then review by senior.

So 9hours x €30 and 1 x €60 is more realistic?
The old way of 1/3 staff , 1/3 overheads & 1/3 partner pull , make up of fees still exist it seems. I know from our point of view we ditched the partner share to keep fees reflecting the industries we serve and economic circumstances

Do you work in an accountants so? Are you the junior or the partner if the answer to question 1 is yes. Ditching the partner share seems incredible to me. And I certainly ain't a partner in our place.

Bass Reeves

KAMG wrote: »

Do you work in an accountants so? Are you the junior or the partner if the answer to question 1 is yes. Ditching the partner share seems incredible to me. And I certainly ain't a partner in our place.

It is lakhill own business as far as I know. He specialises in farm accounts

KAMG

Bass Reeves wrote: »

It is lakhill own business as far as I know. He specialises in farm accounts

Very good. Fair play to him. I'm happy enough being told what to do here in the office and at home on the farm. Haha. But I don't understand why he doesn't value his own time enough to charge for it. I'm sure after all the exams and getting paid crap money while in the training period, I'd not be cutting out my percentage of the charge out rates if I was ever a partner in a practice.

freedominacup

Mrs freedom says a grand plus vat. should cover 100 cow dairy farms accounts. Plus or minus depending on how accounts are presented. Not much minus on that though. More plus for bags of dockets.

Dakota Dan

KAMG wrote: »

When I read this I just needed to know who gives you your tax advise if not your accountant?

Nobody apart from myself. The accountant is a joke he’ll look at my accounts for the first time at my yearly appointment with him. He’ll then be totally confused and have to call in his assistant that completed them to enlighten him. For instance this year he was trying to tell me that I didn’t deposit calf sales cheques in my bank account and that I must have put them in another account.

KAMG

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Nobody apart from myself. The accountant is a joke he’ll look at my accounts for the first time at my yearly appointment with him. He’ll then be totally confused and have to call in his assistant that completed them to enlighten him. For instance this year he was trying to tell me that I didn’t deposit calf sales cheques in my bank account and that I must have put them in another account.

So are you telling me you work out your tax liability each year based on the profit figure your accountant comes up with. That's extraordinary in my opinion. Who then files your tax return? Have you a ROS Cert at home. Something doesn't add up here.

The Nutty M

KAMG wrote: »

So are you telling me you work out your tax liability each year based on the profit figure your accountant comes up with. That's extraordinary in my opinion. Who then files your tax return? Have you a ROS Cert at home. Something doesn't add up here.

The working out the amount of liability/filing the tax return etc is the accountants job,not their advice. That's what they are payed for,to do a job.

Bass Reeves

Dakota Dan wrote: »

Nobody apart from myself. The accountant is a joke he’ll look at my accounts for the first time at my yearly appointment with him. He’ll then be totally confused and have to call in his assistant that completed them to enlighten him. For instance this year he was trying to tell me that I didn’t deposit calf sales cheques in my bank account and that I must have put them in another account.

There is an easy answer to that find another accountant. Collect any historical receipts from him and take your accounts for the last 3-4 years to the new accountant. You have 6 months to sort that no point in leaving it on the long finger

KAMG

The Nutty M wrote: »

The working out the amount of liability/filing the tax return etc is the accountants job,not their advice. That's what they are payed for,to do a job.

That's what I'm saying. In an earlier post he says the accountant does nothing apart from produce accounts. No advice re tax etc or how to reduce it. Seems really strange. As others have said I think its time to go to a proper accountant.

Dakota Dan

KAMG wrote: »

So are you telling me you work out your tax liability each year based on the profit figure your accountant comes up with. That's extraordinary in my opinion. Who then files your tax return? Have you a ROS Cert at home. Something doesn't add up here.

You asked me where I get tax advice obviously the accountant works out tax liability and does the returns but I think you already knew that.

KAMG

Dakota Dan wrote: »

You asked me where I get tax advice obviously the accountant works out tax liability and does the returns but I think you already knew that.

I did indeed. And you expect him to do all that and also give you tax advice for €500. Not gonna happen I'm afraid. Maybe if you were willing to fork out another couple of hundred to a proper accountants you could save yourself a couple of grand. I don't know. The phrase 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys springs to mind'

Dakota Dan

KAMG wrote: »

I did indeed. And you expect him to do all that and also give you tax advice for €500. Not gonna happen I'm afraid. Maybe if you were willing to fork out another couple of hundred to a proper accountants you could save yourself a couple of grand. I don't know. The phrase 'if you pay peanuts you get monkeys springs to mind'

So you were just acting the bollix, BTW if you read my post right I said €700 and to be exact €730. Where did I say that I was expecting him to give tax advice as well? You heed to stop acting the drama Queen.

KAMG

Dakota Dan wrote: »

So you were just acting the bollix, BTW if you read my post right I said €700 and to be exact €730. Where did I say that I was expecting him to give tax advice as well? You heed to stop acting the drama Queen.

You didn't say you expected it. You complained about not receiving any. If you would rather pay more tax than necessary then fair enough. We have a few client's with the same approach as you. If I was on the other side of the desk, I know I'd take every opportunity presented to me to keep the tax down. Legally of course.