Can socket wiring be extended?

metricspaces

If a socket needs to be moved and the wiring is not long enough to reach the new location is it acceptable to extend the wiring? Or what is the recommended way to deal with this problem?

Thomyokk

metricspaces wrote: »

If a socket needs to be moved and the wiring is not long enough to reach the new location is it acceptable to extend the wiring? Or what is the recommended way to deal with this problem?

The wiring can be extended

The joint needs to be accessible

You need to be careful if it's a ring circuit you don't just spur off

Also the fault loop impedance might need to be checked depending on how far you extend

metricspaces

Thomyokk wrote: »

The wiring can be extended

The joint needs to be accessible

You need to be careful if it's a ring circuit you don't just spur off

Also the fault loop impedance might need to be checked depending on how far you extend

Thanks. When you say the joint needs to be accessible. Does this mean you can't simply extend the wire, put socket in new position, and then plaster over the wall?

This is a new build house and I've quite a few sockets I need to move. They are only moving a few cms.

For upstairs if the wires are coming down from the attic the I guess the best thing would be to create the joint to extend in the attic. That way it'll be accessible.

But for rooms down stairs, I'm not sure how the joint could be made accessible?

The reason I'm moving the sockets downstairs is because they are in the way of areas I want to add decorative beading to a wall. So I don't want to leave say a blank plate where existing socket is as it leaves me with exact same problem I have now.

The reason I'm moving sockets upstairs is because they aren't either side of the bed. Similarly I don't want a blank plate where existing socket is as it'll look terrible.

What are my other options if I don't want to leave the joint accessible?

hufpc8w3adnk65

No you cannot just plaster over a joint. Sockets on the first floor would be fed up the wall not down.

metricspaces

MrMac84 wrote: »

No you cannot just plaster over a joint. Sockets on the first floor would be fed up the wall not down.

Thanks. So what would be the best way of solving my problem here? I want to move the sockets a few cms to the side, and i don't want a blank plate whets existing socket is.

I guess for the first floor the joint could be made under the floorboards? That way it's just a matter of lifting up carpet & floorboards if it needs to be accessed.

For downstairs the floor is concrete

Thomyokk

I think a joint under carpet and floorboard is allowed,there's a regulation on it.

The spot has to be marked with an X.

Maintenance -free joints if they're not going to be accessible,you may even have enough to play on wires to re-route slightly.

metricspaces

Thomyokk wrote: »

Maintenance -free joints if they're not going to be accessible,you may even have enough to play on wires to re-route slightly.

Thanks. What is a maintenance free joint?

If I understand you correctly. I can extend the wires with a maintenance free joint and plaster over it.

listermint

Isn't it acceptable to Crimp the terminations and place in an enclosure like a choc-box, secure the box in the wall chase and plaster over.
Remember if you do this it has to be within a safe zone, not where the old cable drop or switch box was.

Heat shrinking the joint also

metricspaces

https://www.hager.co.uk/product-catalogue/wiring-accessories/junction-boxes/maintenance-free-junction-box/38673.htm

I guess this is a maintenence free junction box.

Interesting discussions here on whether using these meets standards in UK (from 2012 though)

https://www.diynot.com/diy/threads/maintenance-free-vs-maintained-junction-boxes.314345/page-3

metricspaces

So if I have to extend the wires. Are these my options

1. Replace entire wire (would this be all way back to fuse board?)
2. Use maintenance free JB and plaster over wall
3. Make joint under floor with maintenance free JB
4. Make joint in another part of the wall that may be less sightly and cover it with a blanking plate

Thomyokk

Maintenance free joints aren't the norm for domestic work indoors

Tbh you'd be better with a Rec

DublinDilbert

You need to check how much slack is on the cables, if you only want to move them a few cm's as you suggest.

metricspaces

Thomyokk wrote: »

Maintenance free joints aren't the norm for domestic work indoors

Tbh you'd be better with a Rec

Yes. I will be getting a REC. Just would like to know for my own interest. What are my options?

Thomyokk

listermint wrote: »

Isn't it acceptable to Crimp the terminations and place in an enclosure like a choc-box, secure the box in the wall chase and plaster over.
Remember if you do this it has to be within a safe zone, not where the old cable drop or switch box was.

Heat shrinking the joint also

I think they do this in the UK alright

The presumption would be that this jointing is done by a REC

It would hardly be classed as maintenance-free when done by a handyman

listermint

Thomyokk wrote: »

Maintenance free joints aren't the norm for domestic work indoors

Tbh you'd be better with a Rec

Alot of things aren't the norm in this country tbh.

Builders still scoff at providing neutrals to sockets even with owners Willing to pay extra.

So being non normal doesn't mean it's against regs.

Crimping and heat wrapping a joint is a darn sight easier than pulling and repulling.

This is basic stuff...

metricspaces

So what options that satisfy regulations are there in my situation here where wires need to be extended to move a socket?

It's not a big one. There can only be a few options that fall within regulations. Just looking for clarification of what they are.

2011

listermint wrote: »

Builders still scoff at providing neutrals to sockets even with owners Willing to pay extra.

What do you mean? How would a socket work without a neutral? Do you mean use an earth as a return path?

listermint wrote: »

Crimping and heat wrapping a joint is a darn sight easier than pulling and repulling.

Yes, but would you be happy with it? I wouldn't.
One issue with this is that a crimp should not be applied to a solid core copper conductor (and most socket cabling in a domestic installation use solid core copper cables).

metricspaces wrote: »

So what options that satisfy regulations are there in my situation here where wires need to be extended to move a socket?

Leaving the argument about regulations aside, you have a newly built house that most likely has been wired properly. In my opinion the best way to deal with this would be to replace the cables that are too short, simple as that. Obviously this will cost more, but the additional cost is insignificant compared to the value of the house.

Simply put: If you value your new home don't gunter the electrics

Thomyokk

metricspaces wrote: »

So what options that satisfy regulations are there in my situation here where wires need to be extended to move a socket?

It's not a big one. There can only be a few options that fall within regulations. Just looking for clarification of what they are.

Accessible joints located under the floorboard

Mark the points with an X

That's if the cables don't move sufficiently without extending

Thomyokk

listermint wrote: »

Alot of things aren't the norm in this country tbh.

Builders still scoff at providing neutrals to sockets even with owners Willing to pay extra.

So being non normal doesn't mean it's against regs.

Crimping and heat wrapping a joint is a darn sight easier than pulling and repulling.

This is basic stuff...

I assume you mean light switches

It's been the norm for years

Bruthal

listermint wrote: »

Crimping and heat wrapping a joint is a darn sight easier than pulling and repulling.

But not near as good a job compared to avoiding crimping.

This is basic stuff...

Crimps most often used seem to be those colour coded ones. I wouldnt want those heat shrunk and inaccessible.

Ever try crimping onto solid core conductors? Not a great idea imo.

Not as basic as it might seem overall.

metricspaces

2011 wrote: »

Leaving the argument about regulations aside, you have a newly built house that most likely has been wired properly. In my opinion the best way to deal with this would be to replace the cables that are too short, simple as that. Obviously this will cost more, but the additional cost is insignificant compared to the value of the house.

Simply put: If you value your new home don't gunter the electrics

Thanks! My thinking exactly. I value my house and happy to pay for the safest/most correct solution.

My house is a timber frame house. If a new wire needs to come to bedroom sockets then how big a deal is this?

Is it simply a case of tying new wire to old wire at the fuse box end and pulling it through up to the bedroom socket?

Thomyokk

You said quite a few sockets

Realistically you're going to be jointing where possible not rewiring all your socket circuits

listermint

Thomyokk wrote: »

I assume you mean light switches

It's been the norm for years

I mean light switches

And it's not the norm. I could open any light switches right now of houses built in the last ten years and I'd say youd struggle to find 3 out of ten with neutrals ran.

If crimping is good enough for the ESB on the feed into your house then I don't see why it's not good enough for a socket move.

listermint

metricspaces wrote: »

Thanks! My thinking exactly. I value my house and happy to pay for the safest/most correct solution.

My house is a timber frame house. If a new wire needs to come to bedroom sockets then how big a deal is this?

Is it simply a case of tying new wire to old wire at the fuse box end and pulling it through up to the bedroom socket?

Let the REC deal with that.

And there is no most correct solution. There is what regulations permit.

You also come up against what the rec wants to do and that's down to their personal choice.

Bruthal

listermint wrote: »

.
If crimping is good enough for the ESB on the feed into your house then I don't see why it's not good enough for a socket move.

A crimp failure underground might be prefferable to one hidden in a house. Also they are solid larger size ones, much more suitable on larger aluminium cables than small crimps are on domestic wiring.

listermint

Bruthal wrote: »

A crimp failure underground might be prefferable to one hidden in a house.

Fair point.

metricspaces

listermint wrote: »

And there is no most correct solution. There is what regulations permit.

Yes I appreciate that. But there are correct solutions. I am trying to understand what they are. Which I think is fair enough?

So is it fair to say there are two correct solutions if the wires aren't long enough (1) take a brand new wires that are long enough (2) extend original wires and leave the point of extension accessible?

Leaving the point of extension accessible. This can be under the floor or in the wall. If it is in the wall, in practical terms does this mean leaving a cover plate at the point?

metricspaces

listermint wrote: »

There is what regulations permit.

Or to put it more simply. What does the regulations permit when you want to move a socket a few cms (80cm max) but the wiring is not long enough?

It can't be that indepth and complicated. There's only a few options.

Thomyokk

metricspaces wrote: »

Yes I appreciate that. But there are correct solutions. I am trying to understand what they are. Which I think is fair enough?

So is it fair to say there are two correct solutions if the wires aren't long enough (1) take a brand new wires that are long enough (2) extend original wires and leave the point of extension accessible?

Leaving the point of extension accessible. This can be under the floor or in the wall. If it is in the wall, in practical terms does this mean leaving a cover plate at the point?

Correct

The type of joint listermint discusses is not allowed here, reg. 526 covers it.

Also I highly doubt Esbn are crimping and sleeving solid conductors

Thomyokk

listermint wrote: »

I mean light switches

And it's not the norm. I could open any light switches right now of houses built in the last ten years and I'd say youd struggle to find 3 out of ten with neutrals ran.

If crimping is good enough for the ESB on the feed into your house then I don't see why it's not good enough for a socket move.

I'd like to hear more than your say-so on that

I was doing it 10 years back and so was everyone else.

You're prob not aware but neutrals at switches were originally for the convenience of the contractor in wiring downlights and luminaires .Contractors didn't start doing it for the benefit of the customer.

2011

Thomyokk wrote: »

I highly doubt Esbn are crimping and sleeving solid conductors

ESBN do crimp solid conductors. This is common practice with aluminum conductors.

listermint

Thomyokk wrote: »

I'd like to hear more than your say-so on that

I was doing it 10 years back and so was everyone else.

You're prob not aware but neutrals at switches were originally for the convenience of the contractor in wiring downlights and luminaires .Contractors didn't start doing it for the benefit of the customer.

My Say?

You arent even aware the ESB crimp lines. Have you ever seen the mains feed into a site ?

Neutrals are non normal. just because you were doing it doesnt mean anyone else is. Its just not a normal practice in ireland. I dare ya to say how many times you see a neutral line in a domestic install retro. (including recent builds)

meercat

Have to say I come across neutrals at light switches fairly frequently. Mostly houses built in last 15yrs or so.

hufpc8w3adnk65

meercat wrote: »

Have to say I come across neutrals at light switches fairly frequently. Mostly houses built in last 15yrs or so.

New Hager light switches actually come with a neutral terminal on switch’s

Thomyokk

2011 wrote: »

ESBN do crimp solid conductors. This is common practice with aluminum conductors.

Thanks I wasn't aware, I was thinking more of the service cables which would be stranded and flexible cores