Oldest Laws/Principles etc

GM228

We have previously discussed the oldest statute and common law powers (Fairs Act 1204 and Garda Power of Discretion from circa 925 respectively) still in force in Ireland.

However I'm curious what the oldest common law offences (of the 35) and torts may be?

Off the top of my head murder, rape, conspiracy and manslaughter are old common law offences still in use today (some obviously more commonly used than others), I would guess treason and murder are potentially the oldest, but what else is there - even obscure ones that we don't use, but potentially could.

As regulars know criminal law and it's history is my passion, but for completeness we may as well discuss civil wrongs too, would I be correct in saying nuisance the oldest civil wrong applicable today?

Further to that, how about the oldest legal maxims - perhaps perspicua vera non sunt probanda in criminal/civil law and pacta sunt servanda in civil law?

Victor

Presumably theft, battery and eh, blasphemy? There is a fullish list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law_offence

Off topic: It seems that for a time in ancient Rome, battery was a fine-only offence, meaning one rich guy went around punching people for fun, only having to pay a fine.

GM228

Victor wrote: »

Presumably theft, battery and eh, blasphemy? There is a fullish list here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law_offence

Many have been abolished, including the three you mentioned.

There are currently 35 common law offences still in force in Ireland, many however are not used and some have never actually been used since the formation of the state.

Carawaystick

Copyright predates common law, King Diarmaid Mac Cerbhal with his "Every cow her calf" judgement around 560

4ensic15

There is still a crime of inducing a breach of contract. hasn't been charged in a while but still in extant.

GM228

4ensic15 wrote: »

There is still a crime of inducing a breach of contract. hasn't been charged in a while but still in extant.

Inducing a breach of contract is a tort, not a crime.

Charles Stewart Parnell was tried (unsuccessfully) for conspiracy to induce a breach of contract. This is not the same as saying inducing a breach of contract is a crime because it is not, it's only an element of a crime. The charge was for conspiracy.

GM228

Carawaystick wrote: »

Copyright predates common law, King Diarmaid Mac Cerbhal with his "Every cow her calf" judgement around 560

Wasn't that more of an arbitrary ruling (which resulted in 3000+ deaths at the Battle of Cúl Dreimhne) rather than any sort of binding precedent type of ruling.

I think Copyright in law originated in statute as opposed to case law - the Statute of Anne 1710 I believe.

GM228

GM228 wrote: »

We have previously discussed the oldest statute and common law powers (Fairs Act 1204 and Garda Power of Discretion from circa 925 respectively) still in force in Ireland.

However I'm curious what the oldest common law offences and torts may be?

Off the top of my head murder, rape, treason, conspiracy and manslaughter are old common law offences still in use today (some obviously more commonly used than others), I would guess treason and murder are potentially the oldest, but what else is there - even obscure ones that we don't use, but potentially could.

As regulars know criminal law and it's history is my passion, but for completeness we may as well discuss civil wrongs too, would I be correct in saying nuisance the oldest civil wrong applicable today?

Further to that, how about the oldest legal maxims - perhaps perspicua vera non sunt probanda in criminal/civil law and pacta sunt servanda in civil law?

Very interesting question. I went through a phase of being interested in the origins of land law (who was the first person to decide he or she could "own" land, and the gradual incursion of land ownership against the commonage system). I presume nomadic tribes have their own internal "laws" that reflect tribal custom, wonder about remote "stone age" tribes of the Amazon etc. At what point in cultural development do laws start to form? The earliest maxims presumably relate to murder and possibly livestock theft etc.

Carawaystick

your thread title is oldest laws/principles
The principle of Copyright in Ireland is the oldest I can think of, which isn't a variation of dont kill, steal, hurt or or have sex with

I just gave you a case where it arose, more than a millenium before some english statute.

4ensic15

GM228 wrote: »

Inducing a breach of contract is a tort, not a crime.

Charles Stewart Parnell was tried (unsuccessfully) for conspiracy to induce a breach of contract. This is not the same as saying inducing a breach of contract is a crime because it is not, it's only an element of a crime. The charge was for conspiracy.

A charge of conspiracy is not a stand-alone charge, it must be conspiracy to commit a crime.

Kevin3

GM228 wrote: »

There are currently 35 common law offences still in force in Ireland, many however are not used and some have never actually been used since the formation of the state.

Do you have the list?

GM228

4ensic15 wrote: »

A charge of conspiracy is not a stand-alone charge

Yes I know that, the point I was making is Parnell was not charged with inducing a breach of contract, rather he was charged with conspiracy to induce a breach of contract (which I did state).

Inducing a breach of contract is not and never has been a crime, it's a tort.

4ensic15 wrote: »

it must be conspiracy to commit a crime.

Actually no it's not (we have discussed this before).

At common law conspiracy isn't restricted to a particular offence, there are 6 common law conspiracy related offences including the catch all "conspiracy to carry out an unlawful act", it can involve civil wrongs and make those non-criminal unlawful wrongs into a crime.

Conspiracy is an agreement to carry out an unlawful act, or to do a lawful act by unlawful means, not an agreement to carry out a criminal act.

GM228

Kevin3 wrote: »

Do you have the list?

Attempt to commit any crime
Attempt to pervert the course of justice
Barratry
Breach of the Peace
Bribery of public officials
Buggery
Challenging to a duel
Champerty
Conspiracy to carry out an unlawful act
Conspiracy to corrupt public morals
Conspiracy to defraud
Conspiracy to effect public mischief
Conspiracy to outrage public decency
Conspiracy to rob
Corpse disturbance, exhumation, sale, non buriel
Embracery
Escape
Incitement
Indecent assault on female (aka sexual assault)
Indecent exposure
Interfering with witnesses
Jury personating
Maintenance
Manslaughter
Murder
Obscene or indecent performance
Perjury in judicial proceedings
Subordination of perjury
Piracy jure gentium
Pound breach
Public Mischief
Public nuisance
Rape
Scandalising the court
Sedition
Treason

Victor

GM228 wrote: »

Conspiracy to rob corpses

That sounds like planning to do an armed hold-up against a dead person.

GM228

Victor wrote: »

That sounds like planning to do an armed hold-up against a dead person.

Sorry Victor, typo - it's a catch all corpse related crimes offence, exhumation, selling body parts etc. Primarily for grave robbers. I know of only one instance where someone was charged here under this.