ESB - Electricity generation in Ireland post 2025?

Muckit

With Bord na Mona fast tracking their wind down plan to ceasing peat production by 2025, what are the repercussions for all of us electricity users post 2025?!

Biomass (micanthus and willow) appears to not be viable. There are mass objections to wind and solar farms.

How is our electricity to be generated into the future?

Keep Sluicing

Muckit wrote: »

With Bord na Mona fast tracking their wind down plan to ceasing peat production by 2025, what are the repercussions for all of us electricity users post 2025?!

Biomass (micanthus and willow) appears to not be viable. There are mass objections to wind and solar farms.

How is our electricity to be generated into the future?

Imported Oil and Gas. I was at the Energy Now show in Kilkenny and I've been looking at renewable energy for years, it seems that the irish government is happy to import our energy requirements and pay for carbon credit.

Wheety

Did you have a read of this? Doesn't answer your question but is related.

https://www.theguardian.com/environment/climate-consensus-97-per-cent/2018/oct/25/blood-coal-irelands-dirty-secret

Timmaay

Muckit wrote: »

With Bord na Mona fast tracking their wind down plan to ceasing peat production by 2025, what are the repercussions for all of us electricity users post 2025?!

Biomass (micanthus and willow) appears to not be viable. There are mass objections to wind and solar farms.

How is our electricity to be generated into the future?

Here's what it currently is, Gas makes up a much bigger share than I realized, future projects are still up in the air, my guess will a mix of more wind, gas to stay about the same (despite efforts to reduce it), coal to reduce and more imported electricity from interconnectors with the UK/France.

EdgeCase

Doesn’t appear to be much vision coming from government on any of this.
We look like we just paid lip service to the climate agreements, said all the right things and then did nothing.

What we are doing isn’t sustainable. We all know that, yet we are doing nothing.

yosemitesam1

Anyone for nuclear? It's looking like a better option than many of the "green" options

Timmaay

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Anyone for nuclear? It's looking like a better option than many of the "green" options

The easy way to get nuclear here is with the European interconnecters, simply import it from there!

Mooooo

Problem with everything green or otherwise is nimby. Nuclear is prob the way to go. We prob are a safer bet in terms of location for nuclear than most countries that have it in terms of stability and storms earthquakes etc

MrMusician18

Muckit wrote: »

With Bord na Mona fast tracking their wind down plan to ceasing peat production by 2025, what are the repercussions for all of us electricity users post 2025?!

Biomass (micanthus and willow) appears to not be viable. There are mass objections to wind and solar farms.

How is our electricity to be generated into the future?

Offshore wind

yosemitesam1

Timmaay wrote: »

The easy way to get nuclear here is with the European interconnecters, simply import it from there!

That's probably their plan! Those salt reactors look like a good way to go unless they crack fusion

patsy_mccabe

I know of someone that put a very large wind turbine in his back garden a few years back. It just sits there now, not turning. It became too expensive to fix. His plan was to sell back to the grid. Completely unviable and it was from one of the well known companies.

EdgeCase

I can't see nuclear being politically acceptable here. ESB looked at it during the 1970s and it was pushed off the agenda pretty much permanently by the scale of public protest against it.

Realistically, we are looking at probably a lot of offshore wind, which would make a lot of sense in Ireland and I don't really understand why we aren't already world-leaders in this area. We've a massive wind resource.

From a climate change point of view, energy's not actually our only big emitter of CO2. We need to move agriculture up the value chain and away from bulk production of cheap beef and milk. I don't really understand the point of producing huge amounts of low value added milk and beef that ends up going to into global markets almost as commodity items e.g. live exports to very cheap markets in the Middle East or production of unbranded powdered milk that goes into food ingredients.

Ireland's agricultural sector really needs to get itself properly branded up and push towards Irish food exports being a premium sustainable, green alternative. That means we can actually produce less and earn more from it and also make our rural environment a lot nicer as a result too.

As it stands, we're more or less subsidising the production of cheap meat and milk, and the net benefit to Ireland is simply not there.

Origin Green and similar initiatives are absolutely essential to getting Ireland where it should be on agriculture and when you think about it, there shouldn't really be a conflict between farmers and environmentalists on this. If we produce smarter and greener, it potentially means higher incomes for farmers and less intensive farming, as their product becomes more valuable.

I just see no joined up thinking on energy or agriculture here. It's all short-term, don't rock the boat stuff.

Mooooo

EdgeCase wrote: »

I can't see nuclear being politically acceptable here. ESB looked at it during the 1970s and it was pushed off the agenda pretty much permanently by the scale of public protest against it.

Realistically, we are looking at probably a lot of offshore wind, which would make a lot of sense in Ireland and I don't really understand why we aren't already world-leaders in this area. We've a massive wind resource.

From a climate change point of view, energy's not actually our only big emitter of CO2. We need to move agriculture up the value chain and away from bulk production of cheap beef and milk. I don't really understand the point of producing huge amounts of low value added milk and beef that ends up going to into global markets almost as commodity items e.g. live exports to very cheap markets in the Middle East or production of unbranded powdered milk that goes into food ingredients.

Ireland's agricultural sector really needs to get itself properly branded up and push towards Irish food exports being a premium sustainable, green alternative. That means we can actually produce less and earn more from it and also make our rural environment a lot nicer as a result too.

As it stands, we're more or less subsidising the production of cheap meat and milk, and the net benefit to Ireland is simply not there.

Origin Green and similar initiatives are absolutely essential to getting Ireland where it should be on agriculture and when you think about it, there shouldn't really be a conflict between farmers and environmentalists on this. If we produce smarter and greener, it potentially means higher incomes for farmers and less intensive farming, as their product becomes more valuable.

I just see no joined up thinking on energy or agriculture here. It's all short-term, don't rock the boat stuff.

The problem being that so far those initiatives are only resulting in higher incomes for processors not farmers

Timmaay

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I know of someone that put a very large wind turbine in his back garden a few years back. It just sits there now, not turning. It became too expensive to fix. His plan was to sell back to the grid. Completely unviable and it was from one of the well known companies.

No feed in tariff here in Ireland, so the esb basically refuse to pay you for any excess electricity the turbine in your back garden produces. I remember a polish company trying to flog some to our discussion group afew years ago, something like 5k for the basic turbine, which you could erect yourself, but 11k in total for them to erect, all of their breakeven sums were based on the 5k cost tho, and the turbines looked flimsy enough, no real track history of the company and God knows would there be any after sales support. Despite me being an engineer and very open to ideas as such, that experience told me not to bother with anything as such.

EdgeCase

Mooooo wrote: »

The problem being that so far those initiatives are only resulting in higher incomes for processors not farmers

Something that needs to be tackled by policy makers and farmers' groups because you will not solve the issue by just going on maxing out bulk production at huge environmental costs.

EdgeCase

Timmaay wrote: »

No feed in tariff here in Ireland, so the esb basically refuse to pay you for any excess electricity the turbine in your back garden produces. I remember a polish company trying to flog some to our discussion group afew years ago, something like 5k for the basic turbine, which you could erect yourself, but 11k in total for them to erect, all of their breakeven sums were based on the 5k cost tho, and the turbines looked flimsy enough, no real track history of the company and God knows would there be any after sales support. Despite me being an engineer and very open to ideas as such, that experience told me not to bother with anything as such.

A feed tariff needs to be imposed on the industry if it's to willing to open one up. It's utterly ridiculous that you can't sell power back into the grid at this stage. The ESB and Eirgrid have had years to get this stuff ready and they clearly just don't want to.

yosemitesam1

EdgeCase wrote: »

I can't see nuclear being politically acceptable here. ESB looked at it during the 1970s and it was pushed off the agenda pretty much permanently by the scale of public protest against it.

Realistically, we are looking at probably a lot of offshore wind, which would make a lot of sense in Ireland and I don't really understand why we aren't already world-leaders in this area. We've a massive wind resource.

From a climate change point of view, energy's not actually our only big emitter of CO2. We need to move agriculture up the value chain and away from bulk production of cheap beef and milk. I don't really understand the point of producing huge amounts of low value added milk and beef that ends up going to into global markets almost as commodity items e.g. live exports to very cheap markets in the Middle East or production of unbranded powdered milk that goes into food ingredients.

Ireland's agricultural sector really needs to get itself properly branded up and push towards Irish food exports being a premium sustainable, green alternative. That means we can actually produce less and earn more from it and also make our rural environment a lot nicer as a result too.

As it stands, we're more or less subsidising the production of cheap meat and milk, and the net benefit to Ireland is simply not there.

Origin Green and similar initiatives are absolutely essential to getting Ireland where it should be on agriculture and when you think about it, there shouldn't really be a conflict between farmers and environmentalists on this. If we produce smarter and greener, it potentially means higher incomes for farmers and less intensive farming, as their product becomes more valuable.

I just see no joined up thinking on energy or agriculture here. It's all short-term, don't rock the boat stuff.

Fairly sure wind is near its maximum. It's far too variable to make up a large amount of the supply

patsy_mccabe

Why is ther opposition to solar farms? Don't get it.

manjou

modify slated sheds to capture methane from the cows and use it to generate electrcity and zero graze grass into them. then pump dung into biodigester and take methanw from it. kill 2 birds 1 stone 0 emissons & electricity.

_Brian

Timmaay wrote: »

Here's what it currently is, Gas makes up a much bigger share than I realized, future projects are still up in the air, my guess will a mix of more wind, gas to stay about the same (despite efforts to reduce it), coal to reduce and more imported electricity from interconnectors with the UK/France.

We import power from neuclear powered nations while tutting at how dangerous neculear power is - fairly Irish approach.


Presumably peat for bedding has a short life on the market too.

Timmaay

manjou wrote: »

modify slated sheds to capture methane from the cows and use it to generate electrcity and zero graze grass into them. then pump dung into biodigester and take methanw from it. kill 2 birds 1 stone 0 emissons & electricity.

Hmmm let's horribly complicate our lovely simple grazed grass system here in Ireland and instead house them 365days/yr while burning diesel to zero graze in and draw slurry out just so as we can capture the very small percentage of methane that the cow passes out in her dung (most she breaths out). More like let's throw 10 stones and kill no birds ha.

Buford T. Justice XIX

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Why is ther opposition to solar farms? Don't get it.

They're totally in favour of solar and wind turbines.


Just not somewhere they will have to be looking at it.

SuperTortoise

Realistically, off shore wind and solar farms, it would have to be on a massive scale though.

Nuclear makes the most sense, to safeguard our future power requirements, but the downside is a massive initial outlay of money and legacy attitudes to nuclear energy.

davidk1394

Why don’t they incentivize companies and farmers to put solar panels on the roofs of their sheds ?

Nekarsulm

The UK predicts they will have to build 5 new nuclear power stations if a majority of the people adopt electric vehicles.
We need one to secure our independance and security of supply.

Nekarsulm

davidk1394 wrote: »

Why don’t they incentivize companies and farmers to put solar panels on the roofs of their sheds ?

Because the ESB has a monopoly on supply, and really dont want you or me generating power.
This is evident in their pricing structure for paying people for power produced, and the imposition of a quota on supply.
If you had a windy January to May, they would take the remaining 7 months supplied and pay nothing.

Buford T. Justice XIX

davidk1394 wrote: »

Why don’t they incentivize companies and farmers to put solar panels on the roofs of their sheds ?

Some of it would be hardware issues. Until the rollout of smart meters for electricity into the users box which can supply information on power supplies going the opposite direction as well, there is very little scope for storage and using the excess without the whole system collapsing, afaik.

Birdnuts

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Anyone for nuclear? It's looking like a better option than many of the "green" options

I'd be a big fan of nuclear - serious investment going on atm in Nuclear Fusion reators in the south of France that promise unlimited and waste free energy. Same with Thorium reactors in India and China. The likes of wind,solar, biofuels, hydro etc. all come with very high economic and environmental costs despite the "greenwashed" image pedalled by their respective interests.

Birdnuts

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I know of someone that put a very large wind turbine in his back garden a few years back. It just sits there now, not turning. It became too expensive to fix. His plan was to sell back to the grid. Completely unviable and it was from one of the well known companies.

Its been a really bad year for wind power between the cold spring and hot summer under HP conditions - it just doesn't meet the needs of a modern economy.

EdgeCase

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Fairly sure wind is near its maximum. It's far too variable to make up a large amount of the supply

It's no where near maximum. Read some of the reports on it sometime.

Birdnuts

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

Why is ther opposition to solar farms? Don't get it.

I don't think grid scale solar is economic at our latittude and energy demand profile - better suited to hotter climes that have a big air-con need. Since subs where withdrawn in the UK and Spain it has suffered a big decline in installations

manjou

exactly the point i was rying to imply. alot of renewable energy sources use alot of resourses to generate electricity usually diesel in biomass and biodigester to get stuff harvested and drew to them. wind and solar are variable and expensive at moment but may change as tech improves. in end energy not cheap so would be better of if could get ways of using more efficiently

Markcheese

Nekarsulm wrote: »

The UK predicts they will have to build 5 new nuclear power stations if a majority of the people adopt electric vehicles.
We need one to secure our independance and security of supply.

The nuclear power station that EDF is contracted to build at hinckley point c, is estimated to cost 20 billion to build, (2 reactors), the electricity it produces will cost approx 92.50 pounds per megawatt hour, (basically 50 to 60 billion extra on electricity bills over 35 years).
If it works...

stampydmonkey

Here's some actuals from this summer from GNI. Gas fired power generation was huge during the summer as there was no wind..a hell of a lot more then ESBs shiny new marketing campaign would have you believe.


https://www.gasnetworks.ie/corporate/news/active-news-articles/natural-gas-generation-hits-all-time-high/

https://www.gasnetworks.ie/corporate/company/our-commitment/environment/renewable-gas/

Biogas may be a way of farmers to make some money, capturing and selling renewable gas to GNI for injection into the national gas grid.

Markcheese

I'll try and find some of the south Australian blurb on the tesla battery that they built,
Basically they reckon it's the best thing since bread came sliced, makes their grid much more stable, allows them to include much more wind power on the grid... And most importantly replaces spinning reserve and expensive gas and diesel peaking plants... Saves them a fortune...
G.E. Is currently pushing their fast start up gas generators in conjunction with grid scale batteries, (basically a generator that can go from switching on to full power in 20, /30 mins and a whacking great battery that can instantly give the same power as the generator until it comes up to speed,
Edit.. Found something.
https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2018/sep/27/south-australias-tesla-battery-on-track-to-make-back-a-third-of-cost-in-a-year

Markcheese

https://www.ge.com/power/services/gas-turbines/upgrades/hybrid-egt

That's not the article I was looking for but it'll do,
And if you'd ever seen the brown crap, spewing out of the chimneys from the esb open cycle generators in aghada..,!!!

alps

Tidal should surely be the one most pursued. Is there anything else on earth as consistent as the tides.

What energy would you require to fill a reservoir the size of Cork harbour 4 times a day?

Now can you imagine how much consistent power could be harnessed if that energy was trapped.

There have to be areas of massive flow around our shores like Carnsore Point..

https://horizon-magazine.eu/article/tide-turning-underwater-turbines.html

Markcheese

Stick a huge dam ( with locks) across from Roches point, lash in a share of turbines, and. Huge energy storage system (for slack tides) and the jobs done, how complicated could it be,? probably Only cost Many many billion...
Of course there'd be a huge local environmental impact too..
Believe it or not I'm actually in favour of something like this.. But it's far from simple, cheap and risk free... Nó Ones Ever done a similar scale system and made it work...

Panch18

It’s amazing that hydrogen, the most abundant fuel in the universe, isn’t being perused further. Particularly for the transport side of things

Wave for electricity and hydrogen for cars, tractors, buses etc

Markcheese

Panch18 wrote: »

It’s amazing that hydrogen, the most abundant fuel in the universe, isn’t being perused further. Particularly for the transport side of things

Wave for electricity and hydrogen for cars, tractors, buses etc

Yeah, there's been a lot of money spent on it, but it's not cheap to aquire/create, it's not cheap to store, transfer or transport either... Not impossible either.. Which is why we tend to use simple, cheap (for now) hydro-carbons..

patsy_mccabe

Panch18 wrote: »

It’s amazing that hydrogen, the most abundant fuel in the universe, isn’t being perused further. Particularly for the transport side of things

Wave for electricity and hydrogen for cars, tractors, buses etc

I worked with Hydrogen gas before. Because it has such a low molecular weight, it leaks very easy. It's also highly explosive in air. You don't want to crash a car with a tank full of hydrogen. No less explosive than gasoline, but still.

Melodeon

It burns with a "Pop!"*, if I recall my chemistry classes from the dim mists of time.

*Intensity and blast radius of "Pop!" varies in proportion to quantity of Hydrogen involved.

amacca

A quiet or squeaky pop depending on the source of information.

Thats if you burn it in a test tube.

Isn't the storage or energy density of hydrogen storage thats the limiting factor at the moment.

Water John

One or two myths here. ESB doesn't have a monopoly on electricity production. what turf was giving to the grid is peanuts.
The Tesla storage in Australia, was 100Mw built in less than 100 days. Elon Musk said he would pay for it if he missed the promise. It is used to balance the grid as there was a danger of blackout.
A standard nuclear plant is too large, expensive and too long to build. Thorium combined with renewables would be my best bet.
Next connector will be to France, probably from Cork. That gives you access to nuclear.
If we move to a carbon neutral country we will need to multiply the present generation by 3 or 4. So there is room for lots of diff sources.
Our wind resource is very good and our solar is equivalent to Germany. Solar tech is the focus of a lot of research to improve yield. At present 5 acres produces 1Mw at peak.
Hope the new Minister is better than the last.

Markcheese

What are Bord na móna Are replacing peat with In their Midlands power stations.? It's going to have to suit their burners anyway..Miscantus didn't..
Willow probably would but as to Wether or not it's financially viable to grow.. Hemp is another one I've heard suggested, I haven't got a clue about the economics of it though... Can't see BnM offering much per ton though..

Melodeon

Markcheese wrote: »

What are Bord na móna Are replacing peat with In their Midlands power stations.? It's going to have to suit their burners anyway..Miscantus didn't..
Willow probably would but as to Wether or not it's financially viable to grow.. Hemp is another one I've heard suggested, I haven't got a clue about the economics of it though... Can't see BnM offering much per ton though..

Wood chip in vast quantities.
Between brash and tops, whole trees, and pulp logs, they're the biggest consumer of wood chip in the country that I know of.

yosemitesam1

Melodeon wrote: »

Wood chip in vast quantities.
Between brash and tops, whole trees, and pulp logs, they're the biggest consumer of wood chip in the country that I know of.

Would put medite and smartply under pressure, they take huge amounts