Repayment of College Fees after leaving job

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Hi there,

A friend of mine recently had a lot of issues with their job (unprofessional management) and another other serious issue with a member staff.

She has since left the job and moved into a new company. The old company paid her college fees for the last 3 years but she did not sign any contract to say that she would have to pay these back and it was not part of her initial contract. The employer sent a blank unsigned contract back to her saying here are the terms to pay back but this was not the copy she had ever signed.

Her boss keeps chasing her via email and she wants to put an end to it. Could a solicitors letter help here?

Thanks, any advice appreciated.

Xterminator

Hi Op

Morally your friend should pay, because she took advantage of the scheme. She is now enjoying the fruits of that investment in her education but the business who paid for it is not. I don't believe any later problems with her employer relieve her of that moral obligation.

however if she never signed anything she can legally claim she was ignorant of the clawback clause. It does not sound like that was the case from what you have said. If she was informed by email etc of the clawback clause she may still be liable, but the employer would probably have to provide evidence.

it sounds like she needs to call her ex boss and speak to them person to person, and explain why she thinks she shouldn't have to pay. I wouldn't even consider going the legal route until she has spoken in person.

what is her justification for not paying?

3DataModem

Pheonix10 wrote: »

The employer sent a blank unsigned contract back to her saying here are the terms to pay back but this was not the copy she had ever signed. Her boss keeps chasing her via email and she wants to put an end to it. Could a solicitors letter help here?

I've been in this situation. They made me sign the contract for the 3rd year but I had just expensed the cost of 1st and 2nd year so was not expecting to have to reimburse. I wasn't looking for a loophole, there literally was no agreement other than "we'll pay your fees".

Just tell them;

"Dear X

When my fees were paid, there was no agreement that I would reimburse if I left.

Before emailing me on this again, please note subsection (d) of the following statute; http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1997/act/26/section/11/enacted/en/html#zza26y1997s11.

I draw this to your attention, as you have presented me with a document proporting to be a binding contract between us, but that I have never seen before or agreed to.

I will be forwarding any future correspondance to my solicitor for response.

Regards,

Y"

Pelvis

Xterminator wrote: »

what is her justification for not paying?

Because she never agreed to, and the company never asked her to.

If the company can't be arsed to get their ducks in a row then they have no cause for complaint.

Morally, the employer shouldn't be harassing a former employee for money they do not owe.

uptherebels

Xterminator wrote: »

Hi Op

Morally your friend should pay, because she took advantage of the scheme. She is now enjoying the fruits of that investment in her education but the business who paid for it is not. I don't believe any later problems with her employer relieve her of that moral obligation.

however if she never signed anything she can legally claim she was ignorant of the clawback clause. It does not sound like that was the case from what you have said. If she was informed by email etc of the clawback clause she may still be liable, but the employer would probably have to provide evidence.

it sounds like she needs to call her ex boss and speak to them person to person, and explain why she thinks she shouldn't have to pay. I wouldn't even consider going the legal route until she has spoken in person.

what is her justification for not paying?

What moral obligation? There either was an agreement to pay back fees (legal or verbal)or there wasn't. If the company didn't put one in place it's on them that the staff member can leave with no repayment.

Stanford

Contract Law is based on 3 principles Offer, Acceptance and Consideration

The Employer offered to pay the fees, The Employee agreed and took the fees (Consideration), a valid contract exists and so your friend is bound to repay the fees, a contract does not have to be in writing, the Court will look at the Intent of the Parties

Pelvis

Stanford wrote: »

Contract Law is based on 3 principles Offer, Acceptance and Consideration

The Employer offered to pay the fees, The Employee agreed and took the fees (Consideration), a valid contract exists and so your friend is bound to repay the fees, a contract does not have to be in writing, the Court will look at the Intent of the Parties

Where in your contract is repayment mentioned?

listermint

Stanford wrote: »

Contract Law is based on 3 principles Offer, Acceptance and Consideration

The Employer offered to pay the fees, The Employee agreed and took the fees (Consideration), a valid contract exists and so your friend is bound to repay the fees, a contract does not have to be in writing, the Court will look at the Intent of the Parties

What are you even on about,

The company would need to have an explicit policy document in writing that both parties agreed to and it was signed or their is documentary evidence of awknowledgement of an agreement.

The company cannot claim ignorance of contract law, nor should you be advocating it.


Sounds like amateur hour tbh.

_Brian

If she never agreed to repayment and tue company can’t produce a signed document to support their claim then she should just ignore them, keep deleting the emails or better still block them so they bounce back.

Some suggested a “moral” aspect. Balderdash !!, if there was no signed agreement to repay them it was part of the perks of tue job to have further education covered.

They are being petty and unprofessional!

Misguided1

The fact that the company hasn't produced a signed copy of the agreement suggests that they know they are on shaky ground.
Normally a binding agreement would exist between the 2 parties and usually the amount due for repayment is deducted from the final salary.

Sounds like the company has screwed up on both counts here. I would politely respond saying that you were not party to such an agreement and had you been aware, you would happily have remained in their employment until the repayment term had expired.

Cushie Butterfield

Surely the OP’s friend had to apply for the fees to be paid at some stage?

Was it a standard application form? Was there anything in that referring to reimbursement in the event of leaving? If so, that’s what her employer needs to produce.

If not, how did they apply?

Pelvis

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

Surely the OP’s friend had to apply for the fees to be paid at some stage?

Was it a standard application form? Was there anything in that referring to reimbursement in the event of leaving? If so, that’s what her employer needs to produce.

If not, how did they apply?

You assume some sort of formal process existed. For all we know they walked up to their boss and asked them if they would contribute to fees, boss says yeah no bother just submit an expense form.

Cushie Butterfield

Pelvis wrote: »

You assume some sort of formal process existed. For all we know they walked up to their boss and asked them if they would contribute to fees, boss says yeah no bother just submit an expense form.

No, I don’t assume anything - that’s why I asked if it wasn’t on a standard application form how did they apply!

Anyway, I agree it sounds as if this is a much looser sort of arrangement.

Clarification from the OP would clear that up.

OMM 0000

I think there are a couple of things to think about here.

1. Does she need this ex-employer for anything? For example, is a reference from them important. Or is this a small industry where everyone talks to each other. Usually it's a bad idea to burn bridges.

2. If no contract was signed, it's the employer's word against your friend's word. But maybe they really did have an oral agreement that if she leaves before X years, she needs to pay back the money? If there was no agreement, and this demand for money is truly unexpected and not part of the deal, then I think your friend can stand her ground.

3. It's pretty well known that when employers pay for your degree, they expect you to stay a certain number of years, or else you need to repay the money. I even went through this myself - they paid for my masters and I agreed to stay an extra 3 years or something like that. I don't recall signing anything. But I would have paid them back if I left early, as it's the right thing to do.

Maybe a compromise can be reached.

0gac3yjefb5sv7

Cushie Butterfield wrote: »

No, I don’t assume anything - that’s why I asked if it wasn’t on a standard application form how did they apply!

Anyway, I agree it sounds as if this is a much looser sort of arrangement.

Clarification from the OP would clear that up.

It was a lose agreement with no form. The only written form is an email where the boss agreed to pay the fees because of her hard work to date.

There was also a misconduct case that that employer knew a member of staff was being abusive and did nothing for a number of months. This is one of the reasons she left. She does not need anything from this employer ever again and would never recommend anyone join the company.

jimmycrackcorm

Stanford wrote:

The Employer offered to pay the fees, The Employee agreed and took the fees (Consideration), a valid contract exists and so your friend is bound to repay the fees, a contract does not have to be in writing, the Court will look at the Intent of the Parties

Acceptance was the taking of the fees. Consideration isn't defined. In my opinion the employer retained the employee services for the years that they stayed while getting fees paid.

If you take your argument to its logical conclusion then the employee would be permanently indentured.

Hoboo

OP

If she can say her original contract did not contain detail of education/training costs she must have the original copy?

If she doesn't, I'd find it hard to believe she remembers every section of her contract in such detail to recall whether a short line regarding costs was included.

If she does have it, then just get her to outline the differences between the two copies and return them to her employer, stating her original contract held no such stipulation.

No need for solicitors (or a meaningless letter)

loyatemu

if you want to look at it from a moral point of view, you couild also consider that paying the fees was the cost to the company of retaining the employee during those years, in the same way they might otherwise have paid a bonus, health insurance or gym membership. If they wanted the fees to be paid back they should have put it IN WRITING.

daithi84

Block the email address. If old boss has a leg to stand on await his legal letter demanding payment. Or demand the signed copy of the employment contract. He is chancing his arm. Hes intimidating her as he knows he fecked up. My employer paid for my college degree and i was required to sign a form, just said i had to stay a certain number of years post qualification, after that i didn't have to repay any money.

dreamers75

Just to note some companies have a education policy which may not form part of a contract but may be something the person agreed to.


Think this is more a moral point and why most companies have it (rightfully) in contractual form now, I know of companies who have in their contracts "adhere to all policies at current time" so may be best to check that out.

helimachoptor

I'm leaving my company in a few weeks with 9 years left on my contract. They've said payback isn't required. (Long service, very good performer etc)
However if they asked I would have payed it back.

My boss went out on a limb and got funding so it's more for him than the company.

Jim2007

listermint wrote: »

What are you even on about,

The company would need to have an explicit policy document in writing that both parties agreed to and it was signed or their is documentary evidence of awknowledgement of an agreement.

The company cannot claim ignorance of contract law, nor should you be advocating it.


Sounds like amateur hour tbh.

What are YOU on about!!!! There is no requirement for a contract with a company to be in writing. Weather a contract existed or not is matter for the courts to decide.

Jim2007

Pheonix10 wrote: »

Could a solicitors letter help here?

A solicitors letter is not worth the paper it is written on. It has no standing in law and is just a way for a solicitor to look like he is doing something in front of the client and collect a fee. In a previous job, I used to average 5 - 10 solicitor's letters per week which all found their way very quickly to the dustbin. Even had a few that sent me their solicitors bills on the expectation that we'd pay them!

No one here can tell you what the outcome will be, but in the absence of any concrete agreement for the repayment of fees, I doubt the company will take it any further than trying to collect it themselves and they will eventually give up on that. The risk of loosing and the costs involved would most likely put them off taking legal action.

The morals of the situation is something she is going to have to decide for herself. However if she is going to have to rely on the company or the manager in the future for a reference, it may be worth considering.

_Brian

Hoboo wrote: »

OP

If she can say her original contract did not contain detail of education/training costs she must have the original copy?

If she doesn't, I'd find it hard to believe she remembers every section of her contract in such detail to recall whether a short line regarding costs was included.

If she does have it, then just get her to outline the differences between the two copies and return them to her employer, stating her original contract held no such stipulation.

No need for solicitors (or a meaningless letter)

I’d disagree with the burden of proof being on the employee.

It was in the companies interest to keep records on this matter. If they made a mistake and have no agreement signed them they must suck it up and move on.

My guess is the manager is in a bind as paperwork should have been completed and retained and wasn’t.