Still worth neutering?

naughtysmurf

It's a little down the line yet but yesterday we got a ten week old shih tzu bichon cross male, lovely happy little chap, it's going to be a house dog, back garden is completely high walled in, will always be on a lead when out with us, obviously we will talk with our vet but is there really a need to neuter in this case?

I've read the reasons for advocating neutering but I'm not sure removing his testicals in our situation, (the thought of it is making my own shrivel up lol) isn't ott

Anyone with same or similar breed not neuter & did you regret not doing so?

Obviously appreciate all responses from all dog owners as we are new to dog ownership.

peasant

In my opinion, as long as you can ensure tat the dog won't reproduce unwantedly (which you seem to be set up to do) there is no reason for neutering.

see here also:
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=94858909

Benno, our ten stone lump of a dog is now going on five years old, fully intact, fully healthy and has the sweetest, unassuming and most peaceful temperament ever.
We're happy we didn't neuter.

VonVix

I have a 3 year old intact male German Shepherd, the primary reason I will neuter him at some point is because we are eventually going to get a 4th dog who will be a female (who we may want to keep intact for a long period too), the secondary reason would be preventing testicular cancer. Otherwise, none of his behaviours are an issue (there's no peeing in the house or humping of the other dogs he interacts with, or anything like that) and he's not going to get access to any females nor is he worth breeding from as he isn't titled and doesn't have any health testing done... but don't tell him I said that.

There may come a point where you will be like "yeah, I should get him neutered for X reasons" and that's fine, nothing wrong with that. But keep in mind you may also hear a lot of "neutering will fix X problems!" which needs to be taken with a pinch of salt.

em_cat

naughtysmurf wrote: »

It's a little down the line yet but yesterday we got a ten week old shih tzu bichon cross male, lovely happy little chap, it's going to be a house dog, back garden is completely high walled in, will always be on a lead when out with us, obviously we will talk with our vet but is there really a need to neuter in this case?

I've read the reasons for advocating neutering but I'm not sure removing his testicals in our situation, (the thought of it is making my own shrivel up lol) isn't ott

Anyone with same or similar breed not neuter & did you regret not doing so?

Obviously appreciate all responses from all dog owners as we are new to dog ownership.

As you are new to dog ownership, I would advocate for neutering. You will have enough issues with possible terrier possession, marking and probably digging/ scent marking, all of which will be more intense without proper handling.

Digging, dogs love to dig, ours does and we encourage him to do so in an appropriate place, as it cuts down on humping, it’s super fun and it helps to relive stress, but when he smells a female in heat you would be surprised at how crafty they can become.

How sure are you that your dog will never bolt out of the car, arms, front door, gate etc? Also you run the risk of him slipping the lead/collar or harness.

Also the dog always being on lead isn’t beneficial, they need off lead time to play and run.

I’m assuming you will be grooming your dog, as the cross you have will most likely need it for health reasons, you will need to find a groomer that takes them intact as it impacts the amount intact females they have on their premises, this is according the place we take our lad.

I say this not as someone who is against or for neutering full stop but as someone who has fostered countless unwanted dogs due to accidental/unplanned litters.

I don’t mean to sound harsh, you need to realise, to a dog it makes no difference psychologically if they are intact or not.

They may feel a little under the weather post op but it literally does not change their personality at all unless there is an underlying medical issue. I’m sure there are tons of people who disagree, but medically speaking

I would however, bear in mind that vets tend to neuter a little too soon, I’d wait until he has stopped growing, but as you’ve a mix he could reach anywhere between 7.5 to 12/14kg.

I do realise that there are a lot of people who are against neutering and I do know a few people who have incredibly well behaved, well adjusted and confident intact males, but for 9 out of 10, they always end up neutering because of the behavioural issues.

Our lad is a rescue, so he came to us neutered, however I’ve had in tact and neutered and tbh training & management is a constant with an intact male.

peasant

em_cat wrote: »

I don’t mean to sound harsh, you need to realise, to a dog it makes no difference psychologically if they are intact or not.

...tbh training & management is a constant with an intact male.

I don't mean to be harsh either...but for such sweeping statements as the two above I think we would need a bit more backing than your personal opinion.

em_cat

peasant wrote: »

I don't mean to be harsh either...but for such sweeping statements as the two above I think we would need a bit more backing than your personal opinion.

Ok,let’s clarify, NCBI studies show that there are better, less invasive ways to desex than to remove the gonads or the ovaries in the case of females.

Removing the organs that produce the sex hormones is going to have an impact, I’m not disputing that, but in terms of absolute psychological impact, studies do not support that.

The studies report an increase in some type of aggressions post op use the C-BARQ questionnaire, the results are measured using self-reported answers by owners. And even these studies report it to be minimal and it has a lot more to do with the environment pre/post op.

While dogs show fear, it is not the same as in humans, it is extremely difficult to counter condition a human to address a fear, especially if the fear was experienced, caused pain or life altering changes. Again this based on both professional and personal experience.

Dog do not feel emasculated as humans do, this is displacement, applying a human emotion that is placed, unfairly, on the dog.

My professional experience has taught me this.

My personal experience has shown me that we have a vast amount of irresponsible dog ownership in ROI and UK & as such if a person is not going to take the responsibility to train, in a positive manner, their dog to ignore the instinct & be happy with it, to procreate then they should neuter.

BTW I’m against neutering as procedure and an humble enough to admit that if I decided to home an intact male dog at some point again I would begin training with an adpt qualified trainer as procedure.

peasant

em_cat wrote: »

Dog do not feel emasculated as humans do, this is displacement, applying a human emotion that is placed, unfairly, on the dog.

There is however the fact that neutered males smell differently than full males (less testosterone in the pee). While this may not affect the neutered dog themselves it does affect other males and their behaviour towards the neutered dog.

In my experience neutered dogs sometimes get approached more aggressively by other males than intact males would. (and no, I cant quote any studies for that )
Neutering for behaviorial reasons (i.e. too much aggression) may not be successful because the now neutered dog faces more "aggro" from other dogs than before and has to fend for himself even harder.
The neutered dog may become less aggressive initially in some circumstances but this effect can quickly be nullified by a hightened need for self defense.

The end result stays the same...snarling, angry dogs at the end of your lead.

IMO aggressive behaviour is not treatable by neutering, it's most definitely a training matter (for dog & lead holder)

Sheepdish1

I would neuter. Although you plan to have your dog in your care , on leash etc unfortunately accidents happen, ie someone leaving door open, dog slipping harness etc and he will be more likely to roam further looking for a mate imo. I would also imagine he will be quite excited around female dogs etc so that could be irritating I would find.

Something that also crossed my mind the other day....someone was telling me there are quite a lot of dogs been stolen in Ireland at the moment. Read about a number of dogs that were dumped and suspected stolen which I thought was odd but they ended up in a shelter thankfully.

A few days later I was talking to someone who was worried about someone taking her small dog and I wondered would her dog be more difficult to get back as he wasn’t neutered if he went missing, in other words would it be used for breeding. It’s just something that crossed my mind that I’d never considered before

em_cat

peasant wrote: »

There is however the fact that neutered males smell differently than full males (less testosterone in the pee). While this may not affect the neutered dog themselves it does affect other males and their behaviour towards the neutered dog.

In my experience neutered dogs sometimes get approached more aggressively by other males than intact males would. (and no, I cant quote any studies for that )
Neutering for behaviorial reasons (i.e. too much aggression) may not be successful because the now neutered dog faces more "aggro" from other dogs than before and has to fend for himself even harder.
The neutered dog may become less aggressive initially in some circumstances but this effect can quickly be nullified by a hightened need for self defense.

The end result stays the same...snarling, angry dogs at the end of your lead.

IMO aggressive behaviour is not treatable by neutering, it's most definitely a training matter (for dog & lead holder)

All of what you are saying is supported at least by the studies I’ve read, & I’d have to agree at least in logic, however even with all that I still think until we’ve reached a point where people are more responsible, then the message has to be to encourage neutering but would like to see a better approach than what we currently have.

In an ideal world we’d all be responsible to look after our animals with their welfare and wellbeing at the forefront.

Knine

Having had lots of dogs over the years, I will not neuter because

I much prefer the coat & muscle tone of entire dogs, early neutered males can be quite leggy & have less bone.
I prefer the personality - more drive, our neutered became very lazy in comparison
Several neutered developed joint issues especially cruciate issues.
Our neutered males while out walking are not near as agile or able to keep up with their entire counterparts of the same breed.
The neutered males & also females are grumpier & more often picked on by other dogs
There is no marking in this house. The dogs are trained to have good manners, no terrier possession. Despite the fact that entire bitches live here & often have entire dogs visiting too.

So nope no more neutered dogs here.

tk123

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

I would also imagine he will be quite excited around female dogs etc so that could be irritating I would find.

My boy is neutered and he gets ‘quite excited’ around some females...and also some neutered males(!) It’s not something I’d do again with a male dog unless there was a serious reason to because of Baileys joint issues and his anxiety/fearfulness in some situations.
Also without getting TMI.. well it takes more than the blink of an eye for dogs to tie... you’d swear it all happened in seconds by some of the scaremongering that gets pushed around.

Also why would you have your dog groomed if it was in heat...it’d just get messy again not long after going by what Lucy was like(!)

boomerang

Knine wrote: »

There is no marking in this house.

So nope no more neutered dogs here.

Just on a side note, you should see the damage un-neutered male dogs do in the vets, though! Urgh! They cock their leg on EVERYTHING from the waiting room through to the consult room. It's disgusting! I know they can't help it as the place must reek to them of other dogs but it's horrible to have to clean up. I've had un-neutered male dogs cock their leg on ME!

My brother's dog wasn't neutered until later in life and still has the ingrained habit of marking everything. He came down to stay last weekend and peed around the front door four times. :rolleyes:

Knine

boomerang wrote: »

Just on a side note, you should see the damage un-neutered male dogs do in the vets, though! Urgh! They cock their leg on EVERYTHING from the waiting room through to the consult room. It's disgusting! I know they can't help it as the place must reek to them of other dogs but it's horrible to have to clean up. I've had un-neutered male dogs cock their leg on ME!

My brother's dog wasn't neutered until later in life and still has the ingrained habit of marking everything. He came down to stay last weekend and peed around the front door four times. :rolleyes:

Actually they can help it. It is an owner issue. Mine certainly don't do this. Not a chance. They are as well behaved as any other dogs. Actually I have never seen any other dogs do it while I'm at the vets either.

boomerang

I guess though I spend a lot more time at the vets than you do.

Knine

boomerang wrote: »

I guess though I spend a lot more time at the vets than you do.

Well I would promptly take it up with any owners. Not a chance would mine do that. Nor would they do it in my house even though 2 weeks ago I had 2 bitches in heat.

borderlinemeath

tk123 wrote: »

My boy is neutered and he gets ‘quite excited’ around some females...and also some neutered males(!) It’s not something I’d do again with a male dog unless there was a serious reason to because of Baileys joint issues and his anxiety/fearfulness in some situations.
Also without getting TMI.. well it takes more than the blink of an eye for dogs to tie... you’d swear it all happened in seconds by some of the scaremongering that gets pushed around.

Also why would you have your dog groomed if it was in heat...it’d just get messy again not long after going by what Lucy was like(!)

That really depends on the female though! If a bitch is "standing" ie literally backing into the dog with the tail cocked up to one side, then it can happen very quickly. Most of the time she's fending them away though. My friends 2 dogs were here (both intact) and her pup went into her first heat and it was the neutered dogs that were aroused first rather than her "brother" It was only when she was at home and slap bang in the middle of her heat that her brother tried to hump her. They were always supervised and crated separately so no hanky panky!


OP, you haven't mentioned socialisation, which is really important if you want to keep your boy intact. I find that some other males may react to intact boys, and if you don't socialise him with all kinds of dogs then he may become reactionary. Out of the intact males that I know, the most reactionary was a male of unknown background who was taken from the pound, he's gotten better over time, but at first he would straight out attack any other intact male that he would meet. Most intact dogs that I know are fine, as they've been socialised since puppyhood and have grown up alongside males both neutered and intact and don't take issue when they get a whiff of testosterone.



As your pup grows and becomes an adolescent and in turn an adult dog, he needs to meet and socialise with all sorts of dogs, you can do this firstly at puppy parties - a lot of vets will run these for their clients. Then at daycare/dog parks or with friends dogs. There is a myth that neutering dogs can cure aggression, but the reality is that with intact dogs - testosterone boosts a dogs confidence, so they can be quicker to lose their temper rather than back away from confrontation with others. Neutering can lessen excessive marking and excessive humping, but it may not eliminate it completely. Intact dogs tend to not mark their own home, but bring them to where other dogs live and it can be a free for all, so if you plan to bring him to friends and family who have pets, be prepared to watch him like a hawk (this is when he's a fully grown adult dog, housetrained and cocking the leg over other dogs scent)

optimist16

We have a collie x. He's 5 now and been with us since a pup. Beautiful looking dog, although I'd be biased:)
He was the runt of the litter which delayed us thinking about getting him neutered and then it was a non issue. He's not that way inclined, doesn't wander and he's not let anyway. But we have a problem.....
We walk everyday and he's off lead until we see people or another dog. I love him, don't want anything to happen to him and as great as he is he's a dog, so it makes sense to ALWAYS clip him on.
Early this year we saw a lady with a dog off the lead coming towards us. My fella is used to the drill so he comes back to be clipped on. The other lady didn't even have a lead with her. Her dog was a good bit larger than mine. Her dog lies down about 10ft in front of us and I didn't detect anything unpleasant at that. Next thing its charged for my fella and in all attacked five times until we got away. The lady hysterically apologized throughout, making the situation worse. She did zero to stop what was happening. The attack lasted for in excess of five minutes. I had walking poles with me and had to lay into her dog. I ended up having to jump into a stream with the two of them. My dog never retaliated. I had another 2 miles to go with a lame dog and wet feet and jeans. I was also shook and angry!!!

A few weeks after, we went to visit my mother who has a neutered Bernese Mountain Dog. My mother is something to do with the society so it is probable that her dog was neutered after fathering litters. He's never been known to attack but we got the same problem.
We had a few days away and left our fella with a friend who has a male dog. They'd have known each other for 3 years and never a problem. When I came back my fella was covered in puncture bites down his spine. When I asked I was told they'd brought a bitch into the house and his neutered dog had attacked my fella.
I then had a bit of a read and was super surprised to find that a neutered dog attacking an entire dog is common knowledge.
Last weekend we did our usual beach walk. A woman is coming towards us. She's on her mobile with two kids in tow and didn't put her dog on a lead. The dog lies down about 10ft away. It comes up and my husband put himself between the dogs. Herself and the kids are calling the dog back but he's not hearing. I kept walking with our fella clipped on. She has to grab her dog by the scruff and pull him away. I blanked her totally because I couldn't trust what I might say, but the dopey mare says "don't know what your problem is he wouldn't do anything to you anyway".

GIVE ME STRENGTH!!!!!!!

cocker5

I suppose its owners choice to be honest from experience it’s important not to neuter / spay too early can lead to joints issues and other issues.

I neutered my cocker at 6 months (he’s nearly 14 now) before I knew better I thought it’s would calm him down… little did I know!

He has hip dysplasia and arthritis - are these linked to neutering too early? Maybe / maybe not… would I take that risk again?

No… personally while I will always neuter / spay but not soo early when the dog has developed.


Does he have other issues related to neutering … nope not that I know of – he’s very well rounded, no fear issues, really well socialised, has never growled or so much as shown his teeth in all the time I’ve had him (since 8 weeks), no issues at all with other dogs or humans…

I would just like to point out while poster on here with unneutered dogs may be super responsible the reality is many many dog owners are not.. and then its oppppssss another litter of pups... so personally unless someone was very knowledgeable about dogs and a super responsible dog owner I wouldn't be discouraging people form neutering their dogs - just my opinion

Knine

borderlinemeath wrote: »

That really depends on the female though! If a bitch is "standing" ie literally backing into the dog with the tail cocked up to one side, then it can happen very quickly. Most of the time she's fending them away though. My friends 2 dogs were here (both intact) and her pup went into her first heat and it was the neutered dogs that were aroused first rather than her "brother" It was only when she was at home and slap bang in the middle of her heat that her brother tried to hump her. They were always supervised and crated separately so no hanky panky!

As someone who has a Stud dog & also brings my bitches to stud dogs believe me it often does not happen quickly at all. In fact even with a willing bitch it can be a nightmare. He certainly does not go around humping other dogs, attacking them or marking either.

A well trained well mannered entire dog is just the same as a neutered one but with a lovely coat, fit & trim, intact joints & a lot more drive. I have wire/harsh coated breeds. Neutering absolutely ruins their coat. The coat no longer serves its original purpose

cocker5

Knine wrote: »

As someone who has a Stud dog & also brings my bitches to stud dogs believe me it often does not happen quickly at all. In fact even with a willing bitch it can be a nightmare. He certainly does not go around humping other dogs, attacking them or marking either.

A well trained well mannered entire dog is just the same as a neutered one but with a lovely coat, fit & trim, intact joints & a lot more drive. I have wire/harsh coated breeds. Neutering absolutely ruins their coat. The coat no longer serves its original purpose

Just on the coat, fit and trim bit -my guy who is neutered has an amazing coat, is super trim (fed him raw) and is flying around at nearly 14 (yes he does have joint issues - possibility related to early neutering) but the rest of him is not ruined.. most people when they meet him think he's 8 ish

borderlinemeath

Knine wrote: »

Well I would promptly take it up with any owners. Not a chance would mine do that. Nor would they do it in my house even though 2 weeks ago I had 2 bitches in heat.

They don't do it in their own house because it's their territory. But I can confirm that pretty much every intact dog that I've had here has cocked their legs in the house because they get the overriding urge to cover a scent and it doesn't matter to them that they do it inside. Procreation comes above training to them. My friend is barred from bringing her intact male to friends and families houses because he marks when he gets a whiff, and he does it in the vets too. And I've been in the vets where it happens with other dogs too.



Boomerang - I've been marked too!

boomerang

BLM I've even been marked by a male un-neutered cat!

borderlinemeath

Knine wrote: »

As someone who has a Stud dog & also brings my bitches to stud dogs believe me it often does not happen quickly at all. In fact even with a willing bitch it can be a nightmare. He certainly does not go around humping other dogs, attacking them or marking either.

Where did I say all dogs do it? I pointed out the importance of socialisation or dogs can be reactive. You meet dogs in a training and ringcraft environment where they are socialised well and used to being around other intact dogs. I try and keep dogs here to one intact male at a time, unless they've been socialising since puppyhood, because I've had plenty of instances where testosterone takes over and it can be handbags at dawn.



Also when you bring your bitch to a stud, you're bringing her to a new territory where she has to meet a new dog so of course she's going to get to know them before letting him at her. I have a customer who shows his dogs and routinely brings his boys to me when one of his females is in heat. One of them will start to stand from the off to her kennel mates.

A well trained well mannered entire dog is just the same as a neutered one but with a lovely coat, fit & trim, intact joints & a lot more drive. I have wire/harsh coated breeds. Neutering absolutely ruins their coat. The coat no longer serves its original purpose

Bensons coat was destroyed with neutering. He's the woolliest setter I've ever seen. Coco got a bit woolly with age and the other 2 have perfect coats.

borderlinemeath

boomerang wrote: »

BLM I've even been marked by a male un-neutered cat!

Oh jesus. :eek:
Although I've had dogs spray a bit of anal gland juice on me a few times and that is the worst.

Knine

cocker5 wrote: »

Just on the coat, fit and trim bit -my guy who is neutered has an amazing coat, is super trim (fed him raw) and is flying around at nearly 14 (yes he does have joint issues - possibility related to early neutering) but the rest of him is not ruined.. most people when they meet him think he's 8 ish

I'm sure he does look great and lots of owners say that & then get a shock when they are standing next to an entire or run them together. There is a difference. Generally the majority of neutered/spayed cannot be hand stripped & need to be clipped. Setters, Retrievers, Collies etc tend to get coats like Wool. I dread getting my older bitch spayed because of the coat changes. I do agree with you sadly on the joint issues. One of ours is the same - he is neutered. He also has no issue having a go at bitches. Neutered males don't seem to differeniate.

I can confirm that my males don't mark in other peoples houses. It is all about teaching them what is acceptable behaviour.

cocker5

Knine wrote: »

I'm sure he does look great and lots of owners say that & then get a shock when they are standing next to an entire or run them together. There is a difference. Generally the majority of neutered/spayed cannot be hand stripped & need to be clipped. Setters, Retrievers, Collies etc tend to get coats like Wool. I dread getting my older bitch spayed because of the coat changes. I do agree with you sadly on the joint issues. One of ours is the same - he is neutered. He also has no issue having a go at bitches. Neutered males don't seem to differeniate.

I can confirm that my males don't mark in other peoples houses. It is all about teaching them what is acceptable behaviour.

totally agree with you on the behaviour side of things... its all about rules and boundaries...

fathead82

I got my male retriever neutered when he was 8,it destroyed his coat,he lost his fit,well toned look & he suddenly developed a fear of thunder & gunshots.
Maybe he was coming to an age where some of that would have happened anyway but I'd never get a male neutered again. He's almost 15 now.

sillysmiles

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

A few days later I was talking to someone who was worried about someone taking her small dog and I wondered would her dog be more difficult to get back as he wasn’t neutered if he went missing, in other words would it be used for breeding. It’s just something that crossed my mind that I’d never considered before

Our dog's tag says "neutered and microchipped" and then my phone number but not the dogs name or my name

optimist16

fathead82 wrote: »

I got my male retriever neutered when he was 8,it destroyed his coat,he lost his fit,well toned look & he suddenly developed a fear of thunder & gunshots.
Maybe he was coming to an age where some of that would have happened anyway but I'd never get a male neutered again. He's almost 15 now.

I'll leave Dfor's bits where they are going by that. Nothing to say if I get him "done" now he won't still get attacked. No holiday for us until we can figure where to safely put him though. He's flying around the mountain with his glossy coat and people think he's a pup. He's super healthy so I won't go messing.

boomerang

Just do bear in mind there are some health implications for un-neutered male dogs in their older years. Testicular cancer, enlarged prostate and peri-anal adenomas.

optimist16

boomerang wrote: »

Just do bear in mind there are some health implications for un-neutered male dogs in their older years. Testicular cancer, enlarged prostate and peri-anal adenomas.

Ah fck it! I might as well take my chances and book a holiday.

naughtysmurf

Thanks for the replies so far, plenty to think about & consider.....we do plan absolutely to be responsible owners, hadn't really thought about socialisation as we are new to this, pup is chipped & first round of vaccinations are done,
I'd imagine he will be a pampered house dog with a high probability of a few walks a day, never out on his own, well fed & mothered to death by our 13 year-old daughter....

cocker5

naughtysmurf wrote: »

Thanks for the replies so far, plenty to think about & consider.....we do plan absolutely to be responsible owners, hadn't really thought about socialisation as we are new to this, pup is chipped & first round of vaccinations are done,
I'd imagine he will be a pampered house dog with a high probability of a few walks a day, never out on his own, well fed & mothered to death by our 13 year-old daughter....

Walks are not enough socializing for a pup google local puppy classes / meet up tgese will help a lot!

borderlinemeath

^^
Yep, socialisation is vital, neutered or intact. Particularly as you say, he'll never be off lead. If you don't get enough socialisation, you could end up with a leash reactive dog, who loses it at every dog who he encounters on walks.

alroley

Yesterday my 9 year old dog was neutered and had a perineal hernia repaired. The hernia meant some organs had moved to just under his skin. This was more than likely caused by him not being neutered. I feel very guilty that he had to go through a surgery because I chose not to get him neutered

L1985

Honestly it all depends on the dog. We have two bitches we have neutered and that wasn't under discussion. We got a lab at aged 2 male and intact who is now 14. We didn't neuter our lab because he didn't need it. Never wandered was never aggressive and is the most laid back dog ever. Wouldn't be around other dogs a huge amount but in general hasn't been attacked. I'd play it by ear and if he needs it done and it's an issue get it done. We have done it with other males we had when they started wandering looking for females so really depends on the dog-play it by ear!

naughtysmurf

Yes, I think at the moment, taking everything into consideration I'm in the let's wait & see & play it by ear camp,