Lowering the rent for family member.

mickmac76

Hi
I currently rent out my apartment for €800 a month. My current tenants are leaving in January and a family member would like to rent the apartment for a year while they build a new house themselves. They could afford to pay me €500 a month and I'm happy with this. I'm wondering though when they move out can I put the rent back up to €800 as the apartment is in a rent pressure zone. This limits rent increases to 4% but I would only be increasing the rent to a previous point. Any ideas on whether this would work.

GGTrek

mickmac76 wrote: »

Hi
I currently rent out my apartment for €800 a month. My current tenants are leaving in January and a family member would like to rent the apartment for a year while they build a new house themselves. They could afford to pay me €500 a month and I'm happy with this. I'm wondering though when they move out can I put the rent back up to €800 as the apartment is in a rent pressure zone. This limits rent increases to 4% but I would only be increasing the rent to a previous point. Any ideas on whether this would work.

Short answer is no.

Ragnar Lothbrok

Could you keep the rent at €800 and then gift back €300? Or have the agreement/lease recorded at €800 but only take €500 from them?

It's good of you to help out family members and hopefully you wouldn't be penalised for this.

Fian

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Could you keep the rent at €800 and then gift back €300? Or have the agreement/lease recorded at €800 but only take €500 from them?

It's good of you to help out family members and hopefully you wouldn't be penalised for this.

If you do this you must pay tax on 800 and the relative is potentially on the hook to also pay gift tax on the 300 per month they are being gifted. also you would want to apply teh RPZ increase on the 800 before entering a new lease or you will be capped at a lower rent than would otherwise be available.

RPZs do not make it easy to rent to relatives or anyone else at a discount to market rates. Because you are caught in a permanent trap of letting that generousity flow through to all subsequent tenants as well.

Bandana boy

Your best bet would be to rent for 800 a month , let tenant go in arrears for 300 a month and at the end right off the arrears .

or better still rent off the book without a contract

Ragnar Lothbrok

Fian wrote: »

If you do this you must pay tax on 800 and the relative is potentially on the hook to also pay gift tax on the 300 per month they are being gifted. also you would want to apply teh RPZ increase on the 800 before entering a new lease or you will be capped at a lower rent than would otherwise be available.

RPZs do not make it easy to rent to relatives or anyone else at a discount to market rates. Because you are caught in a permanent trap of letting that generousity flow through to all subsequent tenants as well.

Sounds like a nightmare. How about claiming that the relatives are staying there rent-free, and they give the LL €500 in cash and say nothing to anyone? Although I suppose this is probably be illegal too, as the €500 would presumably be taxable?

LuckyLloyd

He should be entitled to rent at X and allow an arrear of Y to build up each month without taking action at his discretion I believe? I don't believe any rules are broken in that case. His tenant is technically in breach of the lease agreement from the moment the arrear becomes overdue but hey ho.

PhoenixParker

Is there a way you can set them up as a licensee/rent a room?

s7ryf3925pivug

First 3k in gifts a year is exempt from tax, so the tax would not be huge. Not sure if it needs to be a first degree relative for this to apply, but it definitely applies for first degree relatives.

Varik

What about taking the full rent but having it inclusive of some bills. You can claim them as expenses as well.

https://www.revenue.ie/en/property/rental-income/irish-rental-income/what-expenses-are-allowed.aspx


I think arrears idea would still work out against them, from the way things are they're more than a few people who'd if they managed to overhear how nice he's being would report it and there's no way to know how much more the government will overstep in the future where that could matter. Think you'd also be into claims of a gift as well.

mickmac76

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Is there a way you can set them up as a licensee/rent a room?

Wow thanks for all the replies so far. Far faster than I thought. Unfortunately I can't do a rent a room scheme to them as I don't live there any more. I'm living with my parents due to an illness and my parents get carers allowance for looking after me and revenue know all this as I'm registered as living with them both with the revenue commissionars and social security but thanks for the idea.

davindub

mickmac76 wrote: »

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Is there a way you can set them up as a licensee/rent a room?

Wow thanks for all the replies so far. Far faster than I thought. Unfortunately I can't do a rent a room scheme to them as I don't live there any more. I'm living with my parents due to an illness and my parents get carers allowance for looking after me and revenue know all this as I'm registered as living with them both with the revenue commissionars and social security but thanks for the idea.

Some family members are exempted from the RT act. So no need to register the tenancy and doesnt effect the rent increase calculation.

Btw allowing the tenant to go into arrears and writing off the difference wouldnt work in my opinion, its more a pub talk kind of suggestion

Shelli2

When we applied for our mortgage, our lender took rent paid into consideration for calculating means of repayment. They required a copy of our lease and it showed the rent paid via our bank account each month.
If our rent was in arrears every month we would never have gotten a mortgage.

Keep everything above board, and keep a paper trail. For your sakes and theirs.

ESMITH29

Can they pay 800 directly into your bank, as per a lease agreement and then you can give them 300 in cash each month?

Give them a licensee agreement. Normally this could be challenged by the tenant but as they are family they will accept the terms and so you should be able to proceed as a licensee setup.

If you want to be doubly sure you can "maintain access" and even "maintain a room" for your own use even if you never use them as your family members are not going to take you to the RTB claiming they are tenants and that you never stayed there etc.

Also just to be clear I am not suggesting that you can use rent a room relief in this scenario but you should be able to stay out of the claws of the RTA.

If it was me and my family member I'd have different idea on how this scenario would work but what I would suggest would not be allowed to be discussed here...

GGTrek

If this relative is a close family member (brother or niece, cousins are already inside RTA scope) the OP can do anything he/she wants. Should not even have a tenancy agreement. Revenue could be an issue but RTB is out of the equation. Now if this relative is not such a close family member then trust is paramount. Out of an enlarged family of almost 50 people I would not trust more than 7 with such a deal. Hopefully the OP has a better enlarged family than mine! If things go south with such a deal the OP will pay very dearly for the good deed.

Box09

mickmac76 wrote:

Hi I currently rent out my apartment for €800 a month. My current tenants are leaving in January and a family member would like to rent the apartment for a year while they build a new house themselves. They could afford to pay me €500 a month and I'm happy with this. I'm wondering though when they move out can I put the rent back up to €800 as the apartment is in a rent pressure zone. This limits rent increases to 4% but I would only be increasing the rent to a previous point. Any ideas on whether this would work.

I don't see an issue here. Rent it for whatever you want and keep the 800 on the lease.

Ragnar Lothbrok

Ragnar Lothbrok wrote: »

Could you keep the rent at €800 and then gift back €300? Or have the agreement/lease recorded at €800 but only take €500 from them?

It's good of you to help out family members and hopefully you wouldn't be penalised for this.

Box09 wrote: »

I don't see an issue here. Rent it for whatever you want and keep the 800 on the lease.

ESMITH29 wrote: »

Can they pay 800 directly into your bank, as per a lease agreement and then you can give them 300 in cash each month?

Fian wrote: »

If you do this you must pay tax on 800 and the relative is potentially on the hook to also pay gift tax on the 300 per month they are being gifted. also you would want to apply teh RPZ increase on the 800 before entering a new lease or you will be capped at a lower rent than would otherwise be available.

RPZs do not make it easy to rent to relatives or anyone else at a discount to market rates. Because you are caught in a permanent trap of letting that generousity flow through to all subsequent tenants as well.

Same question has now been asked three times in just a few posts. Fian answered this after the first time I asked it: There would be tax implications for the LL if they pretend they are getting €800 a month.

Only a few posts in this thread, so why are people asking the same question over and over?

pekitivey

Am I right in saying you can earn up to 10, 000 euro a year before you have to start paying tax? would it be possible to take the dwelling off the rental market for 12 months and figure out a private, yet legal payment. as the agreed price is only 6, 000 a year? I currently rent a room and this is the understanding I have with my LL.

.......

pekitivey wrote: »

Am I right in saying you can earn up to 10, 000 euro a year before you have to start paying tax? would it be possible to take the dwelling off the rental market for 12 months and figure out a private, yet legal payment. as the agreed price is only 6, 000 a year? I currently rent a room and this is the understanding I have with my LL.

No. You pay tax on all of the rental income.

loyatemu

is there more than 1 person moving in? As previously mentioned just give them a refund, provided it's not more than 3K per year per person there is no tax implication.

aluminium

There are a couple of things here. Firstly never rent to a family member.
That said, you are prob., in a situation that you cant get out of.
Now, how much do you trust this family member. ? Can you be sure that there will be no rows or fall outs a year down the road?
Can they trust you?

Ill just throw this out there, assuming your both as trustworthy as each other, Id suggest a meeting of all of you including a parent. State that you are financially insecure and that you need the rent. However you dont want to screw the family and would like to help them.

On that basis, you are prepared to rent the property for 500 euro, state that yopu were getting 800 and have been offered 900 off someone else. Tell them you will collect the 500 monthly or they can leave the rent in the "mothers".

Use the rent to pay the day to day bills including holidays, clothes etc. Pay your mortage with your salary and do not register with the PRTB.

Should arguments escalate out of control you can always register with the PRTB late with the double fee.

I will say and warn

---

there will be a row further down the line. "tell Tom I cant pay the rent this month because Im going to Thailand for Samanthas wedding".

ELM327

Bandana boy wrote: »

Your best bet would be to rent for 800 a month , let tenant go in arrears for 300 a month and at the end write off the arrears .

or better still rent off the book without a contract

This is the best, and as far as I can fathom, only, legal way to do this.
Of course, the fact that the tenant is in arrears with your permission shoudl not be documented anywhere.

Fian

Honestly - just offer to give your family member €200 per month towards his rent and tell him to rent from someone else. You would be far better off and far less likely to fall out, and it would be much clearer what is going on in this situation.

This below market rent thing is a recipe for disaster. Your generousity will potentially end up with you being painted as a villain. You will be resented for extracting €500 rent rather than appreciated for foregoing €350.

Unless it is a sibling, I could see myself doing this for my brothers, but no way for a cousin.

It may be too lateor you to pull out of the arrangement. Could you say your sitting tenant is refusing to vacate?

I don’t get people’s fear of renting or doing business with family in general. Maybe people have funny relationships with family but I would trust my family far more than anyone else and I would 100% know they would not do me over or vice versa. Family looks out for each other, well at least that’s how it is in my family and absolutely zero chance of falling out. Also scope for a cash setup when it’s family....

meijin

Anders Few Rubbish wrote: »

I don’t get people’s fear of renting or doing business with family in general. Maybe people have funny relationships with family but I would trust my family far more than anyone else and I would 100% know they would not do me over or vice versa. Family looks out for each other, well at least that’s how it is in my family.

what would you do if they stop paying (because they lose a job, or something happens)? or they ask for further reduction? try to kick them out as any other tenant?

why not rent to non-relative, and give the relative 300e cash each month instead? much simpler...

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Nox001, I think you're a bit naive concerning human nature. Especially where money is involved, "Where there's a will there's a relative".

Ragnar Lothbrok

pekitivey wrote: »

Am I right in saying you can earn up to 10, 000 euro a year before you have to start paying tax? would it be possible to take the dwelling off the rental market for 12 months and figure out a private, yet legal payment. as the agreed price is only 6, 000 a year? I currently rent a room and this is the understanding I have with my LL.

Do you live with the LL or are you renting a room in a house he doesn't live in? My understanding is that if you rent a room in the house where the LL lives, the LL is exempt from paying tax on anything under 10K per annum (I am open to correction here).

The OP situation is not the same as he is renting out the entire house to his relatives.

.......

Anders Few Rubbish wrote: »

I don’t get people’s fear of renting or doing business with family in general. Maybe people have funny relationships with family but I would trust my family far more than anyone else and I would 100% know they would not do me over or vice versa. Family looks out for each other, well at least that’s how it is in my family and absolutely zero chance of falling out. Also scope for a cash setup when it’s family....

Terrible idea to do business with family in general.

Always subject to the "ah shure you cant kick uncle mickey out when he is down on his uppers!!".

The history of litigation between family members and legal challenges to wills would bear out the facts that family screw each other over as often as anyone else, but in fact, the effects are worse because everybody else gets involved.

Business is business and family is family. Never the twain do mix.

If the OP wants to help his family member he would be better off renting the property to someone for 800 euro and then giving the family member 300 euro cash per month towards their own rent elsewhere.

meijin

meijin wrote: »

what would you do if they stop paying (because they lose a job, or something happens)? or they ask for further reduction? try to kick them out as any other tenant?

why not rent to non-relative, and give the relative 300e cash each month instead? much simpler...

Because my realationa aren’t useless pr1cks who stop paying rent, there is an infinitely higher chance a stranger stopping paying rent.

Any financial dealings I have with family are a pleasure compared to dealing with strangers.

Having a family member in a property is vastly preferable than a stranger.

L1011

Anders Few Rubbish wrote: »

but what I would suggest would not be allowed to be discussed here...

Anders Few Rubbish wrote: »

Also scope for a cash setup when it’s family....

Any further suggestions to break the law will be met with a ban

ouxbbkqtswdfaw

Aaliyah Angry Cement wrote:

Because my realationa aren’t useless pr1cks who stop paying rent, there is an infinitely higher chance a stranger stopping paying rent.

Sometimes it's not the siblings that are the problem, but their spouses.

.......

Anders Few Rubbish wrote: »

Because my realationa aren’t useless pr1cks who stop paying rent, there is an infinitely higher chance a stranger stopping paying rent.

Yes, but on the small chance that your family member DOES stop paying the rent, through no fault of their own, lost a job, got sick, whatever, your hands are tied because, you said it yourself, family help each other out.

Its your assumption that people who are unable to pay rent are all useless pr1cks that is clouding your view on the reality of it.

Dial Hard

....... wrote: »

Yes, but on the small chance that your family member DOES stop paying the rent, through no fault of their own, lost a job, got sick, whatever, your hands are tied because, you said it yourself, family help each other out.

I've been renting off my brother for over 5 years and there has never been a single issue on either side. I was unemployed for 9 months of last year and wouldn't have even dreamed of asking for a stay on the rent or anything of the sort.

It's rare I find myself agreeing with Nox on pretty much anything but I kind of have to agree with him here, I don't understand the dire warnings about renting to family. It's been a win-win situation for both sides in my case.

John_Rambo

Dial Hard wrote: »

I've been renting off my brother for over 5 years and there has never been a single issue on either side. I was unemployed for 9 months of last year and wouldn't have even dreamed of asking for a stay on the rent or anything of the sort.

It's rare I find myself agreeing with Nox on pretty much anything but I kind of have to agree with him here, I don't understand the dire warnings about renting to family. It's been a win-win situation for both sides in my case.

Well, at least you're speaking from experience. Fair play to you for holding it for 9 months of unemployment.

.......

Dial Hard wrote: »

I've been renting off my brother for over 5 years and there has never been a single issue on either side. I was unemployed for 9 months of last year and wouldn't have even dreamed of asking for a stay on the rent or anything of the sort.

It's rare I find myself agreeing with Nox on pretty much anything but I kind of have to agree with him here, I don't understand the dire warnings about renting to family. It's been a win-win situation for both sides in my case.

And thats great, and youre great.

But when a family member ISNT so great, then its much much harder to do anything about it, because they are family.

Theres no point in burying heads in the sand, anyone might stop paying the rent. The issue is far worse when the anyone is a family member.

Obvious Desperate Breakfasts

I think one’s view on renting to family really depends on personal experience. There’s no right answer. For me, some family I would rent to or from and some I’d steer clear of. It’s not been my experience that things always remain harmonious when family is involved. Sometimes it massively complicates things. It’s harder to remove a family member who stops paying and lifelong bad blood can ensue. When dealing with strangers, if something goes wrong, you can have nothing more to with them once things are straightened out. Much harder to do with family.

PhoenixParker

There's a lot to be said for considering what your relative is asking in purely financial terms.

€300 * 12 = €3,600

If he came and asked for that much money, not as a loan, as a straight up gift, would you give it to him? Thats effectively what he's asking. Never mind the rent collection etc.

There are family members I'd do that for, but unless there was a benefit/offset to me (reduced tax, flexibility, property better cared for, upfront payment), I wouldn't do it for a cousin.

Kingp35

As a Revenue Auditor up to a few months ago there is some poor advice in this thread.

Do not keep €800 on the lease and only accept €500 as you will be taxed on the full €800. Even the idea of letting the family member go into arrears is a bad idea as Revenue will still look for tax on the full €800 as that's what is on the lease. When you try to write off the arrears as a bad debt they may come looking for an explanation and when it becomes clear it was a family member staying in the property they will more than likely assume you got the remainder in cash and still charge you tax on the full €800.

If you decide to deregister the property with the PRTB and rent it "off the books" so to speak, revenue will come looking for an explanation as to what you're doing with the property. If you can't offer a proper explanation, again you'll be charged tax on the full €800.

Honestly the best advice in this situation is do not rent to the family member unless you charge them full rent and everything is above board.

Dial Hard

....... wrote: »

And thats great, and youre great.

But when a family member ISNT so great, then its much much harder to do anything about it, because they are family.

Theres no point in burying heads in the sand, anyone might stop paying the rent. The issue is far worse when the anyone is a family member.

People are presenting it as a gilt-edged guarantee that renting to family will result in issues - "Never rent to a family member", "There will be a row further down the line".

I accept that I have skin in this game but it's unfair and untrue to suggest that blanket rules apply.

Fian

Dial Hard wrote: »

People are presenting it as a gilt-edged guarantee that renting to family will result in issues - "Never rent to a family member", "There will be a row further down the line".

I accept that I have skin in this game but it's unfair and untrue to suggest that blanket rules apply.

Well even if no row ensues - the scenario discussed here is renting about €350 below the RPZ permitted rent. €800pm + the permissible increase (which I am assuming would only be a 5% increase of €50) Which itself is a reason to be wary of renting to family.

Most tenants do not like their landlords, most people resent paying rent to them every month. Which is understandable, especially as the landlord generally has at least 2 properties and the tenant frequently wants to but hasn't yet been able to purchase their first.

LuckyLloyd

Fian wrote: »

Most tenants do not like their landlords, most people resent paying rent to them every month. Which is understandable, especially as the landlord generally has at least 2 properties and the tenant frequently wants to but hasn't yet been able to purchase their first.

That's utterly ridiculous. I have never heard anyone I know who is renting express any "resentment" at paying for a service. There is anger when LandLords take the piss, but that's completely reasonable.

Moonbeam

rent them a room in the apt rather then the whole apt?

.......

Fian wrote: »

Most tenants do not like their landlords, most people resent paying rent to them every month. Which is understandable, especially as the landlord generally has at least 2 properties and the tenant frequently wants to but hasn't yet been able to purchase their first.

Most people do not hold resentment for paying for a service they receive.

Thats like saying most people resent LIDL because they have to pay for their shopping there.

And how would a tenant know how many properties a landlord has?

Fian

....... wrote: »

Most people do not hold resentment for paying for a service they receive.

Thats like saying most people resent LIDL because they have to pay for their shopping there.

And how would a tenant know how many properties a landlord has?

Fine, I hear enough people grumbling about the cost of rent to imagine most tenants resent paying it, but maybe I am entirely imagining that and jumping to conclusions. Perhaps the vast majority of tenants are entirely happy with the rents they are being charged and the RPZs were entirely unecessary.

When I referred to two properties - if I was renting off somebody I would assume they owned the place I was renting and owned a second property they lived in themselves - therefore that they owned at least two properties. But again, perhaps I am just prone to jumping to conclusions.

Having said that maybe "most tenants do not like their landlords" was a bit over the top.

New Home

Are the rules different for holiday accommodation? Would something like that work?

handlemaster

OP just be clear your giving 3600 to this relative. .. I think we might be related. Let me know when your other relation has moved out.. remember no good deed goes unpunished

kippy

....... wrote: »

Terrible idea to do business with family in general.

Always subject to the "ah shure you cant kick uncle mickey out when he is down on his uppers!!".

The history of litigation between family members and legal challenges to wills would bear out the facts that family screw each other over as often as anyone else, but in fact, the effects are worse because everybody else gets involved.

Business is business and family is family. Never the twain do mix.

If the OP wants to help his family member he would be better off renting the property to someone for 800 euro and then giving the family member 300 euro cash per month towards their own rent elsewhere.

Not sure how to help the OP but I'm with Nox on this one. Families " do business" within the family group all the time and in general get along with things perfectly fine. The same as for wills etc. These types of transactions are extremely common and of course like a lot of other things in life you only hear about the ones that happen with negative consequences which in my experience is a very small percentage of cases, a lot less percentage wise than non family transactions.

The Phantom Jipper

mickmac76 wrote: »

Wow thanks for all the replies so far. Far faster than I thought. Unfortunately I can't do a rent a room scheme to them as I don't live there any more. I'm living with my parents due to an illness and my parents get carers allowance for looking after me and revenue know all this as I'm registered as living with them both with the revenue commissionars and social security but thanks for the idea.

Not to be poking my nose into your business but your situation with the illness sounds quite challenging. It sounds like the money may be better in your pocket than your relative's? Personally I wouldn't be asking an ill relative to subsidise my accomodation and you're well within your rights to say no if you dont fancy being down 3.5k and the headache of being a landlord to a family member.

.......

kippy wrote: »

Not sure how to help the OP but I'm with Nox on this one. Families " do business" within the family group all the time and in general get along with things perfectly fine. The same as for wills etc. These types of transactions are extremely common and of course like a lot of other things in life you only hear about the ones that happen with negative consequences which in my experience is a very small percentage of cases, a lot less percentage wise than non family transactions.

And again, I dont disagree, but you have spectacularly missed the point.

No one is suggesting that ALL family transactions/business go wrong - which is what you seem to assume?

Its when there IS a problem that it is vastly magnified if the problem tenant is a family member.

Ive no idea where you are getting your percentages from, or even how they are relevant. The point still stands that if a problem arises, its easier to manage it with a non family member than a family member.