Do you agree with zoos?

Sheepdish1

Was thinking earlier about zoos and whether or not we look back and think they are unethical or not.

I obviously love animals and used to like going to the zoo to see them but have lately started to feel different them. I recently visited a zoo in Europe and it was upsetting to see the animals. The apes in particular actually seemed depressed and bored in their enclosures.

It got me thinking about zoos and what they actually do for the animals.

I know that people argue they are to try and increase the population of certain endangered animals. But is it not just pointless if the habitat they *should* live in is not conserved? For example what is the benefit of a lion living in relatively small enclosure it’s entire life in city?
Seems like pretty miserable existence for us just to gawk at it for our entertainment.


How many of them are actually released into natural habitats ? Do zoos increase the population of these animals in the wild ? How many animals need to be euthanised? Is it stressful on animals to be confined in enclosures their entire lives?

Conservation parks are completely different in my opinion.... in this situation the animals are living in their natural environments.

I know to an extent they educate people but could it be argued that there is no need for zoos to exist for this purpose with all the access and incredible nature programmes and other forms of education ?

Why do people feel so strongly about that sealife is cruel and not feel the same about zoos ?

Birdnuts

Some animals are totally unsuitable for zoos and should not be kept there eg.wolves and Polar Bears. Specialized zoos like Bristol that have a focus on securing smaller endangered species populations with a view to re-introduction to the wild do have a role. Dublin Zoo does some good work in this regards and is one of the best Zoos out there atm, especially compared to the grim place it was in the 80's and earlier.

cocker5

I just think in this day and age there is no need for a zoo .. it’s a place we keep animals on view for humans to get a closer look? Are we not past this? Personally I hate them.

With regard to the conservation side and ‘re introducing’ species into the wild .. this is a rare occurrence most animals born in captivity cannot be introduced into the wild. As they don’t have a strong drive for those instincts .. most are bottle fed and not by the mothers , rejection often occurs

I am all for conservation in the animals natural habitat but no not in zoos .. it’s a total unnatural place for these animals and they cannot exercise their normal habits

Went to the born free foundation in SA they show you the true extent of ‘so Called breeding programs’

We should invest more money in stopping poachers etc and keeping the animals in their own habitats not locking them in a zoo - just my opinion!

VonVix

There are terrible, terrible zoos out there, where it is more designed for people than the animals. Here in Dublin however, I believe we have a fantastic zoo. Most of the enclosures are designed for the animals needs.

The African Painted Dogs. I was told by one of the keepers it's extremely hard to get them to breed, if they are startled at all that they can eat their own young. I have visited the zoo many times and have barely ever seen them, their enclosure is designed that they can get away from being viewed by people if they wish.

The Elephant enclosure has been designed to simulate natural behaviours. Dust baths, having to stretch their trunks to reach food, swimming pools and again their enclosure has been designed that if they don't want to be within sight of people, they can move away, so if they are out of sight in the main area, you literally have to stand on your tippytoes to see them or peek through a small gap in a bush, sometimes you can't see them at all.

There are actually a lot of enclosures where you can't clearly see the animals unless they are happy to be in sight by the public. I think a lot of people don't realise this.

They have made a point of enrichment being an important part of how their animals are fed (foraging, reaching high for food, diving in water for food, etc), making sure that it's mentally stimulating and they behave as naturally as possible.

That's not to say that there aren't areas that need improving, but I have seen huge changes and improvements. If we are to have zoos, this is the kind of zoo I want to see.

lolo62

Dublin zoo is one of the better zoos but even they still have some pretty depressing enclosures. The snow leopard always looks so miserable.

At least we don't stone animals to death here though trying to get them to 'perform'. This happened in China recently. I think it was a polar bear they killed. Obviously zoos like that should be shut down. China is a different story when it comes to animal welfare in general though.

seamus

European zoos have largely moved beyond the "entertainment" bit and have shifted their focus onto being more like museums - places of education, research and conservation which are funded by visitors.

As a rule I won't visit a zoo without doing my research on it to see what kind of ethos it runs under. Dublin Zoo still has the odd depressing enclosure, but it's clear that they are working constantly to improve facilities, it's just a big job.

witchgirl26

I went to a zoo in a eastern European country while over there last year and I wanted to cry at how small and cramped the whole thing was for the animals. It was definitely designed more for the people visiting than for the comfort of the animals.

However when you see The Zoo programme on RTE and they're talking about species that are extinct in the wild but they've (and other zoo's obviously) managed to breed successfully in the zoo and are hoping to introduce to wildlife parks in Africa again shortly and from there back into the wild, it does make me think that there is a place for them in terms of conservation and protection of animals. I get the point that's made above about re-introduction but I think there way they were talking about this one it's not a short process of just putting them in the wild but actually breeding them in a wildlife park in their natural habitat and only then introducing to the wild.

metaoblivia

I'm torn about zoos because I enjoy having the opportunity to see animals I would otherwise never see, the enclosures can be small. I do recognize that many zoos do important research and conversation projects as well. Here in CA, you've got on the Sacramento Zoo on the one hand, where all of the enclosures are just so small. And on the other hands, you have the San Diego Zoo which is huge and has built massive enclosures for many of its animals. And the SD Zoo Safari Park is even more massive and has the animals living on a open piece of land that's as large as the regular zoo itself. That seems at least more natural and enjoyable than the traditional zoo model.

The SD Zoo is also famous for saving the California Condor. In the early 1980s, only around 20 were left. They were captured and all sent to the SD Zoo. Thanks to their breeding program, there are now almost 400 California condors and nearly half of those have been released back into the wild. I liked that they focused on conserving a native, regional species that was on the brink of extinction.

Sheepdish1

metaoblivia wrote: »

I'm torn about zoos because I enjoy having the opportunity to see animals I would otherwise never see, the enclosures can be small. I do recognize that many zoos do important research and conversation projects as well. Here in CA, you've got on the Sacramento Zoo on the one hand, where all of the enclosures are just so small. And on the other hands, you have the San Diego Zoo which is huge and has built massive enclosures for many of its animals. And the SD Zoo Safari Park is even more massive and has the animals living on a open piece of land that's as large as the regular zoo itself. That seems at least more natural and enjoyable than the traditional zoo model.

The SD Zoo is also famous for saving the California Condor. In the early 1980s, only around 20 were left. They were captured and all sent to the SD Zoo. Thanks to their breeding program, there are now almost 400 California condors and nearly half of those have been released back into the wild. I liked that they focused on conserving a native, regional species that was on the brink of extinction.

Yes , I am torn between it too as I do love to see the animals but I felt kind of sad looking at the elephants the last time I was in the zoo. I do know that the staff etc 100% love the animals too and do what the can in terms of enrichment but the enclosures just don't have the space that the animal would experience in its natural habitat. I know we can try do our best to simulate this but I feel it must be incredibly stressful for the animals......I would imagine they become quite sick / fight more etc in enclosed spaces. Look at how much space they should have to roam and compare it to what they do have, these aren't domesticated animals, they are wild animals or animals born into captivity.

is it not be more difficult to breed in captivity also?

The large safari parks you are describing are fantastic and it is wonderful that they have the space to do that and by what you are saying they actually increase the population by releasing animals back into the wild. This is great that this is happening.

But for some reason, I don't think this is what most zoos do, I would be of the opinion that most zoos are purely for human entertainment. Even if there are breeding programmes I can imagine even moving the animals to different locations must be incredibly stressful on them.

Sheepdish1

cocker5 wrote: »

I just think in this day and age there is no need for a zoo .. it’s a place we keep animals on view for humans to get a closer look? Are we not past this? Personally I hate them.

With regard to the conservation side and ‘re introducing’ species into the wild .. this is a rare occurrence most animals born in captivity cannot be introduced into the wild. As they don’t have a strong drive for those instincts .. most are bottle fed and not by the mothers , rejection often occurs

I am all for conservation in the animals natural habitat but no not in zoos .. it’s a total unnatural place for these animals and they cannot exercise their normal habits

Went to the born free foundation in SA they show you the true extent of ‘so Called breeding programs’

We should invest more money in stopping poachers etc and keeping the animals in their own habitats not locking them in a zoo - just my opinion!

Would you mind explaining more about what you mean about the ''so called breeding programmes''.

I have found I am recently very much so on the fence about zoos lately. Safari parks / conservation parks etc in the environment where the animal should live just seems to make more sense.

I wonder what David Attenbouragh's views are on zoos

Sheepdish1

witchgirl26 wrote: »

I went to a zoo in a eastern European country while over there last year and I wanted to cry at how small and cramped the whole thing was for the animals. It was definitely designed more for the people visiting than for the comfort of the animals.

However when you see The Zoo programme on RTE and they're talking about species that are extinct in the wild but they've (and other zoo's obviously) managed to breed successfully in the zoo and are hoping to introduce to wildlife parks in Africa again shortly and from there back into the wild, it does make me think that there is a place for them in terms of conservation and protection of animals. I get the point that's made above about re-introduction but I think there way they were talking about this one it's not a short process of just putting them in the wild but actually breeding them in a wildlife park in their natural habitat and only then introducing to the wild.

I understand that. It would be interesting to find out how many animals are bred in captivity such as zoos compared to wildlife parks or protected parks. I'm undecided on how I feel about them so just thought it would be interesting to see different opinions

cocker5

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

cocker5 wrote: »

I just think in this day and age there is no need for a zoo .. it’s a place we keep animals on view for humans to get a closer look? Are we not past this? Personally I hate them.

With regard to the conservation side and ‘re introducing’ species into the wild .. this is a rare occurrence most animals born in captivity cannot be introduced into the wild. As they don’t have a strong drive for those instincts .. most are bottle fed and not by the mothers , rejection often occurs

I am all for conservation in the animals natural habitat but no not in zoos .. it’s a total unnatural place for these animals and they cannot exercise their normal habits

Went to the born free foundation in SA they show you the true extent of ‘so Called breeding programs’

We should invest more money in stopping poachers etc and keeping the animals in their own habitats not locking them in a zoo - just my opinion!

Would you mind explaining more about what you mean about the ''so called breeding programmes''.

I have found I am recently very much so on the fence about zoos lately. Safari parks / conservation parks etc in the environment where the animal should live just seems to make more sense.

I wonder what David Attenbouragh's views are on zoos

My point on so called breeding programmes was most day they are breeding in order to protect species / re introduce into the wild but in reality animals bred in captivity cannot be re introduction.. their mothers who are usually also bred in captivity don’t have the wild instincts of their predecessors .. most don’t care for the young they end up being bottle fed etc they will never survive in the wild ... so ends up more animals living in captivity.

With regard to people liking zoos so they can see the animals up close ... at what cost for the animals? There are so so many amazing programs where people can see these magnificent animals being filmed in the wild .. where they should be .. not taken from the native countries and put into a zoo - it’s a dreadful shame in 2018 people can’t buy the animals first.

Birdnuts

cocker5 wrote: »

My point on so called breeding programmes was most day they are breeding in order to protect species / re introduce into the wild but in reality animals bred in captivity cannot be re introduction.. their mothers who are usually also bred in captivity don’t have the wild instincts of their predecessors .. most don’t care for the young they end up being bottle fed etc they will never survive in the wild ... so ends up more animals living in captivity.

With regard to people liking zoos so they can see the animals up close ... at what cost for the animals? There are so so many amazing programs where people can see these magnificent animals being filmed in the wild .. where they should be .. not taken from the native countries and put into a zoo - it’s a dreadful shame in 2018 people can’t buy the animals first.

It depends on the Species - captive bred Scimitar Horned Oryx and Bald Ibis(which Dublin Zoo breed) have both been succesfully re-introduced to the Wild in Chad and Austria repectively in recent times

metaoblivia

Sheepdish1 wrote: »

But for some reason, I don't think this is what most zoos do, I would be of the opinion that most zoos are purely for human entertainment. Even if there are breeding programmes I can imagine even moving the animals to different locations must be incredibly stressful on them.

I don't have statistics on that one way or another. I know in the US, it's very beneficial for zoos to appear as though they are participating in animal conservation, but only 10% actually meet the accreditation standards set forth by the AZA. And that 10% includes SeaWorld, which has a long history of using animals for entertainment (and in fairness to them, a long history of research and conservation as well).

Sheepdish1

cocker5 wrote: »

My point on so called breeding programmes was most day they are breeding in order to protect species / re introduce into the wild but in reality animals bred in captivity cannot be re introduction.. their mothers who are usually also bred in captivity don’t have the wild instincts of their predecessors .. most don’t care for the young they end up being bottle fed etc they will never survive in the wild ... so ends up more animals living in captivity.

With regard to people liking zoos so they can see the animals up close ... at what cost for the animals? There are so so many amazing programs where people can see these magnificent animals being filmed in the wild .. where they should be .. not taken from the native countries and put into a zoo - it’s a dreadful shame in 2018 people can’t buy the animals first.

I often wonder will we look back at zoos the same way as we look at animals in circuses for example. What is the difference between sea life and zoos?
If animals were being reintroduced into wild I would see the positives but how can this happen from animals born and bred in captivity?

I understand this can happen with sea creatures eg sea horses are being bred and put back into wild but the amount of offspring is significantly higher than mammals so i feel there is a difference.

sumosi

This is an concern that I had for many years. I used to be extremely anti as found them to be nothing more then profitable businesses regardless of the impact this has on the actual animal welfare.
However as I have got older and our access to information a lot more accessible, my opinion has now changed. Sadly man can be extremely cruel to animals.
Someone wrote on here wolves are not meant for Zoos however there is a place in Canada where they are actually breed and used specifically for hunting purposes.
So my stance on this topic now is that if we lived in an ideal world - I would totally object to Zoo's, however sadly this is not the case and whilst the animal is encaged we can only hope that they are actually being looked after and protected.

.......

I am against them.

I am not against international efforts for breeding programs, but zoos do not need to be in existence for this.

I remember many years ago as a small child being hugely upset in Dublin Zoo as the animals were so depressed with such terrible facilities. Things have improved since then but fundamentally it is a prison for wild animals and it does not mimic a natural environment.