2018 Fare Dermination

L1011

Released without much PR:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Fares_Determination_2018_Final.pdf

DB fare bands converging to get them closer to the BusConnects 90 minute price, so 2.15->2.25 and 2.60->2.50. Monthly DB only ticket up by €7, annual by €70.

Luas fares all over the place for the same reason, monthly/annual Luas Only up 10%; off-peak fares removed. 10% seems quite sharp to me

IR Dublin fares also modified for the same reason; max Leap fare increased due to longer distances possible (only affects the forgetful). Monthly/annual Dublin area unaffected.

The all-modes Dublin area annual is going down despite two of the individual components going up!

I honestly don't understand BE fares enough to try analyse them as I never use them

Dravokivich

L1011 wrote: »

Released without much PR:

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Fares_Determination_2018_Final.pdf

DB fare bands converging to get them closer to the BusConnects 90 minute price, so 2.15->2.25 and 2.60->2.50. Monthly DB only ticket up by €7, annual by €70.

Luas fares all over the place for the same reason, monthly/annual Luas Only up 10%; off-peak fares removed. 10% seems quite sharp to me

IR Dublin fares also modified for the same reason; max Leap fare increased due to longer distances possible (only affects the forgetful). Monthly/annual Dublin area unaffected.

The all-modes Dublin area annual is going down despite two of the individual components going up!

I honestly don't understand BE fares enough to try analyse them as I never use them

And people who can't tag off...

L1011

You'll get that refunded, should it happen.

Only had it on Luas when all validators at a stop rebooted at once in a few thousand journeys but some smaller stations with only two validators and one on the other platform will be more prone to issues

Dravokivich

L1011 wrote: »

You'll get that refunded, should it happen.

Only had it on Luas when all validators at a stop rebooted at once in a few thousand journeys but some smaller stations with only two validators and one on the other platform will be more prone to issues

You have to request it. It's not automated because there is no way for Leap to know where you tried to tag off, when you couldn't. if it happens twice, you'll be paying 11 euro now, while waiting for however long the refund will take. There's no point on it being so high, if there's no fare close to it. Previously the difference between highest fare and the tag on amount was 15 cents. It's now going to be 60 cents.

thomasj

Unlimited travel on Dublin bus subsidised services has been pulled from the dodublin card meaning €35 for :

Airlink transfers
Hop hop off tour
Little museum and walking tour

Not sure about the slogan "best value travel card in Dublin "

Trampas

It annual short hop down €90

coylemj

The 90 minute fare sounds like great value if you frequently do back to back trips like bus+bus or bus+dart. Currently my second bus trip costs €1.15 with the 90 minute €1 discount, this will reduce the fare for the second leg to 10c thanks to the new 90 minute fare for €2.25.

Stevek101

I wonder will Airlink be removed from annual tax savers.

Van.Bosch

The aim is to move to a flat fare, surprised to see the lower two Dublin short hop DART fares move apart from one fare.

devnull

A few other things I've noticed

Dublin City Bus Services

• Introduction of a €1 flat fare for children, replacing the previous two fare system
• Nitelink Leap Fare cut to €4.50
• Removal of PSO journeys from DoDublin Commercial tickets.
• Re-enforcement of Visitor Leap as Visitor option of choice
• Proposed new €600 add-on for commuters who already have a BE/IR annual ticket for a service outside the Dublin area.

LUAS

• New Luas annual add-on fare of €600 for commuters who already have an annual ticket on Iarnród Éireann intercity services or Bus Éireann stage carriage services.
• Scrapping of off-peak fares
• Withdrawal of City Centre fare.

Irish Rail

• Dublin SHZ monthly and annual fare reducing by 5.8% in preparation for BusConnects
• Fare for multi – operator monthly and annual tickets for bus in Dublin, rail in the SHZ and Luas reducing by 6.0%
• Divide zone 1 in the SHZ to ensure short trips of about 4 km or less are charged at a short fare rate, while trips over 4 km are included in the 90-minute fare
• Current SHZ zone 1 Origins and Destinations (OD’s) split into zone 1 and new zone 2, zone 1 fares to drop by up to 6% while new zone 2 fares to increase by up to 17%, which affects a small number of commuters.
• SHZ fares in zone 3 and zone 4 to drop by up to 7.9% while zone 5 and zone 6 to increase by between 2.0% and 3.3%.
• Most intercity express single fares down by 5%
• Increase of up to 13.6% on student intercity ticket office fares in an effort to encourage students to purchase on line fares at lower prices to allow better management of train operations.
• New Dublin urban annual add-on fare of €600 for commuters who already have an annual ticket on Iarnród Éireann intercity services to allow travel on Dublin City bus or Luas services.

Bus Eireann City and Town Services

• Waterford City zone extended to include route 360 to Tramore.
• New 1-day (24 hour) student fare of €4.00 in Galway, Limerick and Waterford.
• New 1-day (24 hour), 7-day, monthly and annual Leap products for Outer Cork commuters
• City and Town Leap Fares up 7c and cash fares up 10c/

Bus Eireann / Go Ahead Kildare Stage Carriage

• Many monthly and annual fares dropping by up to 5.0% with a small number increasing by up to 1.4%. Most annual fares cheaper than they were in 2013
• First step taken in merging adult and child day return and ordinary return fares with day returns increasing by up to 3.0% and open returns dropping by up to 3.3%
• New Dublin urban annual add-on fare of €600 for commuters who already have an annual ticket on Bus Éireann Eastern Zone and Stage Carriage services to allow travel on Dublin City bus or Luas services

Route 139 - Naas to Blanchardstown

• Fares based on the Dublin City bus fares, will be adjusted to reflect the fares on Dublin City buses.
• The longer distance Leap fares of €3.00, €3.50, €4.30, €4.50 and €5.00 will remain at their current levels for 2019 as will their equivalent cash fares.
• 7-day rolling Leap product at a fare of €47.00, a monthly Leap product at a fare of €170.00 and an annual Leap product of €1,700.00 to be introduced.
• Introduction of €600 annual add-on ticket to be accepted on Dublin City bus and LUAS services.

Airlink, Tours and Expressway Services

• As the above services are commercial, they fall outside the scope of this review.

L1011

No indiciation if the cap-qualifying element (2.50) of Nitelink is changing with the price cut but as they state they are trying to converge its fare with X services, I would doubt it.

I currently have the Rail SHZ but really need to add Luas to it (changed employer and location during the year and bought the ticket out rather than cancel/restart) - even with the post-tax price difference increasing this year, ~€175 is better than the €480 or so I'm paying for Luas currently. But the all-mode cuts means the bus is just another ~€125 post-tax now which is one round trip a fortnight for me; which I easily do already and having it would actually encourage me to use it more.

That is obviously part of the intent of taxsaver tickets - I use trains far more on weekends for trips I would otherwise have driven and parked for much the same total cost already, with the bus added that'll increase further.

If they follow through with making all modes the same price as one mode when flat fares come in they really have to just convert everyones ticket over and possibly send them PR material informing them of same.

Irish Rail are going to see a significant reduction in fares income from these changes - is that being made up by the NTA?

kmart6

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Fares_Determination_2018_Final.pdf

LUAS Annual Ticket wrote:

Over the past number of years’, we moved towards a single monthly and annual ticket for all Luas services similar to that offered by Dublin City bus. During that process, the cost of the monthly and annual all zones ticket remained at the January 2013 price. The first increase in those tickets for four years was applied in December 2016.

Yes, but you've now increased it 3 fcuking years in a row! :mad:

bk

devnull wrote: »

Introduction of a €1 flat fare for children, replacing the previous two fare system

At last, this one was just silly, how little difference there was between the two fares. Now children will be able to just use the right hand validator without worrying about interacting with the driver. Roll on the same happening for adults.

Some more juicy quotes from the report:

The system chosen is a two fare system. There will be one fare for a short journey (similar to the current Dublin city bus fare for 1 to 3 stages) and a higher fare which will allow for 90 minutes of travel on bus, Luas, DART and
Iarnród Éireann SHZ services in zones 1 to 4.

In this determination, we are adjusting the Dublin City bus fares towards the two fare system. However, it will take at least one other determination in 2019 before we finally have the two fare system in place.

So it sounds like we will see the merger of the Stage 4 to 13 and over 13 stages fares next year and thus the elimination of the need to interact with the driver for most passengers next year. Just the 1.50/1.55 short distance passengers will stick interact with the driver. Not ideal, but better then the current.

Also people might miss this, but the Irish Rail, Short Hope Zone, Zone 1 is becoming much smaller.

So some predictions based on the new fares and where they seem to be heading.

Short distance fare across Bus, Luas, DART: 1.60 or 1.65

90 minute fare across Bus, Luas, DART: 2.30 or 2.35

n!ghtmancometh

Any idea the increase of DB annual taxsaver?

hmmm

Other than the fact that the middle class commuter is an easy target, is there any justification for the massive jump in annual ticket prices?

coylemj

bk wrote: »

90 minute fare across Bus, Luas, DART: 2.30 or 2.35

I was a big user of the old Dublin Bus Travel90 ticket and IIRC it cost more than the proposed €2.30 or €2.35 fare which will cover 90 minutes multimode travel.

The current €1 discount for additional journeys within 90 minutes still involves an increment when you switch vehicles or operators whereas with the Travel90 (limited to DB), you could hop on/hop off as often as you pleased. My record was a single journey across the city involving four buses on one validation.

bk

hmmm wrote: »

Other than the fact that the middle class commuter is an easy target, is there any justification for the massive jump in annual ticket prices?

4.5% (for Dublin City Buses) is massive?!

And a 6.0% reduction in the combined Bus/Luas/Dart monthly and annual tickets.

It is obvious where they are going with this. They will eventually get rid of the separate bus/luas/dart tickets and have an all in one ticket eventually, like the 90 minute Leap ticket.

bk

coylemj wrote: »

I was a big user of the old Dublin Bus Travel90 ticket and IIRC it cost more than the proposed €2.30 or €2.35 fare which will cover 90 minutes multimode travel.

That is true, though the difference is that the original T90 was an optional ticket, you only bought it if you needed it, while this new 90 minute ticket will apply to everyone travelling more the 4 stages, so pretty much most people.

It will also apply to an awful lot of people who won't directly benefit from it. People like me who only need to get one bus into town for €2.15, I'd be paying an extra 20cent for no direct benefit.

Now, I don't mind, as I see the big picture, speed up dwell times and journey times by being able to use the right hand validator, making public transport easier to use and less confusing, making it easier to jump between other buses, etc. the odd time I need too.

But I can absolutely see most of the people who live in my area not seeing that and scoffing at a 20c increase to them. Which BTW is on top of about 20c of increases over the last 5 years.

Also keep in mind, that given that almost everyone will be paying this fare and most will still be taking just one bus, it makes it easier to have a cheaper 90 minute fare then the old T90

Sure there will be the odd outlier like yourself taking 4 buses in one go, but it will be easily balanced out by most people just taking one.

Though it could be 2.40 too, but I don't see it being more then that.

caviardreams

Disappointed to see the new Zone 1 and Zone 2 SHZ split - my old zone one trip is now zone 2 - one 1 is pretty much three stops now

mydiscworld

n!ghtmancometh wrote: »

Any idea the increase of DB annual taxsaver?

Page 61

Up 60 from 1,340 to 1,400 (+4.5%)

https://www.nationaltransport.ie/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/Fares_Determination_2018_Final-1.pdf

howiya

Do the powers that be ever think that if they reduce the cost of public transport they may achieve their goal of increasing usage?

€1.90 to travel wherever you want to go in one journey on the Paris metro. €1.90 to travel across multiple modes within an hour in Lyon. €2.25 to travel 13 stages on a bus in Dublin.

€2 flat fare for Leap. Increase subsidy to DB. And maybe reduce the carbon fines we are going to be paying the EU from 2020.

coylemj

howiya wrote: »

Do the powers that be ever think that if they reduce the cost of public transport they may achieve their goal of increasing usage?

The additional passenger traffic generated by lowering fares would not necessarily compensate for the lower revenue you will get from the cohort of passengers who have to travel to work and college by bus regardless of the fare.

howiya

coylemj wrote: »

The additional passenger traffic generated by lowering fares would not necessarily compensate for the lower revenue you will get from the cohort of passengers who have to travel to work and college by bus regardless of the fare.

That's why you would increase the subsidy as I mentioned. Its not uncommon for governments to fund policy goals.

L1011

howiya wrote: »

That's why you would increase the subsidy as I mentioned. Its not uncommon for governments to fund policy goals.

The state decided to provide substantial indirect subsidy via taxation measures with Taxsaver which is rarely considered as part of the subsidy payments as the full amount appears as fare revenue

When it is included as it should be the subsidy figures are nowhere near as low as often claimed

devnull

L1011 wrote: »

The state decided to provide substantial indirect subsidy via taxation measures with Taxsaver which is rarely considered as part of the subsidy payments as the full amount appears as fare revenue

When it is included as it should be the subsidy figures are nowhere near as low as often claimed

Plus also the provision of assets (vehicles) that prior to 2012, the company had to pay for. out of it's own pot.

XPS_Zero

It really is time for them to promote the Leap Visitor card in BusAras, Connoly, Heuston, Tara, Pearse etc



At the moment IE staff sell tourists the Irish rail daily unlimited or weekly unlimited tickets and it's a flagrant rip off, it's so wrong I don't know where to start. I can assume they do know about Leap Visitor so maybe they are told by IE senior staff to do this?


Were in an era of integration now, that info desk at Connoly, when a tourist asks, should have a stack of LVs there they can hand to the person, with a big poster on their glass window saying "BUY THE LEAP VISITOR CARD AND SAVE A FORTUNE". Don't let IE do what DB tried (thankfully unsuccessfully) to do citing their "brand" as being more important.


It's in the IE laws that they'll try to sell you the best ticket for your journey, maybe they could actually try doing that?

howiya

L1011 wrote: »

The state decided to provide substantial indirect subsidy via taxation measures with Taxsaver which is rarely considered as part of the subsidy payments as the full amount appears as fare revenue

When it is included as it should be the subsidy figures are nowhere near as low as often claimed

Its not a comment on how high/low the current subsidy is. My suggestion is that subsidy could be increased to compensate operators for a decrease in fare revenue if we lower ticket prices to encourage increased usage.

Instead they have decided that passengers travelling 4-13 stages will subsidise the journey of those travelling over 13 stages.

coylemj

howiya wrote: »

Instead they have decided that passengers travelling 4-13 stages will subsidise the journey of those travelling over 13 stages.

You can nitpick along those lines ad nauseum..... the people who travel 4 stages are subsidising people who go 5 stages.

bk

howiya wrote: »

Its not a comment on how high/low the current subsidy is. My suggestion is that subsidy could be increased to compensate operators for a decrease in fare revenue if we lower ticket prices to encourage increased usage.

Where would you put increased usage?

The buses are already massively overcrowded. An increased subsidy would only balance out for the loss in ticket revenue.

So you would also have to put in a massive capital investment to buy lots more buses and depots and employ lots more drivers and then increase the subsidy even further to meet the now increased operating cost, in order to meet the demand.

And of course you then run into the problem of the congestion in the city center and lack of bus stop space. There already isn't enough space for the buses we have, never mind lots more.

It is a nice idea, but doesn't make sense when the problem you are currently facing is overcrowding.

We need to do BusConnects first, including the infrastructure side. Then you could maybe look at ticket prices, but it doesn't make sense given the current situation.

coylemj wrote: »

You can nitpick along those lines ad nauseum..... the people who travel 4 stages are subsidising people who go 5 stages.

That is why the Amsterdam model has long been my preferred solution. You pay per km. But anything is better then the current mess.

XPS_Zero

coylemj wrote: »

You can nitpick along those lines ad nauseum..... the people who travel 4 stages are subsidising people who go 5 stages.

Those of us working now are paying for the pensions (via our PRSI and USC), disability and Jobseekers of people not working, and others will replace us to pay for us.


You're paying for people to have free college tuition, you are paying (via central taxation, not fares contrary to popular understanding) for people to have free travel.


Other people paid for you to go to school etc


We all subsidize each other.

XPS_Zero

bk wrote: »

Where would you put increased usage?

The buses are already massively overcrowded. An increased subsidy would only balance out for the loss in ticket revenue.

So you would also have to put in a massive capital investment to buy lots more buses and depots and employ lots more drivers and then increase the subsidy even further to meet the now increased operating cost, in order to meet the demand.

And of course you then run into the problem of the congestion in the city center and lack of bus stop space. There already isn't enough space for the buses we have, never mind lots more.

It is a nice idea, but doesn't make sense when the problem you are currently facing is overcrowding.

We need to do BusConnects first, including the infrastructure side. Then you could maybe look at ticket prices, but it doesn't make sense given the current situation.



That is why the Amsterdam model has long been my preferred solution. You pay per km. But anything is better then the current mess.

Given that climate change report, that massive capital investment in PT may become a matter of avoiding human extinction down the road. We need a major shift in priorities, but don't worry...like clockwork people will still be demanding their tax cuts and have no perspective or long term thinking at all...:o