Landlord Selling

wayne25

I received information today that after 15 months our landlord is selling the apartment and have to get out by Feb 1st 2019.

We recently received an email back in June from the estate agents asking did we want to let for another year and we communicated back to say yes.

We also received a rent increase demand by 60e last month again which we agreed.

A solicitor friend did say that as we agreed via email to the estate agents "we were happy to stay another 12 months and didn't physically resign the lease, that would make it hard to stay the extra 7 months or argue to being evicted.

This is the second time in two different apartments in the last 2 years different landlords have wanted to "sell" up and it is absolutely infuriating in the stress and upheaval it causes.

Once you get that dreaded notice "you're gone in 3 months" it feels no longer like a "home" and really you couldn't be bothered with the place.

Can we give 4 weeks notice at anytime to leave the dwelling and not be penalised if the 3 months notice is binding in having to go by February 1st?

If anyone has any further information or experience please let me know.

Thank You.

Cuddlesworth

Your only required to give 42 days, but if the landlord wants you out, then you should be able to come to a agreement about looking for accommodation in this market and leaving at short notice.

dennyk

Unfortunately if you didn't actually sign a new fixed term lease with a specific end date, you are simply under a Part 4 tenancy now, and your landlord can end the tenancy to sell the property. As long as the notice is correct and the notice period is sufficient given your length of tenancy (which it is if you've only been there 15 months; only 42 days notice from the landlord is required, so he has provided much more than the minimum requirement), then it is valid and you will need to vacate.

As Cuddlesworth mentioned, you must also technically give 42 days notice to end the tenancy yourself, and you would be responsible for rent during that period even if you physically vacate beforehand, but you and the landlord can agree on a shorter notice period if both parties desire it. The landlord will likely be happy enough that you are vacating without any trouble and would probably agree to a shorter notice period if you do manage to find a property you can move into quickly; it's a far better outcome for them than having you overhold and disrupt a potential sale, and only a foolish landlord would push back on that request for the sake of squeezing a few extra weeks' rent out of a departing tenant and risk turning an amicable departure into a hostile one. Just have a chat with your landlord and ask them.

meijin

wayne25 wrote: »

I received information today that after 15 months our landlord is selling the apartment and have to get out by Feb 1st 2019.

We recently received an email back in June from the estate agents asking did we want to let for another year and we communicated back to say yes.

you could argue that you've committed to further 12 months fixed term by email if you really want to stay, but it gives you only few more months anyway.

wayne25 wrote: »

This is the second time in two different apartments in the last 2 years different landlords have wanted to "sell" up and it is absolutely infuriating in the stress and upheaval it causes.

do you know if the previous place actually sold, or just re-let at higher price?

wayne25

meijin wrote: »

you could argue that you've committed to further 12 months fixed term by email if you really want to stay, but it gives you only few more months anyway.



do you know if the previous place actually sold, or just re-let at higher price?

Thanks everyone for the input. Previous place was sold and then the new owner re let the place out.

I know its only 5 months in the difference if we do argue the extension but it gives more time and less stress.

Feel as nothing was physically signed with lease extension that nothing can be done. Silly oversight really.

handlemaster

Theres been alot about landlords selling up not been true. I think the ordinary tenant doesnt realise its not the cash cow pertrayed by the media

Claw Hammer

There is nothing to stop you opening a dispute with the RTB claiming that the landlord is attempting to terminate a fixed term lease. Once you open a dispute the Tenancy continues. You can keep going through an appeal if necessary. You should be easily able to get the full balance of your 12 months.

wayne25

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is nothing to stop you opening a dispute with the RTB claiming that the landlord is attempting to terminate a fixed term lease. Once you open a dispute the Tenancy continues. You can keep going through an appeal if necessary. You should be easily able to get the full balance of your 12 months.

I will do that and seek further advice. In my book a 12 month renewal in July gone is a 12 month renewal agreed in good faith with our estate agent till July 2019.

Thanks again everyone.

wayne25

wayne25 wrote: »

I will do that and seek further advice. In my book a 12 month renewal in July gone is a 12 month renewal agreed in good faith with our estate agent till July 2019.

Thanks again everyone.

Good luck getting a reference from your LL if you try that stunt and without a reference you haven’t a hope of getting another rental especially if it goes fully through the RTB and your name is on the website for any future LL to see.

You are much better off to just start looking straight away and agree with your LL that if you can find somewhere that you will be allowed move out fairly quickly without any hassle.

Misguided1

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is nothing to stop you opening a dispute with the RTB claiming that the landlord is attempting to terminate a fixed term lease. Once you open a dispute the Tenancy continues. You can keep going through an appeal if necessary. You should be easily able to get the full balance of your 12 months.

Is it any wonder landlords are trying to get out of the market:rolleyes:

dudara

wayne25 wrote: »

I will do that and seek further advice. In my book a 12 month renewal in July gone is a 12 month renewal agreed in good faith with our estate agent till July 2019.

Thanks again everyone.

You unfortunately didn’t sign a lease, so you’re covered by Part IV. Landlords can terminate Part IV tenancies on several basis, as you know. I wouldn’t think it matters that you agreed to 12 months.

The only thing I can think of is did you have a lease from the original 12 months? If so, what did that say about termination or break clauses? There could be argument to be made that the terms of the first lease could be continued.

Edgware

Its a business although not necessarily treated the same as other businesses. However if you manage it right there is money to be made. No more than any other business if your income doesn't reward your efforts move out and move on but don't expect any sympathy

Nomis21

Coleman Polite Quota wrote:

Good luck getting a reference from your LL if you try that stunt and without a reference you haven’t a hope of getting another rental especially if it goes fully through the RTB and your name is on the website for any future LL to see.

Coleman Polite Quota wrote:

Good luck getting a reference from your LL if you try that stunt and without a reference you haven’t a hope of getting another rental especially if it goes fully through the RTB and your name is on the website for any future LL to see.

All the Lanlords on here harping on about having no reference from present Landlord if you upset him in any way. In 40 years of renting numerous properties I have NEVER been asked by ANY Landlord or agency for a landlord reference. They were only interested in my employment details which they only sometimes checked.

Wabbit Ears

same, rented for years, moved a lot, never once was asked for a reference.

Edgware

Certainly when dealing with landlords direct rather than an estate agent references arent that important. The reference isnt worth the paper its written. In work how many times have we given good references just to get rid of some waster. The same applies with bad tenants.
Most landlords are able to size up people and its the amateur landlord that cant read between the lines and cant spot a chancer that gets caught out.

In the U.K. it is different and there are companies who's job it is to check out references

jimwallace197

Edgware wrote: »

Certainly when dealing with landlords direct rather than an estate agent references arent that important. The reference isnt worth the paper its written. In work how many times have we given good references just to get rid of some waster. The same applies with bad tenants.
Most landlords are able to size up people and its the amateur landlord that cant read between the lines and cant spot a chancer that gets caught out.

In the U.K. it is different and there are companies who's job it is to check out references

Yes, the UK agents employ a credit check company who not only checks with your former landlords but also your ability to pay the rent.

In relation to the references, I would have to disagree, they are being continually checked now & a letter alone would not suffice, often a tenant is required to provide a landlord telephone number also and if there is a hint of anything dodgy going on, they are immediately disregarded.

Why? Simply because there is huge competition for any rental properties in urban areas now and the legislation concerning removing a troublesome tenant
is so restrictive to landlords that checking these references authenticity has never been more important & necessary.

Of course, there are always going to be a few small time landlords who dont carry out due deligence but these are becoming fewer and fewer especially since the publication of numerous articles mentioning the huge fines the PRTB are dishing out for landlords who are not following proper procedure. Most LL's are now aware of the huge risks involved in getting in the wrong type of tenant and why would they take the risk when there is such competition for properties.

If you think a good reference from your previous landlord doesnt matter, you are seriously mistaken especially in todays market

omb0wyn5ehpij9

Everlee Millions Queue wrote: »

Good luck getting a reference from your LL if you try that stunt and without a reference you haven’t a hope of getting another rental especially if it goes fully through the RTB and your name is on the website for any future LL to see.

You are much better off to just start looking straight away and agree with your LL that if you can find somewhere that you will be allowed move out fairly quickly without any hassle.

My girlfriend took a case against a previous landlord, and won and was awarded damages. Her name is on the RTB website and she has moved twice since then, and not had an issue

wayne25

Edgware wrote: »

Its a business although not necessarily treated the same as other businesses. However if you manage it right there is money to be made. No more than any other business if your income doesn't reward your efforts move out and move on but don't expect any sympathy

Sympathy is not wanted, actual advice was? Can't you read my first post? It's the willy nilly attitude of landlords turfing hundreds of people out every month into homelessness in most cases, but hey, that's "business" Edgware, you in your little lovely bubble!
Slainte!

Samuel T. Cogley

Edgware wrote: »

Its a business although not necessarily treated the same as other businesses. However if you manage it right there is money to be made. No more than any other business if your income doesn't reward your efforts move out and move on but don't expect any sympathy

Seems that's exactly what the OP's LL is doing.

jimwallace197

wayne25 wrote: »

Sympathy is not wanted, actual advice was? Can't you read my first post? It's the willy nilly attitude of landlords turfing hundreds of people out every month into homelessness in most cases, but hey, that's "business" Edgware, you in your little lovely bubble!
Slainte!

Thats a load of nonsense to be fair, anytime a landlord seeks to maximise their investment after more than likely making up the shortfall from low rents due to the property crash over the last few years, the line about homelessness is peddled out.

Plenty of empty houses in the country for people who are supposedly homeless to live in, just not in their desired location.

Not the fault of the landlords either that Fine Gael decided not to build any social housing over the last few years.

wayne25

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Thats a load of nonsense to be fair, anytime a landlord seeks to maximise their investment after more than likely making up the shortfall from low rents due to the property crash over the last few years, the line about homelessness is peddled out.

Plenty of empty houses in the country for people who are supposedly homeless to live in, just not in their desired location.

Not the fault of the landlords either that Fine Gael decided not to build any social housing over the last few years.

Government fully to blame? Landlords not? no? Right so.

Desired location? Yes. That is ESSENTIAL to families and couples who've their employment, family, schools & gyms in the area.

Tell you one thing, the sooner it's compulsory for LLs and estate agents in fully assisting people to new accommodation before they have to leave the better. Nothing found? Folk stay put when their leases are terminated by LLs at an early stage.

A lease when it's renewed by 12 months, needs to be just that. 12 months.
Not 4, 6 or 8 months, the full term, regardless of the "need" to sell the property.

jimwallace197

wayne25 wrote: »

Government fully to blame? Landlords not? no? Right so.

Desired location? Yes. That is ESSENTIAL to families and couples who've their employment, family, schools & gyms in the area.

Tell you one thing, the sooner it's compulsory for LLs and estate agents in fully assisting people to new accommodation before they have to leave the better. Nothing found? Folk stay put when their leases are terminated by LLs at an early stage.

A lease when it's renewed by 12 months, needs to be just that. 12 months.
Not 4, 6 or 8 months, the full term, regardless of the "need" to sell the property.

Yes, of course, the landlords and agents should help you fully because you cant find a place by yourself to rent for the current market rate.

History has shown us that any government intervention in the property market always has long negative impacts. Rent controls in NY being a good example.

How about taking some responsibility, removing the chip from your sholder and finding somewhere affordable to rent.

Fol20

Everlee Millions Queue wrote: »

Good luck getting a reference from your LL if you try that stunt and without a reference you haven’t a hope of getting another rental especially if it goes fully through the RTB and your name is on the website for any future LL to see.

You are much better off to just start looking straight away and agree with your LL that if you can find somewhere that you will be allowed move out fairly quickly without any hassle.

As others have said. You need to be careful especially if it’s a legitimate eviction.normally leases would need to be signed by the ll or estate agent acting on their behalf.
Any time I get new tenants I search their name on the RTB database for any dispute, no matter what the issue is, if I see your name on the RTB, I will not be taking you in.

Samuel T. Cogley

TBH any decent 12 month lease would have had a break clause in it anyway.

wayne25

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Yes, of course, the landlords and agents should help you fully because you cant find a place by yourself to rent for the current market rate.

History has shown us that any government intervention in the property market always has long negative impacts. Rent controls in NY being a good example.

How about taking some responsibility, removing the chip from your sholder and finding somewhere affordable to rent.

This not an affordability issue at all. It's the lack of giving a damn with turfin good decent tenants out without an after thought of the consequences and stress caused to people.

And I can tell you there is no chip, I have no issue with the sale as such, I've issue with not being allowed to continue a lease that was to last to July 2019 and only asked to be continued in late June along with a rent increase which we'd no issue.

Fol20

wayne25 wrote: »

Government fully to blame? Landlords not? no? Right so.

Desired location? Yes. That is ESSENTIAL to families and couples who've their employment, family, schools & gyms in the area.

Tell you one thing, the sooner it's compulsory for LLs and estate agents in fully assisting people to new accommodation before they have to leave the better. Nothing found? Folk stay put when their leases are terminated by LLs at an early stage.

A lease when it's renewed by 12 months, needs to be just that. 12 months.
Not 4, 6 or 8 months, the full term, regardless of the "need" to sell the property.

Why is it up to the landlord to find YOU accommodation. That’s like saying you hand in your notice in work, if the you or the company can’t find a replacement. You need to stay out until we do get the right talent.

wayne25

Samuel T. Cogley wrote: »

TBH any decent 12 month lease would have had a break clause in it anyway.

For no rent late rent or damage. Absolutely. To sell a place should not disrupt an agreed tenancy with 8 months still left. Sell it yes no problem but have some decency until lease expires.

Samuel T. Cogley

It's just business Wayne I'm afraid. The rent increase is a non-issue the LL is forced to do that by the current legislation or risk getting stuck below market rates and devaluing the property. Plenty of people are 'accidental LL's' and will get out as soon as equity allows. That's happening a lot at the moment. If you want to blame someone blame the people that are making it so high risk to remain a LL.

Samuel T. Cogley

wayne25 wrote: »

For no rent late rent or damage. Absolutely. To sell a place should not disrupt an agreed tenancy with 8 months still left.

For the reasons allowed under Part IV unless it was drafted by a rank amatuer.

wayne25

Fol20 wrote: »

Why is it up to the landlord to find YOU accommodation. That’s like saying you hand in your notice in work, if the you or the company can’t find a replacement. You need to stay out until we do get the right talent.

I handed in no notice. It was issued to me so your comparison is silly. My point is again, that a lease should be the full term. 8 months remained on mine and that should be the case in selling up in July 19. and having some sort of respect to people who've looked after and paid rent timely, we're talking an extra 5 months here.

Pkiernan

Funny how the OP is annoyed at a landlord who is following the exact letter of the law, and yet wants to open a frivolous RTB complaint to delay the lawful termination of tenancy; and to add insult wants to give just 4 weeks notice instead of the legally required 42 days.

Little bit hypocritical.

wayne25

Pkiernan wrote: »

Funny how the OP is annoyed at a landlord who is following the exact letter of the law, and yet wants to open a frivolous RTB complaint to delay the lawful termination of tenancy; and to add insult wants to give just 4 weeks notice instead of the legally required 42 days.

Little bit hypocritical.

I've filed nothing merely asked for advice.
If we're being legally evicted at a drop of a hat to leave, 4 or 5 or 6 weeks early is in my rights to do so. 5 months is taken lawfully off me yet if I wanna go at 4 weeks notice I'm a criminal?

Samuel T. Cogley

No, have to agree there OP, a decent LL should allow you to leave as soon as you find a place.

Fol20

wayne25 wrote: »

I handed in no notice. It was issued to me so your comparison is silly. My point is again, that a lease should be the full term. 8 months remained on mine and that should be the case in selling up in July 19. and having some sort of respect to people who've looked after and paid rent timely, we're talking an extra 5 months here.

Leases don’t mean much in Ireland. They should but they don’t. I would like it if once you sign a contract your locked in for the term and tenants are liable for the entire term that can be actually enforceable. If a tenant signs a contract and leaves after 1 month. Ll have to let the place as soon as possible to mitigate losses and refund the deposit minus fees for lost rent. You would think at a minimum they loose the deposit but nope. It’s not how it works here.

runawaybishop

wayne25 wrote: »

I handed in no notice. It was issued to me so your comparison is silly. My point is again, that a lease should be the full term. 8 months remained on mine and that should be the case in selling up in July 19. and having some sort of respect to people who've looked after and paid rent timely, we're talking an extra 5 months here.

But as far as the LL is concerned you don't have a lease. Get on to the agency.

Also paying your rent on time isn't something that should be considered special.

wayne25

runawaybishop wrote: »

But as far as the LL is concerned you don't have a lease. Get on to the agency.

Also paying your rent on time isn't something that should be considered special.

Not at all my POINT is there's many that mess lls around with rent so thats all I meant by that point. And many also leave places in a jock. Although the positive is I'll be 6.5k up leaving in Feb. Outta the renting madness.

handlemaster

wayne25 wrote: »

jimwallace197 wrote: »

Yes, of course, the landlords and agents should help you fully because you cant find a place by yourself to rent for the current market rate.

History has shown us that any government intervention in the property market always has long negative impacts. Rent controls in NY being a good example.

How about taking some responsibility, removing the chip from your sholder and finding somewhere affordable to rent.

This not an affordability issue at all. It's the lack of giving a damn with turfin good decent tenants out without an after thought of the consequences and stress caused to people.

And I can tell you there is no chip, I have no issue with the sale as such, I've issue with not being allowed to continue a lease that was to last to July 2019 and only asked to be continued in late June along with a rent increase which we'd no issue.

How many tenants have left a contract Early and paid nothing ?

Sheep Shagger

Claw Hammer wrote: »

There is nothing to stop you opening a dispute with the RTB claiming that the landlord is attempting to terminate a fixed term lease. Once you open a dispute the Tenancy continues. You can keep going through an appeal if necessary. You should be easily able to get the full balance of your 12 months.

This is why so many landlords are getting out of being a LL it really isn't worth the hassle. It's his house, he wants to sell and has given you more than the statutory notice. Put yourself in his shoes.

The_Conductor

Wayne- unless you sign a new lease- your tenancy is governed under the provisions of a Part IV tenancy- under the Residential Tenancies Act.
It actually has a lot of rights associated with it- such as the aforementioned notice periods etc.

In this instance- as the landlord has given you ample notice (signfiicantly longer notice than they are required to do so)- I honestly can't see how/why they wouldn't agree to meet you half way- if you decided you wanted to move out in advance of your required 42 days notice. While it is a business- most people, tenants and landlords, are human- and will try to find common ground with one another.

It sounds, from what you describe, as if you had a 1 year lease. The lease elapsed. The landlord increased the rent by 4% (or less)- as per the regulation- and rather than sign a new lease- you sent an e-mail to the managing agent saying you'd be happy to stay another year. Well, you're on a Part IV tenancy- not a subsequent fixed term lease- unless you sign a formal fixed term lease- your tenancy moves to Part IV provisions- regardless of what was in the original fixed term lease.

I fully get- you don't want to move- none of us do- but throwing a frivolous suit into the RTB just to frustrate the notice (which was extremely generous notice)- isn't going to achieve anything.

The landlord went the extra mile- giving you such long notice- they tried to be as accommodating as possible.
The landlord cannot sell the unit with a sitting tenant- as its impossible for any prospective buyer to get a mortgage on a rental unit- without vacant possession (because of tenants throwing frivolous suits around the place- not dissimilar to yours).

There are plenty of instances where landlords are complete and utter shysters who don't know their arse from their elbow- and try to get away with doing all manner of things that are not allowable under the Act. There are also plenty of instances where tenants abuse the legislative and regulatory environment to try and frustrate a landlords rights under both property law and the Residential Tenancy Act. Throwing a strop because you don't want to move- and lobbing in vexatious cases and claims to the RTB- belongs to the latter category.

It is not fair or reasonable behaviour to abuse the protections afforded to tenants- to make a vexatious case against your landlord. What you are proposing to do- can only be described as vexatious in nature.

As you have already said you are seeking legal advice elsewhere- and have been talking to a solicitor friend of yours- we cannot allow this discussion continue any further.

I hope it works out for you.

Thread closed.