Old cars: tell us something we don't know....

galwaytt

spotted this today, something we all knew anyway: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/old-cars-charged-more-by-insurers-as-nct-ignored-875007.html

NUTLEY BOY

galwaytt wrote: »

spotted this today, something we all knew anyway: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/old-cars-charged-more-by-insurers-as-nct-ignored-875007.html

This irritates me.

Motor insurance is required by law so it just should not be so easy for motor insurers to do - or not do - what they like. Against that, insurers have to operate a business and that is understood.

I am not sure that I have ever heard a proper justification for the practice of refusing cover on an old vehicle by virtue of it's age alone if it has a current NCT certificate. There was some guff about old bangers being used in staged crashes but has anybody seen the evidence to stand this up or has it disappeared in the fog of "it is our general experience".......

I would have thought that proper underwriting - as in correct assessment of the risk - might help to eliminate dodgy cars proposed for insurance.

There is something of a contradiction in refusing cover for an old car if it holds a current NCT certificate. That is the act of an insurance underwriter overriding the judgement of an authorised body (NCT) that has actually tested and verified that the vehicle meets certain standards. Alternative inferences are either that the standards required by insurers are higher than those indicated by a valid NCT certificate or that the NCT standards are lower than those required by insurance underwriters.

As far as an NCT certificate goes I understand that it is not a certificate of roadworthiness but rather a statement confirming that vehicle met certain standards on the day of the test.

I am aware of the existence of the Declined Cases Agreement whereby an insurer can be forced to offer a quote. However, I do not know if this works realistically. Would the recipient of such a quote get a truly competitive offer or a "go away we really don't want to touch you" astronomical quote.

It is no wonder that some people decide to go fully comprehensive with the MIBI :rolleyes:.

Maybe the insurance bods need to attend a few more Dail committees to try and explain it all to us as we are obviously idiots who just don't get it.

P.S. I see that if your car survives for 30 years plus the NCT guys only want to see it every second year thereafter...

galwaytt

Wait til you see this then............having to insure cars that are NOT on the road ???

https://www.independent.ie/life/motoring/car-news/dorethea-dowling-why-laid-up-and-out-of-use-option-may-have-become-a-thing-of-the-past-37401160.html

Harry Palmr

A change in the law will fix this and it's a technical matter so won't take much doing.

Eggs For Dinner

This has been done to death, but here goes

No insurer has said they do not quote older cars with NCTs because they are unsafe vehicles
Insurers will tell you that older cars (especially recently purchased) are involved in a higher proportion of expensive injury claims
Insurers will continue to renew policies for existing customers at reasonable rates on older cars, where the claims history is good
Older cars are often fronted for use by young drivers
Older bangers are often insured by people to abuse the driving of other cars extension by driving a higher rated vehicle
The NCT only certifies the condition of the vehicle and takes no account of the user

As I have often said, if an insurance company thought they could make money by targeting a sector like older cars, they would be all over it like a rash. They obviously can't. It's called cherry picking. They want the good stuff, not the loss making areas.

wexie

galwaytt wrote: »

Wait til you see this then............having to insure cars that are NOT on the road ???

How could that possibly ever be enforced?

Eggs For Dinner

wexie wrote: »

How could that possibly ever be enforced?

Hardly any of our motoring legislation is actually detected and enforced. That, IMO, is the biggest factor in the high claims costs we have, which ultimately leads to high insurance

CiniO

wexie wrote: »

How could that possibly ever be enforced?

Same as it is in most of other EU countries.

In Poland f.e. if you're vehicle owner then its details are in central database, and if it's shown on a database that you don't have current insurance on your car, you get the fine in post. Fines are multiple times the cost of annual policy, so definitely not worth trying.

galwaytt

CiniO wrote: »

Same as it is in most of other EU countries.

In Poland f.e. if you're vehicle owner then its details are in central database, and if it's shown on a database that you don't have current insurance on your car, you get the fine in post. Fines are multiple times the cost of annual policy, so definitely not worth trying.

But why insure something that's not in use ? What's the point?

CiniO

galwaytt wrote: »

But why insure something that's not in use ? What's the point?

Logically looking at it, there's no point.

But system which I described above which works in Poland gives no more than 0.5% of cars on the road being uninsured.
In Ireland where everyone is free to buy and cancel policy anytime they wish, this factor of insured cars on the road is closed to 6% which is a massive difference.
So maybe while system is illogical, it works.

dr.fuzzenstein

OK, I can only speak for the Germany system, but I do find it much better to deal with. It starts with registering your car, you will have to show you have insurance, TÜV and you pay tax at the same time or fill out a direct debit mandate for same.
If you don't want to use your car, you de-register it, to do that you need to get yourself down to the local authority and bring the number plates with you, so they can scrape the stickers off.
When you de-register your car, your tax and insurance is also canceled. If you are caught with an unregistered and uninsured car, the driver is personally liable for the damage. There will be a very steep fine, points, ban and if anyone got injured, incarcaration.
Since everything is linked up, it means that to register your car, it MUST be insured. If you don't want to pay insurance, you MUST de-register it.
It's so simple and cuts down on so much fcukery.
End result:
In the WHOLE of Germany, there are 6000 uninsured cars.
https://www.focus.de/finanzen/news/wirtschaftsticker/unternehmen-nirgends-fahren-weniger-unversicherte-autos-als-in-deutschland_id_8363497.html
In Ireland it's, lemme check, no that can't be right, WTF, are you sh*tting me?!
150000!!!
What TF are the Gards actually doing?
Jesus. And you wonder why insurance is fcuked up?! Alongside €20k payouts for scratches and owies, you actually think it's a problem with the insurance companies?
https://www.irishexaminer.com/ireland/claims-related-to-uninsured-drivers-jump-to-2758-467025.html

When you think about it, the Irish system where insurance, tax and registration are completely unconnected to each other, is insanity. The Gards don't seem t be able to catch even a cold.
I checked these figures several times, I still can't believe it, that is insanity!
I think it would be better to abandon car insurance altogether in Ireland, and have everyone just pay a few hundred quid into MIBI.

Eggs For Dinner

dr.fuzzenstein wrote:

I think it would be better to abandon car insurance altogether in Ireland, and have everyone just pay a few hundred quid into MIBI.

I agree with everything you said except this part. What makes you think "a few hundred quid in to the MIBI" would cover the cost of the ridiculous awards here? If it was that simple, it would have been done by now

dr.fuzzenstein

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

I agree with everything you said except this part. What makes you think "a few hundred quid in to the MIBI" would cover the cost of the ridiculous awards here? If it was that simple, it would have been done by now

That point was not entirely serious. Awards should be brought into line with the rest of Europe. You could half them and they would still be generous.

Eggs For Dinner

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

That point was not entirely serious. Awards should be brought into line with the rest of Europe. You could half them and they would still be generous.

The more I look at other jurisdictions, the more I'm convinced that we need a system here where detection of breaches of the RTA are detected and quickly dealt with on the roadside. At the moment, there is very little chance of a speeding, uninsured, drunk driver, with a defective vehicle getting caught. Even when he/she is, it's a cumbersome system of producing documents within X days, waiting for a summons to some far flung court appearance.

dr.fuzzenstein

Eggs For Dinner wrote: »

The more I look at other jurisdictions, the more I'm convinced that we need a system here where detection of breaches of the RTA are detected and quickly dealt with on the roadside. At the moment, there is very little chance of a speeding, uninsured, drunk driver, with a defective vehicle getting caught. Even when he/she is, it's a cumbersome system of producing documents within X days, waiting for a summons to some far flung court appearance.

Speeding yes. 90% of roadsite detection is a van parked up and some guy playing angry birds on his mobile phone. Grand, sorted, why actually bother. if it can be done the lazy way, why put any effort in whatsoever.
Unfortunately speed detection vans don't care about no tax, no insurance, green diesel, driver drunk, drugged, boot full of loot from a burglary or drugs, car stolen, driver on phone or even if the driver is disregarding any other rules of the road.
Other than that, there is the odd checkpoint with a Gard waving cars though (tax, insurance, grand) and besides that your chance of being caught doing anything other than speeding is miniscule.
But maybe it's Ireland? I have seen exactly zero checkpoints in Germany over the last 2 years, but you get the feeling that rules are regarded differently here.

galwaytt

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

OK, I can only speak for the Germany system, but I do find it much better to deal with. It starts with registering your car, you will have to show you have insurance, TÜV and you pay tax at the same time or fill out a direct debit mandate for same.
If you don't want to use your car, you de-register it, to do that you need to get yourself down to the local authority and bring the number plates with you, so they can scrape the stickers off.
When you de-register your car, your tax and insurance is also canceled. If you are caught with an unregistered and uninsured car, the driver is personally liable for the damage. There will be a very steep fine, points, ban and if anyone got injured, incarcaration.
Since everything is linked up, it means that to register your car, it MUST be insured. If you don't want to pay insurance, you MUST de-register it.

So, you insure it before you register it. On what basis - or is it the person that's insured, and not the vehicle.... ??

As long as our insurance system is all smoke & mirrors and obfuscation though I don't see any or satisfactory or easy solution.

CiniO

galwaytt wrote: »

So, you insure it before you register it. On what basis - or is it the person that's insured, and not the vehicle.... ??

I'm only guessing here, but I suppose on a basis that you own the car.
So you buy a car, insure it (probably by vin number) and then go to council office to register it in your name and get number plates.
I'm sure Dr fuzzenstein will clarify.

In Poland if you first register a car in the country (brand new from a dealer or imported second hand), then you get your reg cert and number plates from city office. They tell you that it must be insured today. So you have until end of day to purchase third party policy. If you don't, fines will come in the post. They also check for current roadworthiness cert for imported cars.

If you buy second hand car which was already registered in Poland, then third party insurance policy comes with the car, so also no risk that new owner will fail to buy a policy.

As long as our insurance system is all smoke & mirrors and obfuscation though I don't see any or satisfactory or easy solution.

I see easy solution.
Incorporate obligatory third party insurance into motortax. You pay your motortax, and insurance is included in it.
If your tax and insurance combo runs out you have to renew it or declare car off the road. If you don't, fines follow in the post.
Simple and efficient

Eggs For Dinner

CiniO wrote:

I see easy solution. Incorporate obligatory third party insurance into motortax. You pay your motortax, and insurance is included in it. If your tax and insurance combo runs out you have to renew it or declare car off the road. If you don't, fines follow in the post. Simple and efficient

If you think a Government Department could be as efficient as an Insurance Company in operating a 3rd party compensation scheme, your suggestion is seriously flawed. Getting the money in is handy enough, but when it comes to compensation (as it currently stands), you would be combining bureaucracy with a cumbersome legal system

galwaytt

CiniO wrote: »

I'm only guessing here, but I suppose on a basis that you own the car.
So you buy a car, insure it (probably by vin number) and then go to council office to register it in your name and get number plates.
I'm sure Dr fuzzenstein will clarify.

In Poland if you first register a car in the country (brand new from a dealer or imported second hand), then you get your reg cert and number plates from city office. They tell you that it must be insured today. So you have until end of day to purchase third party policy. If you don't, fines will come in the post. They also check for current roadworthiness cert for imported cars.

If you buy second hand car which was already registered in Poland, then third party insurance policy comes with the car, so also no risk that new owner will fail to buy a policy.

Lets see do I understand this: you reg the (new) car, and they tell you to insure it by end of day - with whom ? Is it the State ? So it's the vehicle that 'has the policy', not the owner ?

Then, on a 2nd hand car you buy, it already has insurance on it - so you're covered to drive it when you pick up ? And when does this expire, and who gets the renewal ? I'm trying to see how a car (owned, say, by a 40 yr old), and subsequently sold to a (say, 20yr old), would be covered at an already-paid premium ? So how are premiums calculated ???

CiniO wrote: »

I see easy solution.
Incorporate obligatory third party insurance into motortax. You pay your motortax, and insurance is included in it.
If your tax and insurance combo runs out you have to renew it or declare car off the road. If you don't, fines follow in the post.
Simple and efficient

You think a company that came up with IW and can't do rural broadband, has the capability to do this ? - lolz.

CiniO

galwaytt wrote: »

Lets see do I understand this: you reg the (new) car, and they tell you to insure it by end of day - with whom ?
Is it the State ?

No, not the state.
With any of widely available insurance companies.
Every insurance company offering car insurance on the market is obliged to provide you with quotation. They can't just say - sorry we can't offer you a cover like Irish insurers do.

So it's the vehicle that 'has the policy', not the owner ?

Policy is attached to the vehicle, but it's vehicle owner who needs to buy it obviously. It's his duty.
They base premium on few factors, but mostly on owner's claims history, type of car and address of the owner.
Every policy is fully open-drive, so everyone is covered to drive the car.

Then, on a 2nd hand car you buy, it already has insurance on it - so you're covered to drive it when you pick up ?

Yes.

And when does this expire, and who gets the renewal ?

Policies are annual, so they expire 1 year from inception of policy.
So depending when policy started, when you buy second hand car you might get nearly full 12 months policy with the car, or it might be only few days left.
New owner is obliged to contact insurance company to update details and rewrite policy into his name (within 30 days from car purchase). They will also recalculate his premium according to his no claims history and address.

Renewal is then sent to new owner.

I'm trying to see how a car (owned, say, by a 40 yr old), and subsequently sold to a (say, 20yr old), would be covered at an already-paid premium ? So how are premiums calculated ???

As above, if 20 years old buys the car, then he has to contact the insurance company which the car is insured with to update owners details. Very likely they'll ask him for extra premium if especially if his NCB will be lower than 40 years old seller.


Premium payment is obligatory. Renewals are automatic.
So in short, if you don't renew your policy, insurance company will renew it automatically for you and will chase you for a premium.

corcaigh1

galwaytt wrote: »

spotted this today, something we all knew anyway: https://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/business/old-cars-charged-more-by-insurers-as-nct-ignored-875007.html

Can a legal case be brought to the EU courts to force insurers to provide reasonably priced cover for all vehicles that have a valid NCT ??

Eggs For Dinner

corcaigh1 wrote: »

Can a legal case be brought to the EU courts to force insurers to provide reasonably priced cover for all vehicles that have a valid NCT ??

Many insurers offer reasonable premiums for older cars with a valid NCT.

Fanny Wank

corcaigh1 wrote: »

Can a legal case be brought to the EU courts to force insurers to provide reasonably priced cover for all vehicles that have a valid NCT ??

Define "reasonable" and how you came up with your definition?

dr.fuzzenstein

galwaytt wrote: »

So, you insure it before you register it. On what basis - or is it the person that's insured, and not the vehicle.... ??

As long as our insurance system is all smoke & mirrors and obfuscation though I don't see any or satisfactory or easy solution.

Sorry, not been on here for a while.
Registering is the last step. The car first needs TÜV. Then you need insurance. Only once you have those, can you register it.
This is because you only get a numberplate once everything is ok.
It is nigh on impossible to drive a car without tax, TÜV and insurance.
And it's the car that's insured, not the person.
If you want to borrow a car in Germany it's a simple as "hey, can I borrow your car?", "Sure, just don't crash it" (tosses keys)