Neighbour posted Retention Notice

Parawata

Hi, we've been trying to compromise with a neighbour on a site next door for over a year. Our neighbour (who doesn't live there yet) bought an old stone barn on a 1 acre site purportedly as a business premises where the gable end of the barn serves as part of our boundary wall overlooking our front garden.

He's been building/renovating with no planning permission for over a year at this stage. The work that directly impacts on our property is a number of dormer windows to the rear which look directly into some of our bedrooms, reinstated windows on the gable end that overlook only our garden (not his) which was previously very private with high walls as well a substantial entrance porch facing directly at the same bedrooms as the dormers. He's lied time and time again, at first saying it was a business premises and only when it became obvious it was residental did he admit he was planning to turn it into his house.

We don't mind that, all we had issue with was the invasion of privacy so have tried to be as reasonable as possible, i.e. asking could he use misted glass in the windows that look directly into our garden (the only view from these is our garden, not his and all privacy is now gone). With the dormers he had promised from when the frames first went in to remove, then to realign, then to replace with skylights. Finally after a lot of fruitless compromises on the dormers asked for their removal altogether which he again agreed to (and reneged on yet again).

He's now put a retention order for these as well as all the other building work, none of which was authorised so we're guessing all the promises were just stalling tactics until he'd completed the conversion.

Note: This building was never a residential building, it's use was originally agricultural and was just used as storage by the previous business owner when he bought it as a commercial property, the address is listed as his business.

So what are our options now? There have been a few objections on the road (found out from a mutual neighbour to the objectors) which I'm guessing is the reason he has gone the retention route.

Can we object to this? It's obvious at this stage he was never acting in good faith (as if we needed further proof). Seems to make a mockery of the whole planning process if he can just do what he wants and then keep it.

Thanks

Gumbo

Parawata wrote: »

Hi, we've been trying to compromise with a neighbour on a site next door for over a year. Our neighbour (who doesn't live there yet) bought an old stone barn on a 1 acre site purportedly as a business premises where the gable end of the barn serves as part of our boundary wall overlooking our front garden.

He's been building/renovating with no planning permission for over a year at this stage. The work that directly impacts on our property is a number of dormer windows to the rear which look directly into some of our bedrooms, reinstated windows on the gable end that overlook only our garden (not his) which was previously very private with high walls as well a substantial entrance porch facing directly at the same bedrooms as the dormers. He's lied time and time again, at first saying it was a business premises and only when it became obvious it was residental did he admit he was planning to turn it into his house.

We don't mind that, all we had issue with was the invasion of privacy so have tried to be as reasonable as possible, i.e. asking could he use misted glass in the windows that look directly into our garden (the only view from these is our garden, not his and all privacy is now gone). With the dormers he had promised from when the frames first went in to remove, then to realign, then to replace with skylights. Finally after a lot of fruitless compromises on the dormers asked for their removal altogether which he again agreed to (and reneged on yet again).

He's now put a retention order for these as well as all the other building work, none of which was authorised so we're guessing all the promises were just stalling tactics until he'd completed the conversion.

Note: This building was never a residential building, it's use was originally agricultural and was just used as storage by the previous business owner when he bought it as a commercial property, the address is listed as his business.

So what are our options now? There have been a few objections on the road (found out from a mutual neighbour to the objectors) which I'm guessing is the reason he has gone the retention route.

Can we object to this? It's obvious at this stage he was never acting in good faith (as if we needed further proof). Seems to make a mockery of the whole planning process if he can just do what he wants and then keep it.

Thanks

Make an Official Observation to the Planning Application. You can do so in writing and by paying the €20 fee.

db

I would strongly recommend getting a planning consultant to help you with this as they will know what is/isn't acceptable from a planning point of view and know how to communicate it in your objection.

Parawata

Thanks for the replies. Currently doing some renovations (with planning permission) so I'll talk with the architect and see if he can put the observation together.

Is there a time limit for observations? Notice went up around 10 days ago I think.

seamus

If you contact your local council's planning section, they will be able to tell you the closing date for submissions on it. I think it's a month, though definitely worth checking so you don't miss your opportunity.

Parawata

seamus wrote: »

If you contact your local council's planning section, they will be able to tell you the closing date for submissions on it. I think it's a month, though definitely worth checking so you don't miss your opportunity.

Thanks Seamus, called and told 5 weeks since the receipt of notice so have a bit of time to do it. Not a route I wanted to go but he hasn't really left me any choice at this stage.

Thanks again

Gumbo

Parawata wrote: »

Thanks Seamus, called and told 5 weeks since the receipt of notice so have a bit of time to do it. Not a route I wanted to go but he hasn't really left me any choice at this stage.

Thanks again

just make sure to check online for the closing date of submissions as the site notice date and the lodgement date may be different.

5 weeks from the date that the Application was received by the Council is the official period.

Parawata

kceire wrote: »

just make sure to check online for the closing date of submissions as the site notice date and the lodgement date may be different.

5 weeks from the date that the Application was received by the Council is the official period.

Thanks kceire, they gave me the date of closure. Also advised me to keep an eye on the pre-validation before making a submission as it might be rejected out of hand. Hope that's the case. Already hearing on the grapevine that we're being portrayed as a "problem" neighbour when the reverse is the case so would prefer not to have to do this if at all possible.

sea12

Don’t be concerned about what others might think ir how they perceive you. This neighbor has completely taken advantage of you. Nice guys don’t win in this world unfortunately. Send in your submission and don’t worry about anybody else

minikin

If your neighbour somehow succeeds with retention then erect a structure with a large panel of plywood just inside your boundary to block his view.

Parawata

sea12 wrote:

Don’t be concerned about what others might think ir how they perceive you. This neighbor has completely taken advantage of you. Nice guys don’t win in this world unfortunately. Send in your submission and don’t worry about anybody else

We're relatively new to the area and the neighbour comes from a local family who have been here for generations, seem to be a well known reputable family hence the concern on our reputation. It's quite a rural area where getting on with your neighbours makes life a lot less difficult. Only getting to know the neighbours so anything bad said about us by someone well known could have a long lasting impact.

minikin wrote:

If your neighbour somehow succeeds with retention then erect a structure with a large panel of plywood just inside your boundary to block his view.

If they do get retention afraid that's what we're going to have to do which is a shame as it's a beautiful old building that was a pleasure to look at until all the work started. Only a partial solution though, can block the view into our front garden but not the bedrooms due to orientation of the buildings.

Question on that, as the gable end is our boundary wall are we legally entitled to fix panels snug into the window insets or do they have to be attached to posts in front of the windows? From living in estates I know you can paint the boundary wall your side, put up shelves, whatever you want but not sure what the case is here.
Not an approach I would want to take, despite all he's done I don't really want to sink to that level but good to know what is and isn't legally allowed. Might at least give leverage to convince him to install misted glass in those windows if he does get retention and I can at least tell him I'm allowed block the windows completely.

Ginger83

Parawata wrote: »

We're relatively new to the area and the neighbour comes from a local family who have been here for generations, seem to be a well known reputable family hence the concern on our reputation. It's quite a rural area where getting on with your neighbours makes life a lot less difficult. Only getting to know the neighbours so anything bad said about us by someone well known could have a long lasting impact.


If they do get retention afraid that's what we're going to have to do which is a shame as it's a beautiful old building that was a pleasure to look at until all the work started. Only a partial solution though, can block the view into our front garden but not the bedrooms due to orientation of the buildings.

Question on that, as the gable end is our boundary wall are we legally entitled to fix panels snug into the window insets or do they have to be attached to posts in front of the windows? From living in estates I know you can paint the boundary wall your side, put up shelves, whatever you want but not sure what the case is here.
Not an approach I would want to take, despite all he's done I don't really want to sink to that level but good to know what is and isn't legally allowed. Might at least give leverage to convince him to install misted glass in those windows if he does get retention and I can at least tell him I'm allowed block the windows completely.

Plant a line of popular trees. They can grow 10 foot a year.

Parawata

Ginger83 wrote: »

Plant a line of popular trees. They can grow 10 foot a year.

I might skip that. Used to have a row of them in another part of the garden. I say used as don't them anymore after the high winds a few weeks back. Tree surgeon who came out to trim the remainder said most of his calls were poplars and last tree he would advise planting. At least I've got a supply of firewood for the next few years

Anyway thanks for the advice, planting in front of them is something I had considered, it's a reasonable option if he gets the go ahead

Ginger83

Parawata wrote: »

I might skip that. Used to have a row of them in another part of the garden. I say used as don't them anymore after the high winds a few weeks back. Tree surgeon who came out to trim the remainder said most of his calls were poplars and last tree he would advise planting. At least I've got a supply of firewood for the next few years

Anyway thanks for the advice, planting in front of them is something I had considered, it's a reasonable option if he gets the go ahead

I lost 4 myself. What height are we talking?

Parawata

Fully grown according to the tree surgeon, approx 80-90ft give or take. Tall buggers, looked nice but a lot of shatter limbs in the gusts, some had the main trunks snapped clean halfway up

wildwillow

Get professional help. If it is an old barn it may even be listed or you could make the case for having it listed. He would not get permission for a new build so close to you and with those windows. Check drainage and water and sewers. He is also making a change of use.
Locals can sometimes get away with a development which would be refused to an outsider on the basis of residency on the area.
You really need help to put a reasonable argument forward.

Parawata

wildwillow wrote: »

Get professional help. If it is an old barn it may even be listed or you could make the case for having it listed.

Not listed unfortunately although given how beautiful it was with some very unique features it should be.

wildwillow wrote: »

He would not get permission for a new build so close to you and with those windows. Check drainage and water and sewers. He is also making a change of use.

I thought that with a new build, only thing in his favour with those windows is they were part of the original structure. If I'd known someone would turn it into a house I would have made bricking them up part of the agreement for buying. People I bought off owned both as they were part of the same estate originally, hence the unusual proximity. He also told us the new owner was using it for storage so didn't seem an issue.

He's actually using our water supply as well. Original owner signed an affidavit that he'd cut all services but only found out recently when a leak developed that next door is still using ours and knew it.

Not sure what he's doing for a septic tank, he said there was one on site when we asked after finding out he was using our water (something I need to rectify)

Big Sis

db wrote: »

I would strongly recommend getting a planning consultant to help you with this as they will know what is/isn't acceptable from a planning point of view and know how to communicate it in your objection.

I'm sorry for hijacking your thread, Parawata, and I empathise with your situation. We are currently in a similar position... misled by neighbours who built a non-exempt extension without consultation; without drawings, without planning; with promises of modifications later reneged on; and with a large window overshooting and oversailing the boundary wall at right-angles to, and inches from, our living room window. It also totally shades out our living room window and garden seating area which, facing West NW, has always had full sun in the afternoon and evening.

As a brand newbie to the boards, I am very interested to find out where here is the best place to discuss options with a chartered planner.

I wish you the best in your endeavours.

jmBuildExt

Big Sis wrote: »

I'm sorry for hijacking your thread, Parawata, and I empathise with your situation. We are currently in a similar position... misled by neighbours who built a non-exempt extension without consultation; without drawings, without planning; with promises of modifications later reneged on; and with a large window overshooting and oversailing the boundary wall at right-angles to, and inches from, our living room window. It also totally shades out our living room window and garden seating area which, facing West NW, has always had full sun in the afternoon and evening.

As a brand newbie to the boards, I am very interested to find out where here is the best place to discuss options with a chartered planner.

I wish you the best in your endeavours.

Firstly you need to identify if they have indeed built an un-exempt extension or not.
i.e. is it less than 40sqm (total extensions), leaving >25sqm space etc etc (look up exempted development on your county council's website or on citizens information for the details).

You mention windows, the most obvious one to check for is that any groundfloor window are more than 1m from the boundary it faces.

Blocking sunlight from where it once shone is not a defining factor as to whether its exempt or not.

Building/oversailing the boundary wall can be a bit complicated, but generally speaking they cant build anything overhanging your land.

Big Sis

jmBuildExt wrote: »

Firstly you need to identify if they have indeed built an un-exempt extension or not.
i.e. is it less than 40sqm (total extensions), leaving >25sqm space etc etc (look up exempted development on your county council's website or on citizens information for the details).

You mention windows, the most obvious one to check for is that any groundfloor window are more than 1m from the boundary it faces.

Blocking sunlight from where it once shone is not a defining factor as to whether its exempt or not.

Building/oversailing the boundary wall can be a bit complicated, but generally speaking they cant build anything overhanging your land.

Hi JM, thank you for your reply.
We're absolutely sure it's not exempt and it's been confirmed to us by a planning inspector that planning is required. It's at the front of the property, comprises a room extension and a veranda/porch with a pitch roof. The development runs the full width of the house and the extension has a wraparound style window, one side of which abuts our boundary at right angles to our living room window. We can see into their home and they into ours.
We would like to discuss the matter with a professional planner with a view to engaging them to assist us in forming a clear and comprehensive observation regarging the application, when submitted.
Regards,
Sis

moleyv

Big Sis wrote:

Hi JM, thank you for your reply. We're absolutely sure it's not exempt and it's been confirmed to us by a planning inspector that planning is required. It's at the front of the property, comprises a room extension and a veranda/porch with a pitch roof. The development runs the full width of the house and the extension has a wraparound style window, one side of which abuts our boundary at right angles to our living room window. We can see into their home and they into ours. We would like to discuss the matter with a professional planner with a view to engaging them to assist us in forming a clear and comprehensive observation regarging the application, when submitted. Regards, Sis

You'll find a list of planning consultancies by area on the Irish Planning Institute website

Markcheese

What height are the windows on the gable wall that overlook your garden..? These were bricked up when you bought the house, ?

Big Sis

moleyv wrote: »

You'll find a list of planning consultancies by area on the Irish Planning Institute website

Thank you very much, Moleyv.
Regards,
Sis

Big Sis

Markcheese wrote: »

What height are the windows on the gable wall that overlook your garden..? These were bricked up when you bought the house, ?

Hi Mark,
The window is ground floor / approximately 4.5' high and 3.5' wide, at the same level as the original window.
This extension has just been built.
Regards,
Sis

Parawata

Big Sis wrote: »

Hi Mark,
The window is ground floor / approximately 4.5' high and 3.5' wide, at the same level as the original window.
This extension has just been built.
Regards,
Sis

I think this question may have been directed at me, one of the reasons why it's always better to start your own thread

Mark in answer to your question, no they weren't. Neither was a door that lead directly into our property that was bricked up prior to purchase. Unfortunately at the time as we were told it was sold as a storage building privacy issues never entered our minds. However we have been advised that these would more than likely be refused in the event permission was granted to convert to a residence on the grounds of fire hazard. I'd imagine one of the planning conditions would have been to brick them up.

Don't know the height off the top of my head but I'd say each would be approx 1.5 to 2 metres tall by 1 metre wide

Big Sis, with regard to the window in the party wall. As above from talking with our architect this would be refused on the grounds of fire hazard alone by any planners. Best bet is to contact the local councils unauthorised development dept and state your case. They normally have a form you can make your observations on. As long as it's not deemed malicious they will come and inspect the building works. From what you describe it will be fairly apparent it's completely in breach of code.

Big Sis

Parawata wrote: »

I think this question may have been directed at me, one of the reasons why it's always better to start your own thread

I'm sorry, Parawata. Noted.

Parawata wrote: »

Big Sis, with regard to the window in the party wall. As above from talking with our architect this would be refused on the grounds of fire hazard alone by any planners. Best bet is to contact the local councils unauthorised development dept and state your case. They normally have a form you can make your observations on. As long as it's not deemed malicious they will come and inspect the building works. From what you describe it will be fairly apparent it's completely in breach of code.

Thank you, Parawata. I hope your issue is resolved in your favour.
Regards,
Sis

Parawata

Big Sis wrote: »

I'm sorry, Parawata. Noted.


Thank you, Parawata. I hope your issue is resolved in your favour.
Regards,
Sis

No worries, and thanks, best of luck to you as well

rayjdav

He did nothing wrong by not consulting you, no obligation to. Would have been "neighbourly" but not required.
Point of the invalidation, if you want to put observation in, you should do it asap. Can take weeks to validate an application.
Re planning consultant, you can also engage a local Arch/AT to do this work, someone who works in the game and is competent.

If it was an old barn, he will have to provide treatment system to change to dwelling and that is something LA's look very hard at. That may be your best argument, depending on site, ie rural or Irish Water mains connection.

Parawata

rayjdav wrote: »

He did nothing wrong by not consulting you, no obligation to. Would have been "neighbourly" but not required.

Not sure where I wrote that that was wrong. It was the constant lies for over a year, us then attempting to compromise to avoid causing him financial loss as each time he'd already have done something he'd promised he wouldn't or choosing to "misunderstand" what had been agreed.

We knew more or less from the start of the serious building works that he had no permission. Rather than inform the council we were trying to do the neighbourly thing and work with him, taking a lot of time out to meet, discuss and as we thought agree each time, was like groundhog day.

No, he's not obliged to consult with us, but neither were we obliged to entertain an illegal development for over a year in the hopes he would have some modicum of fairness and honesty considering the decency and patience we showed him.

rayjdav wrote: »

Point of the invalidation, if you want to put observation in, you should do it asap. Can take weeks to validate an application.
Re planning consultant, you can also engage a local Arch/AT to do this work, someone who works in the game and is competent.

If it was an old barn, he will have to provide treatment system to change to dwelling and that is something LA's look very hard at. That may be your best argument, depending on site, ie rural or Irish Water mains connection.

Yeah we did that via an architect we've been working with so in well before submissions final date. Re the water, as I mentioned in a previous post he is using our supply. Again us trying to be decent as at the time he told us it would just be a few employees in his commercial yard from time to time using a toilet he put in. Thought it was cheeky as hell but being new to the area we let it slide for the moment. Thanks

Markcheese

Hi parawatta, meant to get back yesterday, the reason I was asking about window height was in relation to planting or even fences to screen the windows, (I think I'd be putting in a fast growing creeper immediately, irrespective of the planning challenge,) obviously the dormer or roof light are another story...
Things like water, get sorted straight away.. (take some advice to make sure you're not cutting him off unfairly or unreasonably)
You may not be able or even want to stop the. development next door but make sure it'll be done right...
Ón the What the surrounding neighbours will think, try not to worry, don't get into a protracted dispute that might leave you bitter and petty with your neighbour. But do the removing a sticking plaster thing " one short sharp pull" and then leave it to the council...

rayjdav

Markcheese wrote: »

Things like water, get sorted straight away.. (take some advice to make sure you're not cutting him off unfairly or unreasonably)

If he is using your supply, at your discretion, cut him off now.... There is nothing unfair/unreasonable about it unless there is some legal agreement in place. He cant have it both ways.....