Grappling vs Striking - that old chestnut

average hero

It has probably been done quite a bit in the past, but things change, forums move on and users come and go so let's have a friendly discussion about it.

Khabib vs Conor reflected the beginnings of the UFC where it is was two styles going up against one another (grappling vs striking). Obviously you need a certain amount of both, but does one outshine the other?

I'm a grappler and train in grappling arts. I think that high level grappling beats high level striking although grappling looks less impressive than striking.

I say this because grappling (as a whole) I think has more diverse situations where it can be used. It can be purely ground (bjj,judo,sambo, wrestling), it can be in the clinch (wrestling, sambo, judo, aspects of Muay Thai) and can be used for takedowns and restraint (judo, wrestling,sambo).

My previous favourite fighter was Fedor Emelianenko who famously used judo and sambo to transition into ground and pound. In this year's fights we have seen other grapplers using their grappling to beat strikers such as Miocic beating Ngannou, Woodley beating Till and last night, Khabib beat Conor.

I am not insistent about this though and I look forward to everyone's opinions

Personally don't find grappling entertaining to watch at all. It's awful.

Tazzimus

RoboKlopp wrote: »

Personally don't find grappling entertaining to watch at all. It's awful.

You'd be more suited to watching boxing or kickboxing so.

Both disciplines have their strengths and weaknesses.

Top tier striker will light you up as you try to close the distance to grab hold of them.

Top tier grappler will drag you to the ground and smother you, negating any offence you try.

rob316

A wrestler controls where the fight goes, high level grappling is a real art. How khabib does and just sucks the life out his opponent I don't know how you could call that boring.

You want stand up then watch kickboxing. I personally like a rounded fight one with all disciplines shown. As someone who trains MMA I will tell you wrestling is the hardest of all disciplines. Most people can throw a punch and have a good striking base in a short time, wrestling takes years.

If you follow the amateur game it's littered with lads from boxing backgrounds with good striking but awful grappling. You need to be well rounded. Look at the current division champions mostly wrestlers, it's the most effective style.

Cejudo - wrestler
Dillashaw - wrestler
Khabib - wrestler
Whittaker - wrestler
Woodley - wrestler
DC - wrestler

Ush1

The argument was sort of solved by the Gracie's a long time ago.

A pure grappler will beat a pure striker most of the time and I say that as someone who primarily kickboxes.

Now if the striker learns enough grappling to maybe not get taken down or learns to get back up, then it's a different story.

ctrl-alt-delete

I don't find grappling entertaining myself - but maybe that is because i don't understand the art of it.

I really enjoyed the Ferguson v Pettis fight as for a casual MMA fan like myself it is bound to be more entertaining.

Are there any decent grappler v grappler fights out there to watch?

callaway92

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

I don't find grappling entertaining myself - but maybe that is because i don't understand the art of it.

I really enjoyed the Ferguson v Pettis fight as for a casual MMA fan like myself it is bound to be more entertaining.

Are there any decent grappler v grappler fights out there to watch?

Maia vs Gunnar Nelson maybe.

I think you only appreciate a grappler when watching in person. The strength/skill to hold another man the same weight as you down for 15/25 minutes is pretty insane.

ianob7

Demian Maia Vs Gunnar Nelson is a good watch IMO

Edit: calloway beat me to it. Didn't see your reply

Subcomandante Marcos

rob316 wrote: »

A wrestler controls where the fight goes, high level grappling is a real art. How khabib does and just sucks the life out his opponent I don't know how you could call that boring.

You want stand up then watch kickboxing. I personally like a rounded fight one with all disciplines shown. As someone who trains MMA I will tell you wrestling is the hardest of all disciplines. Most people can throw a punch and have a good striking base in a short time, wrestling takes years.

If you follow the amateur game it's littered with lads from boxing backgrounds with good striking but awful grappling. You need to be well rounded. Look at the current division champions mostly wrestlers, it's the most effective style.

Cejudo - wrestler
Dillashaw - wrestler
Khabib - wrestler
Whittaker - wrestler
Woodley - wrestler
DC - wrestler

Whittaker is a wrestler now?

Since when?

TJ can wrestle, but his striking and footwork is what won him a world championship.

Pkiernan

rob316 wrote: »

A wrestler controls where the fight goes, high level grappling is a real art. How khabib does and just sucks the life out his opponent I don't know how you could call that boring.

You want stand up then watch kickboxing. I personally like a rounded fight one with all disciplines shown. As someone who trains MMA I will tell you wrestling is the hardest of all disciplines. Most people can throw a punch and have a good striking base in a short time, wrestling takes years.

If you follow the amateur game it's littered with lads from boxing backgrounds with good striking but awful grappling. You need to be well rounded. Look at the current division champions mostly wrestlers, it's the most effective style.

Cejudo - wrestler
Dillashaw - wrestler
Khabib - wrestler
Whittaker - wrestler
Woodley - wrestler
DC - wrestler

You forgot Andre the Giant !

MartyMcFly84

TJ can wrestle, but his striking and footwork is what won him a world championship.

Partly agreed. Having such a strong wrestling base allowed TJ to focus more on his striking. We have seen many high level strikers struggle in the transition to MMA. Generally those who tend to do best in MMA have a strong grappling background which allows them to work on their striking.

Generally strikers moving in to MMA struggle with confidence throwing shots freely once they have been taken down a few times.

rob316

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

Whittaker is a wrestler now?

Since when?

TJ can wrestle, but his striking and footwork is what won him a world championship.

Hes entered some wrestling competitions and won he clearly has a solid base, but I might be a bit exaggerating on him.

TJ has been able to focus on his striking because his grappling background was so strong. EDIT: beaten to it above

Mellor

rob316 wrote: »

Hes entered some wrestling competitions and won he clearly has a solid base, but I might be a bit exaggerating on him.

He has no wrestling background. He starting in MMA more or less directly. Like most fighters trains in BJJ, basic wrestling etc.
He competes a fair bit in BJJ. And a few years ago he enter a few freestyle wrestling competitions. Did pretty well and qualified for commonwealth games.
While it’s a decent achievement for a guy with no real wrestling background. The standard is nowhere near that of America.

Feisar

Ush1 wrote: »

The argument was sort of solved by the Gracie's a long time ago.

A pure grappler will beat a pure striker most of the time and I say that as someone who primarily kickboxes.

Now if the striker learns enough grappling to maybe not get taken down or learns to get back up, then it's a different story.

I'm not so sure it was, early strickers didn't have a clue against grapplers and often gave up their backs. Basically the same thing as a grappler sticking out their chin and giving a stricker the opertunity to land a free shot.

Mr. CooL ICE

ctrl-alt-delete wrote: »

Are there any decent grappler v grappler fights out there to watch?

Tor Troeng vs Rafael Natal is probably my favourite, but don't comment on the striking. Also, Rousey/Tate 1 + 2. Palhares/Belcher. Maia/Munoz.

There's probably better from other orgs but above would be my favourite from the UFC.

Ush1

Feisar wrote: »

I'm not so sure it was, early strickers didn't have a clue against grapplers and often gave up their backs. Basically the same thing as a grappler sticking out their chin and giving a stricker the opertunity to land a free shot.

But that basically agrees with what I've said. The Gracies were obviously grapplers.

Early and current strikers don't know about giving up their backs, that's why I said a pure striker and a pure grappler.

I think you put the best kickboxer in the world against the best wrestler/bjj guy and the grappler wins 9/10 for me.

Richard tea

I think this is the most fitting thread for my question. A high level BJJ fighter VS a High level grapple. Out of 10 fights who would fair the better. Or is that a how long is a piece of string question?

Subcomandante Marcos

Richard tea wrote: »

I think this is the most fitting thread for my question. A high level BJJ fighter VS a High level grapple. Out of 10 fights who would fair the better. Or is that a how long is a piece of string question?

A high level BBJ player is a high level grappler...

Richard tea

Subcomandante Marcos wrote: »

A high level BBJ player is a high level grappler...

Sorry I meant a BJJ fighter vs someone like khabib. I don't know who is regarded top of the game in BJJ?

Subcomandante Marcos

Richard tea wrote: »

Sorry I meant a BJJ fighter vs someone like khabib. I don't know who is regarded top of the game in BJJ?

In a grappling competition? In Gi or no-gi grappling I'd expect the likes of Corbinha or Garry Tonon (two of the better guys around 70KG) to beat Khabib but it wouldn't be easy for them.


He'd slap them silly in an MMA fight though.

Feisar

Ush1 wrote: »

But that basically agrees with what I've said. The Gracies were obviously grapplers.

Early and current strikers don't know about giving up their backs, that's why I said a pure striker and a pure grappler.

I think you put the best kickboxer in the world against the best wrestler/bjj guy and the grappler wins 9/10 for me.

But the Gracies weren't alien to the concept of striking, how to close distance etc.

Mellor

Subcomandante Marcos wrote:

In Gi or no-gi grappling I'd expect the likes of Corbinha or Garry Tonon (two of the better guys around 70KG) to beat Khabib but it wouldn't be easy for them.

He'd slap them silly in an MMA fight though.

Cobrinha is way smaller. He competes in 66/67kg so walks around less than than. Khabib is at least as big as the 77kg guys.
Top fighters for Khabib would be Kron, Lepri, JT Torres, or maybe Tonon. They all catch him in any BJJ ruleset. I’d ADCC is closer, but those 4 still do it.

MMA no contest.

Richard tea wrote: »

Sorry I meant a BJJ fighter vs someone like khabib. I don't know who is regarded top of the game in BJJ?

Depends entirely on the ruleset. A top BJJ fighters beats him in BJJ.
He loses to a top wrestler like in pure wrestling. Like Jordan Burroughs. Or fellow chechan Saitiev.

As Marcos said he slaps them all silly in MMA, that’s his ruleset.

Mellor

average hero wrote: »

I think that high level grappling beats high level striking although grappling looks less impressive than striking.

I say this because grappling (as a whole) I think has more diverse situations where it can be used.

Pure grappling beats pure striking (assuming the same relative ability obviously).
But I don’t think it’s because of diversity.

A grappler, even if they never trained striking in their lives, understands how punches and kicks work on a basic level. Many grappling techniques involve controlling the limbs, which has the side effect of preventing striking.
Once they are incontrol on top of you, a grappler can themselves strike at will.

A striker, or anyone who has never grappled, has absolutely no grasp of how to move when on the ground.

Ush1

Feisar wrote: »

But the Gracies weren't alien to the concept of striking, how to close distance etc.

See Mellors post above. Everyone has some idea of a punch being thrown.

rob316

And if your calling Khabib's style boring I don't know what to say, he brutalizes and total dominates his opponent. I could understand someone saying Maia is boring.

Mellor

rob316 wrote: »

And if your calling Khabib's style boring I don't know what to say, he brutalizes and total dominates his opponent. I could understand someone saying Maia is boring.

Round 2 was a brutal domination, where he boxed the head off McGregor.

Round 1 was clinical control. I can understand how a layperson finds that boring (saying that as a grappler). To their eyes noting is happening.

MartyMcFly84

I tend to be the "go to guy" to talk about McGregor fights in my office. Its only McGregor fights though. It shows how many people who would never normally watch or have interest in MMA tune in or stay up to watch his fights.

The CEO even came up to me to talk about it yesterday. Surprisingly he knew a lot more than most which was cool. However the mass verdict in my office from those not in the know was that is was not a good fight to watch. Casual fans are not fans of grappling , particularly the smothering style of Khabib.

While I was engrossed in the fight, most people thought it was pants and loved the Ferguson Petits fight for the exciting visceral action and toe to toe style.

Feisar

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

I tend to be the "go to guy" to talk about McGregor fights in my office. Its only McGregor fights though. It shows how many people who would never normally watch or have interest in MMA tune in or stay up to watch his fights.

The CEO even came up to me to talk about it yesterday. Surprisingly he knew a lot more than most which was cool. However the mass verdict in my office from those not in the know was that is was not a good fight to watch. Casual fans are not fans of grappling , particularly the smothering style of Khabib.

While I was engrossed in the fight, most people thought it was pants and loved the Ferguson Petits fight for the exciting visceral action and toe to toe style.

I trained in MMA for two years, about 10 years ago now so you won't see me about in Affliction gear saying I'm a cage fighter or anything. My point being even someone like me as a spectator finds grappling fairly boring to watch.

rob316

MartyMcFly84 wrote: »

I tend to be the "go to guy" to talk about McGregor fights in my office. Its only McGregor fights though. It shows how many people who would never normally watch or have interest in MMA tune in or stay up to watch his fights.

The CEO even came up to me to talk about it yesterday. Surprisingly he knew a lot more than most which was cool. However the mass verdict in my office from those not in the know was that is was not a good fight to watch. Casual fans are not fans of grappling , particularly the smothering style of Khabib.

While I was engrossed in the fight, most people thought it was pants and loved the Ferguson Petits fight for the exciting visceral action and toe to toe style.

I got told by many casuals McGregor would win in a real fight, not one where you hug someones legs like a bitch :rolleyes:

Of course that point goes out the window when Khabib was the one that dropped McGregor.