Dublin Bus - Proposed 5 Year Deal Retaining All Routes from 2019

devnull

Haven't had a read through everything (links at bottom of post) but there are a few things that have jumped out based on having a 5 minute skim through, I'm sure someone else will spot something else

Summary
The NTA has today released details of it's intentions to award a new 5 year Direct Award Contract to Dublin Bus for the years 2019 to 2024.

The Dublin Bus documents suggest that the NTA is minded not to open up any further routes to be competitively tendered before 2024 as it stands, but reserves the right to do so in certain circumstances.

Intergration
DB will be required to integrate further with the Transport for Ireland brand

In keeping with these objectives, the following requirements will be included in future PSO funded bus contracts, whether tendered or directly awarded.

The Authority may also wish to provide passenger information on board buses to its specification. To assist customers in viewing the Dublin bus network as a single integrated entity, this information will need to continue to be presented in a common format and style regardless of bus operator.

It is important from a bus customer point of view to view all PSO services as an integrated package, irrespective of operator. A unifying brand is required to achieve this.

The experience of the recent tender process highlights that there is significant effort and cost required to maintain the integration of services in a multi-operator environment.

BusConnects
There's also a part about BusConnects which is interesting

Early in the lifetime of the new contract, and once the final Bus Connects route network is confirmed, the Authority will need to work with Dublin Bus to amend or revise these routes and service levels to agree with those in the final Bus Connects network. This will require the Authority to negotiate a series of contract service variations with Dublin Bus.

In negotiating these contractual variations the Authority will need to be cognisant of two aspects in particular (1) the variation price Dublin Bus proposes to charge for the change, and whether the required variation can be implemented by Dublin Bus in a manner that provides good value for money to the Authority, (2) the ability of Dublin Bus to commit to the performance requirements for the service, including reliability, punctuality, regularity and customer service quality, and (3) the timescale for implementation of the variation, and whether it can be delivered by Dublin Bus in a manner that fits in with the overall Bus Connects network implementation programme.

If in the opinion of the Authority either route or service level variation costs or implementation timescales proposed by Dublin Bus appear to be excessive, the Authority reserves the right to competitively tender the services in question, in order to expedite the delivery of the Bus Connects service network in a timely and cost effective manner.

The scale of the changes to bus services anticipated in the Bus Connects network, including the introduction of entirely new bus routes in some areas, means that the Authority will need to consider further whether those routes will be added to the Direct Award contract with Dublin Bus or be competitively tendered.

Essentially appears to be saying that if DB are unreasonable on what they ask for from BusConnects, then the NTA will tender the routes out, which appears to be an attempt to try and keep them honest on costs, among other things.

NTA Documents
- DB Consultation Paper
- DB Proposed Contract
- DB Technical Report

Kopparberg Strawberry and Lime

I've been wondering where to post this so maybe we can adjust the thread title

But I heard there a little while ago, the Bus Eireann pay talks were taking place today in the WRC and management announced that the NTA tomorrow that a consultation period for tendering a further 10% of BUS Eireann will begin.

Made for interesting reactions from drivers.

devnull

I'm posting another thread about BE in a few seconds

devnull

DB Reaction
http://www.dublinbus.ie

Today, the National Transport Authority (NTA) announced their intention to enter into a further direct award contract with Dublin Bus in 2019 for the provision of bus services in the Dublin metropolitan region from 2019 to 2024. This includes all services currently operated by Dublin Bus, except those previously tendered in 2017.

The National Transport Authority will commence a public consultation process on this matter and Dublin Bus looks forward to the final decision in November.

Dublin Bus CEO, Ray Coyne, welcomed the announcement; “We will now carefully consider this proposal but we believe it reflects the success Dublin Bus has delivered and means we would continue to operate all Public Service Obligation routes in Dublin for the next five years, excluding those previously tendered in 2017”.

While the NTA report notes in particular that Dublin Bus has achieved a very high level of customer satisfaction, we are committed to continuing to find new ways to improve our services and ensure we are offering a sustainable service for our growing number of customers. In 2017, we carried 139 million customers and this trend is continuing during 2018 with numbers projected to increase to over 145 million customers by the end of the year.

Jamie2k9

Have DB agreed a pay deal yet, the current one is up around Feb if I'm not mistaken?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have DB agreed a pay deal yet, the current one is up around Feb if I'm not mistaken?

No, current agreement concluded 10 months ago with the last 3.75% rise.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

No, current agreement concluded 10 months ago with the last 3.75% rise.

Have they not submitted a new claim yet?

GM228

Jamie2k9 wrote: »

Have they not submitted a new claim yet?

Not yet.

There may be discussions at local level (have not been informed of any though), but nothing has come through the WRC yet.

I understood they may be waiting for GA to be fully operational first before any potential claim.

Jamie2k9

GM228 wrote: »

Not yet.

There may be discussions at local level (have not been informed of any though), but nothing has come through the WRC yet.

I understood they may be waiting for GA to be fully operational first before any potential claim.

Was thinking GA are responsible for no claim yet.

markpb

Does anyone know if they plan to move to a direct payment model (like GAI and Transdev) under the new contract or will they continue to let DB keep the farebox? It would simplify ticketing and finances considerably if they changed from the current model.

GM228

markpb wrote: »

Does anyone know if they plan to move to a direct payment model (like GAI and Transdev) under the new contract or will they continue to let DB keep the farebox? It would simplify ticketing and finances considerably if they changed from the current model.

All direct award contracts are net costs contracts meaning the operator keeps all fare revenue.

Competitive tendering contracts are gross cost contracts which means the operator does not see any of the fare box.

This is pretty sandard accross the EU, however, the consultation oddly enough states:-

It is also in interest of the public transport customer that a Gross Cost contract with incentives is introduced as well as further incentives and penalties to enhance customer experience.

The proposed contract itself however confirms it will be net cost based.

GM228

The NTA has recently published the report into the next DB contract aswell as submissions from interested parties.

Thrashssacre

Something odd I noticed in the report

“There is a strong case for moving the existing Dublin Bus routes 33 and 65 to a different form of service, more appropriate for towns of their distance from the city. There is also a strong case for linking them more closely with Bus Eireann routes 101 and 132 that parallel them to some extent. It should be noted that changes to operating area has already once been made in this decade, when Dublin Bus withdrew from Kilcock, leaving it to be served by Bus Eireann.”

They fail to mention that the changes in kilcock were very unpopular and also with a population of 6k vs 21k in the case of balbriggan I’m not sure the cases are as similar as Dublin bus are trying to portray. Personally pulling out of balbriggan and leaving it to just irish rail (who are already experienced massive capacity shortages) and Bus Éireann who are due to lose the 101 route as is due to poor performance is an idiot idea.

dfx-

Is there similar information, contract/consultation details etc, available on the routes GAI were given?

devnull

dfx- wrote: »

Is there similar information, contract/consultation details etc, available on the routes GAI were given?

Unlike Dublin Bus, Go Ahead Ireland were not given any routes, they had to competitively tender for them.

The only other operator that was given a direct award has similar details available.

KD345

Thrashssacre wrote: »

Something odd I noticed in the report

“There is a strong case for moving the existing Dublin Bus routes 33 and 65 to a different form of service, more appropriate for towns of their distance from the city. There is also a strong case for linking them more closely with Bus Eireann routes 101 and 132 that parallel them to some extent. It should be noted that changes to operating area has already once been made in this decade, when Dublin Bus withdrew from Kilcock, leaving it to be served by Bus Eireann.”

They fail to mention that the changes in kilcock were very unpopular and also with a population of 6k vs 21k in the case of balbriggan I’m not sure the cases are as similar as Dublin bus are trying to portray. Personally pulling out of balbriggan and leaving it to just irish rail (who are already experienced massive capacity shortages) and Bus Éireann who are due to lose the 101 route as is due to poor performance is an idiot idea.

I could be wrong, but those suggestions were just made by members of the public and interested parties, they are not the opinion of Dublin Bus.

cgcsb

Go ahead is off to a rocky start. Quality of driver training and recruitment is questionable. Give them some time but I don't think the NTA should be rushing to give that lot more routes.

L1011

cgcsb wrote: »

Go ahead is off to a rocky start. Quality of driver training and recruitment is questionable. Give them some time but I don't think the NTA should be rushing to give that lot more routes.

They aren't on direct award contracts, they won't be "given" more routes. If more DB routes are put up for tender (which appears unlikely) they would have to win the competitive tender.

Stephen15

cgcsb wrote: »

Go ahead is off to a rocky start. Quality of driver training and recruitment is questionable. Give them some time but I don't think the NTA should be rushing to give that lot more routes.

As the OP alluded to they won't be given any more routes. A lot the issues have due to the NTA themselves such as poor RTPI, bad fleet allocations most notably single decker buses on the 102 and unrealistic timetables.

Although some can be blamed on Go-Ahead themselves such as the decision make the same buses operate a number routes ie. not allocating each bus to a particular route such as making an inbound 75 go out from DL as a 63 causing knock delays if the 75 was delayed coming from Tallaght. I haven't found any issues myself with the quality of the driver training no more so than DB.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

haven't found any issues myself with the quality of the driver training no more so than DB.

+1, and it's worth pointing out that the drivers for both DB and GA are assessed by the same RSA employed assessors to the same standard when they receive their appropriate licence.

Yer Da sells Avon

cgcsb wrote: »

Go ahead is off to a rocky start. Quality of driver training and recruitment is questionable. Give them some time but I don't think the NTA should be rushing to give that lot more routes.

Considering the fact that every Go-Ahead driver had to pass the exact same driving test as Dublin Bus drivers, can you point to any specific inadequacies in the quality of their training?

It could definitely be argued that a disproportionately high number of Go-Ahead's drivers are inexperienced, having only recently passed the test. Anyone who has driven anything - bus, car whatever - will know that it takes time, beyond passing the test, to become completely comfortable with the size of the vehicle. But that's not an indictment of the company's instructors (almost all of whom have decades of experience in the UK) or the quality of training they've provided. As you say, give them time.

Stephen15 wrote:

Although some can be blamed on Go-Ahead themselves such as the decision make the same buses operate a number routes ie. not allocating each bus to a particular route such as making an inbound 75 go out from DL as a 63 causing knock delays if the 75 was delayed coming from Tallaght.

This is something that will hopefully end when/if they open a depot in (or around) Dún Laoghaire. It makes operational sense to send a bus to the Square (10 mins from Ballymount) and then on to Dún Laoghaire as a 75, rather than on a long, fuel-wasting 'dead run' down the M50. It's never good though, when operational needs are placed above the needs of customers.

devnull

cgcsb wrote: »

Go ahead is off to a rocky start. Quality of driver training and recruitment is questionable. Give them some time but I don't think the NTA should be rushing to give that lot more routes.

One thing I do agree on is that there should be a mechanism for the state to be able to seek new operators of publicly funded routes where an operator, whether public or private, fails to provide a certain standard of service over a prolonged period of time to their patrons and the public at large. Whether an operator is public or private or not should not mean we tolerate it more/less than another who is the opposite and there are no valid mitigating circumstances.

For what it's worth I agree that the NTA have made a wise decision to give Dublin Bus a new 5 year deal, because it is very sensible to see how things pan out with Go-Ahead before tendering any more routes. However they also need to make sure that it's not seen as a free pass for Dublin Bus to run the routes poorly in the knowledge that they have a 5 year contract. That's why the caveats about the right to tender routes if poor performance is offered over a prolonged period of time are sensible, if indeed they are in the next direct award contract.

Stephen15

GM228 wrote: »

+1, and it's worth pointing out that the drivers for both DB and GA are assessed by the same RSA employed assessors to the same standard when they receive their appropriate licence.

I think the main issue with the driving standards is that some of their drivers have taken wrong turns and some were slow initially due to nerves as they were starting. The wrong turns is something I would imagine happens to many drivers while starting out.

GM228

Stephen15 wrote: »

I think the main issue with the driving standards is that some of their drivers have taken wrong turns and some were slow initially due to nerves as they were starting. The wrong turns is something I would imagine happens to many drivers while starting out.

Something that many (if not most) DB drivers will admit to have done themselves when starting out.

The difference is DB is well established and only the odd time would you encounter a new driver who takes the wrong turn etc.

When everyone is new in the likes of GA you notice the mistakes more because the likelihood of it happening has increased ten fold because unlike the old outfit nearly everyone is in the same boat and there are no senior more experienced drivers to laugh at those school boy errors.

If I had a cent for every DB driver I had to direct over the last 20 years...

Stephen15

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

This is something that will hopefully end when/if they open a depot in (or around) Dún Laoghaire. It makes operational sense to send a bus to the Square (10 mins from Ballymount) and then on to Dún Laoghaire as a 75, rather than on a long, fuel-wasting 'dead run' down the M50. It's never good though, when operational needs are placed above the needs of customers.

Agreed but I think it would be better though to then send the 75 back out on another 75 duty rather than as a 63 or 45a. DB used to this but not as often GAI seem to be I know for example the 15:15 Saturday departure on the 63 used to be part of a 46a duty as this departure was sometimes operated by a VT which is rare for the 63. I think some 59 duties were covered by 46a duties aswell but not to the same extent as GAI.

dfx-

GM228 wrote: »

Something that many (if not most) DB drivers will admit to have done themselves when starting out.

The difference is DB is well established and only the odd time would you encounter a new driver who takes the wrong turn etc.

When everyone is new in the likes of GA you notice the mistakes more because the likelihood of it happening has increased ten fold because unlike the old outfit nearly everyone is in the same boat and there are no senior more experienced drivers to laugh at those school boy errors.

If I had a cent for every DB driver I had to direct over the last 20 years...

If only they had the time to prepare properly and not do this.

I mean what was the rush in getting them to start their routes until more were actually ready so?

Stephen15

dfx- wrote: »

If only they had the time to prepare properly and not do this.

Come on now your expecting a bit much. GAI buses were out all summer around DL route training saw plenty. Standard procedure in the bus industry the driver is only taught the route once as far as I believe this could be done in broad daylight so it may be trickier to remember if the first time a driver does a route is at night.

Also a driver could be asked to s/he is not trained to drive due to staff shortages, illness, breakdowns etc. so drivers are expected to have some degree of flexibility. This is standard practice and not unique to GAI it happens in DB, BE and I'm sure many of the privates.

cgcsb

L1011 wrote: »

They aren't on direct award contracts, they won't be "given" more routes. If more DB routes are put up for tender (which appears unlikely) they would have to win the competitive tender.

were there any other serious contenders this time around?

cgcsb

Yer Da sells Avon wrote: »

Considering the fact that every Go-Ahead driver had to pass the exact same driving test as Dublin Bus drivers, can you point to any specific inadequacies in the quality of their training?

Not knowing their route and having to ask customers would be a good example.

dashcamdanny

cgcsb wrote: »

Not knowing their route and having to ask customers would be a good example.

Not really. Its common enough in Dublin bus as well.

I got one day to learn 3 routes with DB. I took many wrong turns and asked many locals for advise.

As did many if not all of my colleagues.

SO what. As long as the driving is safe, the routes will come with experience.

I personally hate the fact Go-Ahead are here. But attacking the common feet on the ground is pointless.

cgcsb

dashcamdanny wrote: »

Not really. Its common enough in Dublin bus as well.

I got one day to learn 3 routes with DB. I took many wrong turns and asked many locals for advise.

As did many if not all of my colleagues.

SO what. As long as the driving is safe, the routes will come with experience.

I personally hate the fact Go-Ahead are here. But attacking the common feet on the ground is pointless.

I wasn't aware this was so common. Maybe it's a case that all eyes were on them because they are new. In any case you'd think that the company would double down on preventing such hiccups.

I've been on Dublin Buses where drivers have gotten out to go to the shop, DB drivers have swore at me.

More frequent and annoying behaviour includes:
Talking with their friend (standing by the driver's cabin), blocking customers from getting on and off.
Not opening the bloody centre doors.

So is this any better with GoAhead? not sure yet, needs more time.

markpb

cgcsb wrote: »

I wasn't aware this was so common. Maybe it's a case that all eyes were on them because they are new. In any case you'd think that the company would double down on preventing such hiccups.

There's only so much "doubling down" management can do, you can't stop people making mistakes, it's human nature.

dashcamdanny

The pressure of driving a bus in service for the first time upset my stomach for the first 6 months on the job.
It really feels like you are performing on stage and everyone is judging you. You are still not completely sure where each corner of the bus is in traffic, you are dealing with sometimes angry passengers and you are trying to remember where to go. I found it very challenging at the beginning. I know exactly how these new drivers feel. I also know it is short term.

It's like water off a ducks back now.

Bray Head

The NTA could proceed more aggressively with competitive tendering of DB routes.

This would probably mean disruption in the form of industrial action from DB staff.

At the same time the NTA has the huge objective of Bus Connects to deliver on. This will not occur without resistance from DB staff and management either.

Isn't this the case of the NTA sensibly picking one battle to fight at a time?

StreetLight

Bray Head wrote: »

The NTA could proceed more aggressively with competitive tendering of DB routes.

This would probably mean disruption in the form of industrial action from DB staff.

At the same time the NTA has the huge objective of Bus Connects to deliver on. This will not occur without resistance from DB staff and management either.

Isn't this the case of the NTA sensibly picking one battle to fight at a time?

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder about Dublin Bus. The staff have no problem with change, as long as it's done properly and fairly.

As has been pointed out numerous times within this forum, upcoming changes such as 24-hour services have already been agreed in principle.

Bray Head

Having been a customer of Dublin Bus since 1992, and watch it persist with practices long disappeared across Europe, I am realistic about the pace that change can be introduced.

patrickbrophy18

GM228 wrote: »

The NTA has recently published the report into the next DB contract aswell as submissions from interested parties.

It must be a typo. However, near the end of the document, the 8 bus is mentioned in Table A1. That route has been gone for over a year.

XPS_Zero

dashcamdanny wrote: »

The pressure of driving a bus in service for the first time upset my stomach for the first 6 months on the job.
It really feels like you are performing on stage and everyone is judging you. You are still not completely sure where each corner of the bus is in traffic, you are dealing with sometimes angry passengers and you are trying to remember where to go. I found it very challenging at the beginning. I know exactly how these new drivers feel. I also know it is short term.

It's like water off a ducks back now.

I often wondered this. I'm sure the power steering etc helps but I am baffled how they manage to maneuver those enormous double deckers through such tight spaces. Even on routes like the 45a you can see how tight some of the bends are around Bray and Shankill with oncoming traffic heading right towards you on the other side and not always enough space for both to round the bend.


I also don't know how the low attention span sleepwalking morons that pass as society now don't suffer multiple deaths by double decker bus each day as they cross red lights in the CC staring down at their phones or dashing across to gain that extra 2 seconds, thats what would scare the hell out of me starting out, not a fender bender.


I can see they are trained to be hyper aware of people around them though, I've noticed several times drivers watching me when I might have looked to them like I would dash out, and a few times when I was spaced out myself with earphones in, one of their beeps has made me aware they were there, and on one occasion stopped one of them hitting me because i looked up and saw the light had changed with the red man up right as i was about to dash out trying to make a train.






For two other points...staff often, in CIE, often DO have a problem with change that's why the RPA then the NTA and TII ended up existing, they didn't trust CIE with change. They often throw a spanner in the way of the simplest reform (or let their union do it for them). I wish people would stop taking this personally, as an attack on them and the way they personally do their job, this is not about you being lazy or unwilling to change it's a structural problem, a matter of how the system is set up and how people respond to that system and the incentives therein.
Those of us critical of that structure could also, I suppose, do with making it more clear that it is the system we are critical of not the individual personnel.





Yes there is more focus on GAI they are being held to an absurd standard, with people looking back at DB with rose tinted glasses making absurd claims every time a bus is 3 minutes late on the timer etc but they have to expect that, when you come in with the mantra of how you can take the heat of competition and do better than the existing company...well a hyper focus on your performance is inevitable, that's competition boys, deal with it. Lets just keep the criticisms in perspective a bit.

StreetLight

Might be of interest to some:

https://www.thejournal.ie/dublin-bus-airport-24-hour-service-4446031-Jan2019/