DMF problems?

whiterebel

I have a 141 Mokka 1.7CDTi 4x4. Serviced on the button at the main dealer. 5 year/100K warranty. EGR valve packed in a couple of months ago, €300+ at 107K. Opel would do nothing, and the garage wouldn't get involved.
I bring it in today, 114K on clock as it has been having problems 3 or 4 times, mostly in stop/start where it starts/shuts off/starts 8/10/12 times. This is accompanied by sounds like stones in a washing machine. I have got it going by turning off Eco mode, and pressing the accelerator when starting. Brought it to the dealer today, and they reckon the DMF is going - Cost €2200 with my "discount" as a worst case scenario if the clutch has to be changed too. Knock off €700 IF the clutch is ok
I can't really believe what they are telling me, tell the truth, fairly stunned at the moment. We were looking at changing the wife's car, but this is going to knock that plan a bit.
I'm tempted to throw a claim in against the garage with the small claims courts. Surely I should expect to get better than 4 years out of it? The reason I thought of this, is the garage said they will try Opel for goodwill - they didn't want to know when the EGR problem occurred. They said they would try Opel after I said "I think I'd prefer to take a run at you in court, rather than pay that money." Knee-jerk reaction from me, but definite change in their attitude when I said it.

A couple of questions for anyone in the know:
If I get this done, what are the chances it will go quickly again? It seems to be a really problematic technology for a lot of diesel cars.
Can I change it to a single flywheel?
Would you get the clutch done as well, or just do the DMF? I've seen articles where people suggest you're asking for problems just doing the DMF without the clutch.

Thanks in advance.

bazz26

There is no set mileage or time interval for a flywheel to fail. They are classed as a wear and tear item unless the parts fail due to defect. Also what type of driving are you doing, flywheels on diesels have been known to be more susceptible to failure if the car is used mainly for short stop/start journeys.

Have you gotten a price from an independant garage? It will most likely be a bit cheaper than a main dealer and since your already out of warranty I see no point in giving the main dealer the work if Opel are not going to contribute goodwill towards the cost. As for taking the garage to the SC court, I'm not sure why as they are not responsible for the part failing, that would be the manufacturer if the part failed prematurely that is.

Also it is recommended to replace the clutch at the same time as the flywheel as it saves you money on labour costs in the long run as the gearbox has to be taken out to do the job either way.

whiterebel

I think my self and the garages will have different views on what constitutes wear and tear. Under the Sale of Goods Act, contract is with the retailer/garage, not with the manufacturer. Small claims costs €25, and a judge decides if it is reasonable or not. I’ll do some checking and see if I can bring a claim first.

Mostly long journeys including motorway driving.

mgbgt1978

Whether you like it or not it sounds like the DMF is gone.
Get it to a smaller Indie Garage and get the DMF and Clutch changed....should be under €1k. Google Solid Flywheel Kits for your particular Car to get an idea of Parts Prices.

It's probably your best (and cheapest) option in fairness.

edit; you were posting as I was writing. A DMF (and Clutch) is considered to be a 'wear and tear' item. You will not get anywhere with a Claim. Plenty of pretty useless Drivers could burn out a Clutch in 30 minutes.

whiterebel

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Whether you like it or not it sounds like the DMF is gone.
Get it to a smaller Indie Garage and get the DMF and Clutch changed....should be under €1k. Google Solid Flywheel Kits for your particular Car to get an idea of Parts Prices.

It's probably your best (and cheapest) option in fairness.

edit; you were posting as I was writing. A DMF (and Clutch) is considered to be a 'wear and tear' item. You will not get anywhere with a Claim. Plenty of pretty useless Drivers could burn out a Clutch in 30 minutes.

Garage reckon the clutch is fine. They drove it for 2 hours today. I do understand how people can burn out a clutch, but these DMFs seem to have a massive failure rate, particularly OPEL/Vauxhall. Worst it’ll cost me is €25 to put the case to a judge, and let them make the decision. I’ll get on to George Dalton to see if he does the the DMF in Opels

Renegade Mechanic

If I was doing a flywheel, I'd do the clutch and the slave cylinder - and not because I'm a mechanic who's interest lies in selling you parts and labour, but because I'm a lazy bastard who doesn't want to take the whole lot apart all over again when either the clutch or slave cylinder fail.

The only car I removed a gearbox without replacing the clutch on was my own car, because the cylinder was bone dry and the friction disc was almost perfect and I was flat broke, buying the replacement gearbox "on tic" from a car scrapped out the back of the garage I worked in.
Replaced the gearbox and within a ****ing month the clutch was soaked with brake fluid :mad:


Now there are crowds that make solid flywheel, for example:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/VAUXHALL-ASTRA-H-1-7CDTI-DUAL-TO-SINGLE-MASS-FLYWHEEL-AND-CLUTCH-KIT-WITH-CSC-/361922657204

That's ^ for the astra, and I have difficulty finding one for the mokka 4x4, but they share engines, so might be worth some research.

Be sure to buy the modified clutches to go with them (basically a friction disc with a little more "spring"), important to get that because once you go solid, you've gone old school. Your take-off will be a little rougher than usual - still fine though, in fact you'll enjoy better feedback during gear changes.

bazz26

Where does the sale of goods act come into this? The car is now 4 years old and outside of original warranty, how long is a car to be of merchantable quality under the SoG act? Also if the SoG act on the likes of cars has no limit then why do manufacturers and retailers bother offering warranties or why do people pay for car repairs every day?

whiterebel

bazz26 wrote: »

Where does the sale of goods act come into this? The car is now 4 years old and outside of original warranty, how long is a car to be of merchantable quality under the SoG act? Also if the SoG act on the likes of cars has no limit then why do manufacturers and retailers bother offering warranties or why do people pay for car repairs every day?

You can make a claim up to 6 years. Most people aren’t aware of their consumer rights and believe warranty is a favour being done for them. It’s worth reading up on.

Renegade Mechanic

bazz26 wrote: »

Where does the sale of goods act come into this? The car is now 4 years old and outside of original warranty, how long is a car to be of merchantable quality under the SoG act? Also if the SoG act on the likes of cars has no limit then why do manufacturers and retailers bother offering warranties or why do people pay for car repairs every day?

It's well under age and only a little over mileage. If the OP has been good re: servicing and such, they might do something, but if Opel thumbed their noses at him over an EGR valve, I wouldn't hope for too much

Renegade Mechanic

2,200 is shocking tho...
If you can get a solid kit (or another DMF, might get more that four years) you should be able to find a decent indy who'll do it for half that. Not much less mind, because my mechanic's mind is picturing a 4x4 gearbox in that engine bay and it's coming to the conclusion that the available working space would be quite... "cosy"

whiterebel

Renegade Mechanic wrote: »

2,200 is shocking tho...
If you can get a solid kit (or another DMF, might get more that four years) you should be able to find a decent indy who'll do it for half that. Not much less mind, because my mechanic's mind is picturing a 4x4 gearbox in that engine bay and it's coming to the conclusion that the available working space would be quite... "cosy"

That’s including my 20% discount......:eek:

whiterebel

I forgot to ask - what happens when it does go? Car stops? clutch packs in? Can’t select gears?

Renegade Mechanic

whiterebel wrote: »

I forgot to ask - what happens when it does go? Car stops? clutch packs in? Can’t select gears?

The flywheel? Usually the car won't start if the TDC pickup (crankshaft sensor) is located on the flywheel, ever before the flywheel falls apart - which covers your car, I'd wager. If the pickup is elsewhere, driving regardless may be ill advised. It's quite a lot of mass that spins quite a lot out of balance as the springy bit between the dual masses gets worse putting things like crank bearings under pressure..

Eventually it collapses, and drive is disconnected between the engine side mass and gearbox side mass and you can pick whatever gear you want and sit still...
If you're at the "cement mixer full of snooker balls" stage, I'd be driving gingerly, as during the "collapse" part, you roll the dice on where the newly freed pieces go, so you could be adding a starter mother to the parts list for example - or if you're really unlucky, enough will get caught between the flywheel and bellhousing to damage the housing but you'd probably win the Euro millions first in fairness.. It's really unlikely to get that far tbh

TLDR you either won't start or you'll stop

Jimmy.

The pick up point on the flywheel would be on the base of the flywheel, I,e where it’s bolted to crank. Ring gear part.

martyc5674

In the meantime keep your foot on the clutch while starting it up...it will reduce the stress on it and keep the rattle down, if you have stop start tech switch it off aswell.

Toyotafanboi

I suppose the reality from the dealers point of view is that you are outside of the warranty period. If they were to hand out €2200 repairs to everybody, or even just to loyal customers "just outside warranty" they wouldnt be in business for very long. Not trying to defend them but you must be able to see why they aren't more forthcoming with a repair.

Cars need maintenance, maintenance costs money, you've used the flywheel for the last 114k kms/ 4 years, do you not owe a contribution to it's repair? Would you be happy with a middle ground where you both contribute? I expect it would be a lot easier to strike a deal if you go this route, Opel provide the parts FOC and you cover labour or something?

I've no first hand experience with Opel as a manufacturer but some manufacturers (generally the ones plugging huge warranties) don't entertain goodwill at all and generally if you are going to try and challenge that, a plea from the owner of the car directly to the manufacturer will carry far more weight than the garage doing it on your behalf. The garage moan to the manufacturer for everyone so their complaints lose clout and get fobbed back at them a lot easier.

In all reality though, €2200 Is as good as a PFO price. If echo the above, a decent independent workshop should see this sorted for around 50% of the price i'd say and you'd be mad not to do the clutch while you're in there, even if it looks ok. Main dealers are always very expensive for this type of work and have a very take it or leave it attitude towards taking them on too.

Hellrazer

Im in Opel these days and to be honest I probably would have gotten that EGR valve covered especially if you had a full main dealer service history.

The flywheel in theory could also be covered with a contribution from yourself..usually I would ask the customer to pay for the clutch kit and advise the manufacturer that you are paying for it. Ive been successful in the past at getting a flywheel covered when just outside warranty.

Maybe a call to customer care is needed before you go down the road of small claims court. Of all the manufacturers Ive worked for Opel seem quite reasonable when it comes to goodwill.

whiterebel

]]

Hellrazer wrote: »

Im in Opel these days and to be honest I probably would have gotten that EGR valve covered especially if you had a full main dealer service history.

The flywheel in theory could also be covered with a contribution from yourself..usually I would ask the customer to pay for the clutch kit and advise the manufacturer that you are paying for it. Ive been successful in the past at getting a flywheel covered when just outside warranty.

Maybe a call to customer care is needed before you go down the road of small claims court. Of all the manufacturers Ive worked for Opel seem quite reasonable when it comes to goodwill.

I’m fairly reasonable myself, but OPEL Customer service were absolutely abysmal when I contacted them about the EGR valve. The dealer wouldn’t contact them, and left me to it. Contrast that with Audi who asked me to pay 10% of the bill for an EGR, and the dealer took care of the labour. The dealer contacted Audi directly on my behalf. It was outside warranty by 3 months.

whiterebel

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

I suppose the reality from the dealers point of view is that you are outside of the warranty period. If they were to hand out €2200 repairs to everybody, or even just to loyal customers "just outside warranty" they wouldnt be in business for very long. Not trying to defend them but you must be able to see why they aren't more forthcoming with a repair.

Cars need maintenance, maintenance costs money, you've used the flywheel for the last 114k kms/ 4 years, do you not owe a contribution to it's repair? Would you be happy with a middle ground where you both contribute? I expect it would be a lot easier to strike a deal if you go this route, Opel provide the parts FOC and you cover labour or something?

I've no first hand experience with Opel as a manufacturer but some manufacturers (generally the ones plugging huge warranties) don't entertain goodwill at all and generally if you are going to try and challenge that, a plea from the owner of the car directly to the manufacturer will carry far more weight than the garage doing it on your behalf. The garage moan to the manufacturer for everyone so their complaints lose clout and get fobbed back at them a lot easier.

In all reality though, €2200 Is as good as a PFO price. If echo the above, a decent independent workshop should see this sorted for around 50% of the price i'd say and you'd be mad not to do the clutch while you're in there, even if it looks ok. Main dealers are always very expensive for this type of work and have a very take it or leave it attitude towards taking them on too.

After paying 30K for it, to be honest I don’t think I should have to contribute. Especially when the dealer tells you that if EGR or DMF happened during the 2 years manufacturer warranty it would be covered, irrespective of the mileage. Yet they won’t when it is 7k/14k over, despite being within the 5 years.

Jimmy.

Time to get legal perharps.

Hellrazer

whiterebel wrote: »

After paying 30K for it, to be honest I don’t think I should have to contribute. Especially when the dealer tells you that if EGR or DMF happened during the 2 years manufacturer warranty it would be covered, irrespective of the mileage. Yet they won’t when it is 7k/14k over, despite being within the 5 years.

But then at what stage does your warranty end? That's why there is a start and end date and a mileage limitation and any goodwill is at the manufacturers discretion. If you go in guns blazing and screaming that you are going legal you wont get anywhere but being reasonable to the dealer and manufacturer usually works wonders.
Trust me on that one.

Wildly Boaring

whiterebel wrote: »

After paying 30K for it, to be honest I don’t think I should have to contribute. Especially when the dealer tells you that if EGR or DMF happened during the 2 years manufacturer warranty it would be covered, irrespective of the mileage. Yet they won’t when it is 7k/14k over, despite being within the 5 years.

Seems perfectly unreasonable.
There's a warranty with a limit.
Before the limit stuff is covered.
After the limit stuff isn't.

Next time buy a car with a longer limit, sell before the limit is up or pay a nice fee to find a third party warranty that covers clutches. If one exists.

Clutch is a wearing part and yours is worn.

The cynic in me would even question why an unscrupulous massive manufacturer would design parts to go much past the warranty limit anyway.

Especially one that sells mostly to hire crowds and fleets.

Toyotafanboi

whiterebel wrote: »

]]

I’m fairly reasonable myself, but OPEL Customer service were absolutely abysmal when I contacted them about the EGR valve. The dealer wouldn’t contact them, and left me to it. Contrast that with Audi who asked me to pay 10% of the bill for an EGR, and the dealer took care of the labour. The dealer contacted Audi directly on my behalf. It was outside warranty by 3 months.

That would feed back into my original point, not that it matters, that Audis warranty is quite small by modern standards at only 3 years 90k kms, so dishing out a bit of goodwill in years 4/5 is easier for them and makes them look good.

whiterebel wrote: »

After paying 30K for it, to be honest I don’t think I should have to contribute. Especially when the dealer tells you that if EGR or DMF happened during the 2 years manufacturer warranty it would be covered, irrespective of the mileage. Yet they won’t when it is 7k/14k over, despite being within the 5 years.

The warranty is 5 years or 100k whichever is sooner, so it's not really within the 5 years because the 5 years doesn't exist since you passed 100k.

You can't really draw that comparison, sure everything is covered within the warranty period and when it's over it's over, otherwise as Bazz says, what's the point in outlining a warranty period if it's meaningless anyway.

I appreciate you paid a lot of money for it, but you've also put 4 years/ 114k of wear and tear on it, a cost split arrangement would be the best and most achievable solution IMO.

A lot of this boils down to your dealers enthusiast too as Hellrazer says. A good dealer will be willing to push deals upon you and the manufacturer to get work and to retain customers, a bad dealer simply won't care and will lose your business.

Toyotafanboi

Hellrazer wrote: »

But then at what stage does your warranty end? That's why there is a start and end date and a mileage limitation and any goodwill is at the manufacturers discretion. If you go in guns blazing and screaming that you are going legal you wont get anywhere but being reasonable to the dealer and manufacturer usually works wonders.
Trust me on that one.

I couldn't emphasise that enough.

Anyone who puts a genuine case in front of me even if they have no history with us etc, I will do my level best to get them a good resolution, it's good for both the dealer and the customer when we can reach an agreement.

Anyone who comes in kicking, screaming and threatening solicitors and SCC and demanding everything for nothing will get nothing but my back up.

Jimmy.

Toyotafanboi wrote: »

I couldn't emphasise that enough.

Anyone who puts a genuine case in front of me even if they have no history with us etc, I will do my level best to get them a good resolution, it's good for both the dealer and the customer when we can reach an agreement.

Anyone who comes in kicking, screaming and threatening solicitors and SCC and demanding everything for nothing will get nothing but my back up.

The buck don’t lie with you, you’re only a pawn on the board.

George Dalton

Jimmy. wrote: »

The buck don’t lie with you, you’re only a pawn on the board.

And very often the pawn makes the first move of the game.

Jimmy.

George Dalton wrote: »

And very often the pawn makes the first move of the game.

And dies first :pac:

gate1

Its fairly simple really, bring the car to an independent garage and get the DMF and clutch replaced. The clutch sits right beside the DMF so it pointless not replacing both at the same time.

If you're driving a diesel you are going to have to put up with this as all diesels are the same. They all go in time, some at 100k km , others at 200k km, its the luck of the draw. The DMF is not made to last forever! It is designed to dampen down vibrations in a diesel enging and make gear changes smoother.

bazz26

Or just buy an automatic that doesn't have a clutch.

gate1

bazz26 wrote: »

Or just buy an automatic that doesn't have a clutch.

Correct

In the last year there's been a few people on work that have suffered the dreaded DMF failure,
I take great pleasure in reminding them about the money they save on the cheap tax 🀣😂

Wildly Boaring

BrownFinger wrote: »

In the last year there's been a few people on work that have suffered the dreaded DMF failure,
I take great pleasure in reminding them about the money they save on the cheap tax 🀣😂

Ah here some of us drive diesels for the economy.
I'd love a 2.0 litre 200 BHP petrol but instead drive 2.0 180 BHP diesel. At least 1/3 better on juice.
So for say 30 to 35k miles min it's over a grand a year cheaper on juice. Couple of hundred on tax doesn't come into it when you look at petrols being cheaper day 1.
Last year nearer 50 k miles. Be hard to keep in petrol

Ah I know but the people I personally know, don't,
I've a 2.0 petrol and when I tell them that the tax is 710 they nearly **** themselves.
A week later they are paying 300 for a glow plug or 1700 for a dmf and clutch but they paying **** all to run it.............

whiterebel

Ok, to put this one to bed. Email sent off to the dealer expressing dissatisfaction and suggesting I may take a run under the Small Claims Court. I believe if people had used this against certain manufacturers during the turbo issues, it may have started an avalanche of claims and changed their attitude considerably. Look at the difference in VWs attitude in Europe vs USA when it comes to the emissions. It's a pity we don't have class action lawsuits. Anyway, I digress.....

SCC takes about 6 week usually.
I'm flat out working from one end of the country to the other. I need the car.
My son is sitting his driving test in 3 weeks. He needs the car.

I contacted George Dalton, and they replaced DMF and clutch on Wednesday. Half of the original Opel quotation, the one without the 20% discount.
Took the full day from 9am until almost 6pm. Replacement car given for the day. Twice I've dealt with Daltons, and they are brilliant to deal with.

From the experience I take;
Pros:
Daltons - terrific to deal with.
An offer of help from an unexpected source. Restored my faith in human nature, tried their best, but couldn't get Opel to budge.

Cons:
Opel. Again. Buy one? Never again. Too many horror stories when you go looking. Customer service appalling.
Non-auto diesels. Particularly Opel.
The dealer.
Finding out that Mapfre do the extra 3 years "warranty" on Opel. Just look them up on this forum to see how great they are. I've learned my lesson, check to see if it is a factory warranty and look into all the T&Cs.

Sin é.

Andrewf20

Was looking at an insignia as a next car. As time goes on I'm hearing more bad than good when it comes to Opel. The dmfs are a common theme with unreliability. What's people's experience of the petrol models? 2012 time frame I'm thinking.

gate1

whiterebel wrote: »

Ok, to put this one to bed. Email sent off to the dealer expressing dissatisfaction and suggesting I may take a run under the Small Claims Court. I believe if people had used this against certain manufacturers during the turbo issues, it may have started an avalanche of claims and changed their attitude considerably. Look at the difference in VWs attitude in Europe vs USA when it comes to the emissions. It's a pity we don't have class action lawsuits. Anyway, I digress.....

SCC takes about 6 week usually.
I'm flat out working from one end of the country to the other. I need the car.
My son is sitting his driving test in 3 weeks. He needs the car.

I contacted George Dalton, and they replaced DMF and clutch on Wednesday. Half of the original Opel quotation, the one without the 20% discount.
Took the full day from 9am until almost 6pm. Replacement car given for the day. Twice I've dealt with Daltons, and they are brilliant to deal with.

From the experience I take;
Pros:
Daltons - terrific to deal with.
An offer of help from an unexpected source. Restored my faith in human nature, tried their best, but couldn't get Opel to budge.

Cons:
Opel. Again. Buy one? Never again. Too many horror stories when you go looking. Customer service appalling.
Non-auto diesels. Particularly Opel.
The dealer.
Finding out that Mapfre do the extra 3 years "warranty" on Opel. Just look them up on this forum to see how great they are. I've learned my lesson, check to see if it is a factory warranty and look into all the T&Cs.

Sin é.

Glad to hear you got it sorted in the end.

gate1

Andrewf20 wrote: »

Was looking at an insignia as a next car. As time goes on I'm hearing more bad than good when it comes to Opel. The dmfs are a common theme with unreliability. What's people's experience of the petrol models? 2012 time frame I'm thinking.

DMFS are also fitted to some petrol engine cars. E.G. MERCEDES-BENZ And BMW. Not sure if they are fitted to petrol opel cars (i would be supprised somehow).

In terms of reliability I can say that I have driven Opel cars for over 30 years and never had a problem with any of them. They were all opel kadetts, a straw, zafiras and vectras. Never had an Insignia.


You might also find it difficult to get a petrol 2012 insignia in Ireland as they were always sold in a diesel version.

whiterebel

Wouldn't you know it. Received an email from the dealer to offer to take 50% off the cost of the repair. It would have made it a bit cheaper than Daltons, but I would prefer to give them the business anyway.

whiterebel

Wouldn't you know it. Received an email from the dealer to offer to take 50% off the cost of the repair. It would have made it a bit cheaper than Daltons, but I would prefer to give them the business anyway.

Esel

See will they pay half of your Dalton's bill. You might get something anyway.

whiterebel

Esel wrote: »

See will they pay half of your Dalton's bill. You might get something anyway.

Even I wouldn’t be that brass necked.