Assisted Suicide

mzungu

A recent study found that Americans are slightly more accepting of suicide today than they were in the 1980s. However, the vast majority still disapprove, but many will allow it in cases where a person is suffering from an incurable disease. Back in the 1980s 46.9% agreed with assisted suicide in those circumstances, that has now risen to 61.4%.

Interestingly, researchers believe the increased acceptance is down to a more educated population. They suggest that acceptability of suicide is greater among the highly educated (could also be the conclusion of other studies although I am not sure).

Thoughts?

Link: https://psmag.com/news/americans-attitudes-toward-suicide-are-softening

Lorddrakul

I think in a civilised world, if a person is in full possession of their faculties and makes the decision that their quality of life is such that they no longer wish to carry on living, then it is cruel to make them do so.

Furthermore, it is immature as a society to seek to punish someone who provides assistance to a person in such a situation if they have a reduced capacity.

I think as we mature as a society, we will come to see this as acceptable, so long as there are safeguards there, as well as support and assistance to ensure that people are making and informed choice.

mzungu

Lorddrakul wrote: »

I think in a civilised world, if a person is in full possession of their faculties and makes the decision that their quality of life is such that they no longer wish to carry on living, then it is cruel to make them do so.

Furthermore, it is immature as a society to seek to punish someone who provides assistance to a person in such a situation if they have a reduced capacity.

I think as we mature as a society, we will come to see this as acceptable, so long as there are safeguards there, as well as support and assistance to ensure that people are making and informed choice.

I agree. It makes little sense to allow people to suffer needlessly if they wish to exit at an earlier stage. The question is should it also need to extended to those with chronic mental health illnesses

At the start of the summer, the worlds oldest working scientist Dr David Goodall made headlines when he availed of the option to die with dignity in Basle. By turning a wheel he administered a lethal injection into his arm (listening to Beethoven as he did it). It was his belief that everybody over middle age should have the right to be assisted in ending their life when they choose. Even if they have absolutely nothing wrong with them. In one sense you could say that it gives everybody autonomy, in another you could also argue that it could cheapen life.

Nevertheless, assisted suicide for the sick should be brought in, but it may take a while before we see it here. As it stands, I believe the state stops people travelling abroad for assisted suicide (the Marie Fleming case), this is wrong and should be rectified.

Fathom

mzungu wrote: »

They suggest that acceptability of suicide is greater among the highly educated

Not surprising.

byhookorbycrook

I take a medication that can have ,at best,seriously disabling side effects and at worse death. I'm also a horse owner. It's odd that, if his life gets badly impaired, that he can be destroyed, but mine can't.

wexie

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I take a medication that can have ,at best,seriously disabling side effects and at worse death. I'm also a horse owner. It's odd that, if his life gets badly impaired, that he can be destroyed, but mine can't.

And not only that....for the horse it would be considered to be the 'humane' thing to do....Wrap your head around that one

Fathom

In America state laws differ. "On October 27, 1997, Oregon enacted the Death with Dignity Act which allows terminally-ill Oregonians to end their lives through the voluntary self-administration of lethal medications, expressly prescribed by a physician for that purpose." California's physician-assisted suicide law is overturned — for now.

mzungu

Fathom wrote: »

In America state laws differ. "On October 27, 1997, Oregon enacted the Death with Dignity Act which allows terminally-ill Oregonians to end their lives through the voluntary self-administration of lethal medications, expressly prescribed by a physician for that purpose." California's physician-assisted suicide law is overturned — for now.

IIRC it is still listed as homicide in American law (open to correction on this) if a person assists another in dying (lay person or physician). However, the framework allows for lawful homicide (in certain places) and would come under justifiable or excusable homicide. In other countries, this is definitely not the case and it is a legal minefield (understandably). It is legal in some countries, but in the majority it is not. Not yet anyway. Hopefully soon though.

Graces7

it is all too easy to abuse.

Black Swan

In America there have been frequent legal disputes over when do you turn off the machines that may be keeping flat-liner's bodies alive?

Fathom

Black Swan wrote: »

In America there have been frequent legal disputes over when do you turn off the machines that may be keeping flat-liner's bodies alive?

US Supreme Court cases?

mzungu

Black Swan wrote: »

In America there have been frequent legal disputes over when do you turn off the machines that may be keeping flat-liner's bodies alive?

Fathom wrote: »

US Supreme Court cases?

Does this happen in cases where the family want to keep the person alive, even if it was against their wishes?

I have no issue with assisted suicide, as long as appropriate checks and balances are in place.

Fathom

mzungu wrote: »

Does this happen in cases where the family want to keep the person alive, even if it was against their wishes?

Sometimes family either wishes to keep patient alive, or unplug. Special religious, social, and political interests groups get involved too, either for or against. Then there are state laws that affect decisions of this sort, either for or against, and their interpretation by courts, law enforcement, city, county, state administration's policies and procedures. The list goes on.

mzungu

Fathom wrote: »

Sometimes family either wishes to keep patient alive, or unplug. Special religious, social, and political interests groups get involved too, either for or against. Then there are state laws that affect decisions of this sort, either for or against, and their interpretation by courts, law enforcement, city, county, state administration's policies and procedures. The list goes on.

The issue still gets used as a political football. A great shame. When this happens the patient at the centre of it fades to the background while special interest groups take centre stage.

Fathom

mzungu wrote: »

The issue still gets used as a political football. A great shame. When this happens the patient at the centre of it fades to the background while special interest groups take centre stage.

Like war? Patient become collateral damage?

mzungu

Fathom wrote: »

Like war? Patient become collateral damage?

Pretty much yes. The individual can sometimes become something of a background player.

Fathom

mzungu wrote: »

Pretty much yes. The individual can sometimes become something of a background player.

More so. Approaching 2020.

mzungu

Fathom wrote: »

More so. Approaching 2020.

Agreed.

Fathom

Sad commentary.

mzungu

Fathom wrote: »

Sad commentary.

We haven't heard the last of it, not by a long shot. Although an issue such as this is a slow burner (just from observation) and it won't ever be any kind of massive social movement for obvious reasons.

jaxxx

A dog is suffering from an untreatable condition which reduces its quality life to all but zero: euthanise.

A human is suffering from a similar condition: nah sorry mate, gotta postpone your misery because of.. .. .. reasons, ya know?



Oh we are a bright lot aren't we.

mzungu

jaxxx wrote: »

A dog is suffering from an untreatable condition which reduces its quality life to all but zero: euthanise.

A human is suffering from a similar condition: nah sorry mate, gotta postpone your misery because of.. .. .. reasons, ya know?



Oh we are a bright lot aren't we.

It is a delicate topic for sure. But slowly moves are being made to introduce it it the USA, but I think it could be a while before it would be considered on these shores.

Fathom

mzungu wrote: »

It is a delicate topic for sure. But slowly moves are being made to introduce it it the USA, but I think it could be a while before it would be considered on these shores.

State of Oregon. The Death with Dignity Act (DWDA).

mzungu

Fathom wrote: »

State of Oregon. The Death with Dignity Act (DWDA).

A good start!

54and56

mzungu wrote: »

It is a delicate topic for sure. But slowly moves are being made to introduce it it the USA, but I think it could be a while before it would be considered on these shores.

Divorce, equal marriage and abortion have all been approved by referrendum, assisted suicide, for me, is the last great reform needed to truly become a civilised society and a real republic.

Fathom

54&56 wrote: »

Divorce, equal marriage and abortion have all been approved by referrendum, assisted suicide, for me, is the last great reform needed to truly become a civilised society and a real republic.

There's religious opposition to assisted suicide. Difficult to overcome for those interested in this.

54and56

Fathom wrote: »

There's religious opposition to assisted suicide. Difficult to overcome for those interested in this.

There was significant religious opposition to divorce, equal marriage and particularly abortion.

My view is that religious opposition to Assisted Suicide, which would be an act of kindness to assuage intolerable pain and suffering and thus allow people of clear mind some dignity in death, would be far less than it was for abortion once the merits of such a change were presented in a clear fact based manner.

Archbishop Desmond Tutu is a good example of how caring rather than fundamentalist christian's can see beyond the black and white of simplistic commandments to see how allowing terminally ill people some comfort at the end of their life can actually be the (modern) christian thing to do.

Terminally ill people ‘should have right to choose a dignified assisted death’, writes archbishop on his 85th birthday.

Fathom

In the States today there are exceptions like Oregon. It will take decades for all 50.

tea and coffee

https://www.thejournal.ie/dutch-doctor-case-euthanasia-dementia-4805617-Sep2019/

Very interesting development. Of course Euthanasia already legal in Netherlands but in ways, a welcome development. The abuse aspect of such cases (not in this case but the potential for abuse) is however still a factor

Fathom

tea and coffee wrote: »

The abuse aspect of such cases (not in this case but the potential for abuse) is however still a factor

Questions how it should be regulated if allowed.

Graces7

Look up Liverpool Pathway and the various reactions to it. Any such plan is so easily abused. And was. I am deeply suspicious of old folk being given end of life injections" to make it easier for them"

Fathom

Graces7 wrote: »

Look up Liverpool Pathway and the various reactions to it. Any such plan is so easily abused. And was. I am deeply suspicious of old folk being given end of life injections" to make it easier for them"

Dr. Murad Jacob Kevorkian (May 26, 1928 – June 3, 2011) was an American pathologist and euthanasia proponent in Michigan. Convicted of murder in 1999. Anti-euthanasia media and citizens called him Dr. Death. The debate about his actions continues, depending upon your position.

54and56

Graces7 wrote: »

Look up Liverpool Pathway and the various reactions to it. Any such plan is so easily abused. And was. I am deeply suspicious of old folk being given end of life injections" to make it easier for them"

My view is that the benefit to all of having control, should they so choose, over the end of their life, outweighs the mitigated (but nevertheless potential) risk of abuse to the few.

If I ever get a horrible terminal illness like motor neurone disease I would take great comfort from the fact that I could choose to avoid the final and most painful inevitable descent into death and not have to put my family through that torture also.

mzungu

There are, rightly, very stringent checks and balances in countries that facilitate assisted dying. There is no "easy" way to abuse such a system.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/110819347#Comment_110819347

A dog or a horse cannot choose. We can and many do.

Graces7

I honestly could never ever ask anyone to help me in suicide. It is a huge burden to put on someone.

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119538583#Comment_119538583

Maybe put yourself in the shoes of someone terminally ill who is desperate to put an end to their pain but isn't physically able to complete the task themselves?

In that scenario would you still view it as a burden on yourself to be asked rather than an opportunity to help someone you love in their greatest moment of need?

I can't ever imagine asking someone to help me if I found myself in a situation where I wanted to commit suicide due to being terminally ill but if I did I'd ask the person who loved me most and would hope they'd do the same should the roles be reversed.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635330#Comment_119635330

You are asking re killing someone. No. Nor would I or will I ever ask that of anyone for myself. That is too great a burden.

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119644691#Comment_119644691

Easy enough to take the high road when you haven't walked in the shoes of someone dying of unbearable terminal pain.

Fathom

Across the pond the State of Oregon has provisions for this form of treatment. But it is considered a last resort, after the exhaustion of all other forms of medical and psychological treatment. There are provisions elsewhere, too, and have been studied. One of many sources:

Gerson, SM, el al, Assisted Dying and Palliative Care in Three Jurisdictions: Flanders, Oregon, and Quebec. Annuals of Palliative Medicine 10(3), 3528-3539, 2021.

MOD: We can study, source, and discuss assisted suicide on this forum in general, but we must be cautious not to encourage it for specific persons we know. That falls under giving medical advice, which is against this site’s rules.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119646257#Comment_119646257

Aah but you have no idea about my life experiences. You really don't and just ? assume that because my decisions do not agree with yours that that is so. All my life decisions are arrived at though long hard experience . There have been times of greatr temptation. GREAT temptation but I know I made the right choices to endure and survive. And would do again . And no not "easy".

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119751096#Comment_119751096

My only reference was "unbearable terminal pain" which I hope you are not equating your experiences to.

I'm arguing someone with unbearable terminal pain should, in a fully informed and medically validated manner, be allowed to choose to avoid such a horrible and undignified death.

I'm NOT talking about other scenarios where someone might feel compelled or heavily tempted to commit suicide and in fact I would argue we need to do more as a society to help people reach out and seek help for whatever problems they are having long before it gets to a point where they are contemplating suicide.

There is however no equivalence between someone who desperately wants to live but is terminally ill and doesn't want to die in a painful and undignified manner and someone who might have a very troubling but not life threatening issue to deal with. IMHO one deserves the right to choose the manner and timing of their death whereas the other person needs support and counselling and whatever else may be required to help them deal with the non life threatening problems they face.

Graces7

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119635330#Comment_119635330

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/119646257#Comment_119646257

You do not know me or what I have endured or done or not done in my long life . Easy to point a finger ... I speak with experience not theory and having the deepest respect for human life and the law is not " taking the high road" . Many in extremis later are thankful someone did not facilitate suicide.

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120204377#Comment_120204377

Three observations:-

1. What about those who have to suffer later than necessary and at the end of their torture would have been thankful if someone had been allowed to facilitate their suicide?
2. Although some in extremis later may be thankful someone did not facilitate their suicide there are also many who's suicide was facilitated are were glad to have had that option.
3. If those in extremis who later were thankful someone did not facilitate their suicide had in fact been facilitated they wouldn't have any later regrets as they'd be dead.

Graces7

Casuistry.

slither12

What about assisted suicide in the case of a psychiatric illness? Canada was supposed to extend it next month but have delayed it until 2024 due to concerns that there ween't enough safeguards.

Fathom

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120287198#Comment_120287198

2 February 2023 MAID eligibility temporary exclusion for only “mental illness” extended until 17 March 2024 per Canada.ca.

Recommendations of the Expert Panel in MAID and Mental Illness, Appendix A, parl.ca give an extensive list of recommendations that may have affected the above delay.

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120287198#Comment_120287198

Right now I'd be far less comfortable with assisted suicide in the case of psychiatric illness for three reasons:-

1. I (thankfully) haven't any personal experience or have known anyone so affected by psychiatric illness that they wanted to commit suicide but I am aware it is one of the key reasons people take their own lives.
2. Psychiatric illness's are not in and of themselves physically "terminal" as far as I'm aware but then I'm really not very well informed in that regard.
3. Psychiatric illness and its severity, which might have to be assessed and judged, before someone could seek an assisted suicide would require far more subjective judgement than someone with a terminal illness who's prognosis is well understood and accepted amongst medical experts.

The above does not mean I think people with severe psychiatric illness are suffering any less than those with non psychiatric terminal illnesses and it does not mean I think it's impossible for a safe protocol to be developed to allow those with the most severe and life debilitating psychiatric illnesses, with little or no possibility of improvement, to have a safe pathway to a release from such suffering via assisted suicide.

Emblematic

I think we need to be careful employing animal analogies as some were doing earlier in the thread.

Yes animals are put down to alleviate extreme suffering but they are also hunted for sport, farmed and then put down in order to be eaten or put down when not economically viable.

I'm not opposed to assisted suicide in an ideal world but I do see it as potentially open to abuse in practice.

54and56

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120375450#Comment_120375450

If you replace the word "animals" with "much loved pets" it'll give the correct context when referencing animal analogies.

Emblematic

https://www.boards.ie/discussion/comment/120397586#Comment_120397586

Yes, I guess so.