Bleeding oil burner!!!

BusterJohnny

I recently moved my oil tank, with a little oil still left in it approx 8 ft further down the garden and had to add on to the existing pipe. I joined the 2 lengths of pipes together and reattached it to the oil tank once more with no leaks. I then bleed my boiler by taking off the bleed screw and resetting the burner to fire. Oil and air come out but the burner cuts off. It won't fire up. So I think there is too much air in it perhaps? Bleeding doesn't seem to resolve the issue..Any thoughts anyone?

Calahonda52

maybe some water as well in the pipe since u moved tank: i presume it is still high enough, you need to get a good flow in the bleeding valve

BusterJohnny

Calahonda52 wrote: »

maybe some water as well in the pipe since u moved tank: i presume it is still high enough, you need to get a good flow in the bleeding valve

Tank is the same height or even higher than before. Maybe some water has gone into the pipe. Doubt it though. I was careful not to allow that. Was looking online and it said it might need a "suction pump" to get the oil flowing again....

Roen

How many times did you hit the reset? I drained my tank to clean all the crap out and it took about 30 hits to draw the oil in.

BusterJohnny

Roen wrote: »

How many times did you hit the reset? I drained my tank to clean all the crap out and it took about 30 hits to draw the oil in.

I did it 5 or 6 times. Was afraid to do it more in case I would do any damage. There is a sticker on it saying "Max reset 2 times" or to that affect. Boiler is probably 7 or 8 yrs old.

agusta

Maximum 2 times if you are getting no oil.The oil is the lubricant for the pump.If no oil coming through you can damage the pump.If you have oil and air coming through,it should be nearly about to fire.But it depends,how much oil have you in the tank

BusterJohnny

agusta wrote: »

Maximum 2 times if you are getting no oil.The oil is the lubricant for the pump.If no oil coming through you can damage the pump.If you have oil and air coming through,it should be nearly about to fire.But it depends,how much oil have you in the tank

There is about half a foot from the bottom of the tank. I wanted to get the boiler up and running before I ordered more. When I open the bleed nut, when the boiler kicked in a little oil came through but not much. The burner was running fine before I did the moving around. The burner ran for a little at first but I imagine this was what oil was in the old pipe burning out...

agusta

You dont really have enough head of oil in the tank.You have air in the line.A suction pump will pull it through or else fill more oil in the tank and bleed as normal.Is the fitting you used to join the copper pipe going to be over ground or underground

BusterJohnny

agusta wrote: »

You dont really have enough head of oil in the tank.You have air in the line.A suction pump will pull it through or else fill more oil in the tank and bleed as normal.Is the fitting you used to join the copper pipe going to be over ground or underground

It will be under the ground. I dug down originally and found the old pipe. I bought bout 3 metres of new pipe and replaced from the tank back the 3 metres. So I am down over a foot from ground level. I got a 10 mm fitting in the hardware store and joined the old and new pipe using plumbing tape. Do you think if I top up the tank it will solve the problem?

99nsr125

Crack open the bleed nut on front of the boiler and then press reset

Close bleed nut when air bubbles disappear and just oil

Burner will burn then

I think it's a15mm from memory

BusterJohnny wrote: »

I recently moved my oil tank, with a little oil still left in it approx 8 ft further down the garden and had to add on to the existing pipe. I joined the 2 lengths of pipes together and reattached it to the oil tank once more with no leaks. I then bleed my boiler by taking off the bleed screw and resetting the burner to fire. Oil and air come out but the burner cuts off. It won't fire up. So I think there is too much air in it perhaps? Bleeding doesn't seem to resolve the issue..Any thoughts anyone?

agusta

BusterJohnny wrote: »

It will be under the ground. I dug down originally and found the old pipe. I bought bout 3 metres of new pipe and replaced from the tank back the 3 metres. So I am down over a foot from ground level. I got a 10 mm fitting in the hardware store and joined the old and new pipe using plumbing tape. Do you think if I top up the tank it will solve the problem?

Yes it should solve the problem.i cant say for certain without seeing how high the bottom of the tank is above the burner and how far away the tank is.You cant just put a oil joint under ground.A permanent means of access for inspection of the joint must be provided.

jmreire

agusta wrote: »

Yes it should solve the problem.i cant say for certain without seeing how high the bottom of the tank is above the burner and how far away the tank is.You cant just put a oil joint under ground.A permanent means of access for inspection of the joint must be provided.

If you have moved the tank, and disturbed the contents, you may have a problem. Most people when installing tanks either place them level horizontally, or else slanted down wards towards the outlet pipe, to get the maximum from the tank. Its a pretty common way to do it, but its wrong. The tank should always be placed slanted down wards at the back, away from the outlet. A few inches off the horizontal will do. This is because condensation will build up in a tank, (and in metal tanks especially ) you can get flaking rust particles and grime etc. All this will tend to settle at the bottom, at the lowest point so this should be as far away as possible from the outlet. It can be difficult to get the oil flowing just by gravity feed, especially if the level is pretty low to start with, so a suction pump is a good idea for this. Maybe your local friendly mechanic will have a suction pump ( used for draining engine oil) that he may loan to you? Another poster on here mentioned that you can damage the pump if there is water etc in the oil, That's good advice, when you do get it flowing drain a few litres into a container, until you are sure that it's pure clean oil coming out.

BusterJohnny

jmreire wrote: »

If you have moved the tank, and disturbed the contents, you may have a problem. Most people when installing tanks either place them level horizontally, or else slanted down wards towards the outlet pipe, to get the maximum from the tank. Its a pretty common way to do it, but its wrong. The tank should always be placed slanted down wards at the back, away from the outlet. A few inches off the horizontal will do. This is because condensation will build up in a tank, (and in metal tanks especially ) you can get flaking rust particles and grime etc. All this will tend to settle at the bottom, at the lowest point so this should be as far away as possible from the outlet. It can be difficult to get the oil flowing just by gravity feed, especially if the level is pretty low to start with, so a suction pump is a good idea for this. Maybe your local friendly mechanic will have a suction pump ( used for draining engine oil) that he may loan to you? Another poster on here mentioned that you can damage the pump if there is water etc in the oil, That's good advice, when you do get it flowing drain a few litres into a container, until you are sure that it's pure clean oil coming out.

Thanks so much for taking time to reply! The new platform I built for the tank is perfectly level so I will definitely take your advice! Put a 2x1 under the front to put the oil falling away from the outlet. I will open the joining where the hose is attached to the tank and clean the filter which is on most tanks now. My tank is plastic as well forgot to mention. I will get a fill of oil as well. The joining is marked on the wall and I plan to put a layer of sand over all the pipe I have exposed before back filling to protect it from being punctured or damaged. One question. If I get a suction pump, where do I attach it to??

jmreire

BusterJohnny wrote: »

Thanks so much for taking time to reply! The new platform I built for the tank is perfectly level so I will definitely take your advice! Put a 2x1 under the front to put the oil falling away from the outlet. I will open the joining where the hose is attached to the tank and clean the filter which is on most tanks now. My tank is plastic as well forgot to mention. I will get a fill of oil as well. The joining is marked on the wall and I plan to put a layer of sand over all the pipe I have exposed before back filling to protect it from being punctured or damaged. One question. If I get a suction pump, where do I attach it to??

At the outlet from the tank, you should have a turn on/off tap, and then a small filter. Replace this with a new one. On the burner side, you will have the feed pipe ( coming from the tank ) this should have a safety switch fitted, maybe 18" away from the burner pump, this is designed to automatically turn off the oil supply if a fire should start. You will need to get the suction pump as near to the pump as you possibly can on the feed line. Once you get it there, and you have a full tank, gravity will do the rest. The reason you have a problem now is that air has gotten into the pipe, and this will have to be removed. The vacuum pump will do that in a few mins. Any motor factors should have these vacuum pumps, there is a brand called I think "PETA" which will do the job ( and if you are into DIY with your car, it will drain the engine oil for you too, without having to get underneath the car... LOL ) After filling the tank, let it settle for a few hours ( the more the merrier ) to allow any sediment to settle.
Good Luck !!!

seamus

Does the burner fire at all?

I had a similar issue this year; ran out of oil because I wasn't expecting that cold snap. When I topped up the tank, I had to bleed the pump, grand, no problem.

Then when I reset/restarted the burner, the pump ran, but the burner never fired and the pump shut down after 20 seconds.

Turned out that the photocell had blown. Maybe this is a common issue when you have to reset. New photocell, €8, job done.

You can check whether the photocell is the issue by opening the control unit and removing the photocell, then starting the burner. It should fire and then shut down after a few seconds when it doesn't detect the flame.

Lumen

seamus wrote: »

It should fire and then shut down after a few seconds when it doesn't detect the flame.

Although this is the same behaviour that you see when you're still bleeding the system. If you don't have a pump, you have to repeatedly fire the boiler to draw oil a bit further along the pipe. I believe this slowly knackers some part of the system and is a bad idea.

Relatedly, last year I moved my oil tank a few metres up the garden as I believed that a lack of gravity feed was making the bleeding difficult (used to take half an hour when I ran out of oil). After a load of work to move the tank, it turned out that the filter on the outlet was heavily blocked.

So I could have largely resolved the problem by replacing the filter, rather than spending a few weekends clearing hedging, digging holes, and pouring concrete. Still, it's a better job and the tank is nicely out of the way now. :rolleyes:

agusta

BusterJohnny wrote: »

Thanks so much for taking time to reply! The new platform I built for the tank is perfectly level so I will definitely take your advice! Put a 2x1 under the front to put the oil falling away from the outlet. I will open the joining where the hose is attached to the tank and clean the filter which is on most tanks now. My tank is plastic as well forgot to mention. I will get a fill of oil as well. The joining is marked on the wall and I plan to put a layer of sand over all the pipe I have exposed before back filling to protect it from being punctured or damaged. One question. If I get a suction pump, where do I attach it to??

The base for an oil tank should be "level and flat",not tilted.The oil tank should sit level.The oil outlet in the tank is raised 30mm plus to allow and water or sludge deposits to sit below the outlet.If you put a 2 x1 at front of tank,when the tank is filled,the tank will sag in the middle with the weight of oil and form cracks on the oil tank slowly over time,shortening its life span.and at risk of leaking.1000 litres kerosene= 840kg approx

ps, the tilted base was used for the old steel tanks where the tank outlet was at the very bottom

agusta

i remove the oil flexible hose from the pump on the burner and connect the suction pump onto the flexible hose.I have a fitting made up for this.if the suction pump has a rubber hose it might slip on over the 1/4M side of oil flexible hose too.

jmreire

agusta wrote: »

The base for an oil tank should be "level and flat",not tilted.The oil tank should sit level.The oil outlet in the tank is raised 30mm plus to allow and water or sludge deposits to sit below the outlet.If you put a 2 x1 at front of tank,when the tank is filled,the tank will sag in the middle with the weight of oil and form cracks on the oil tank slowly over time,shortening its life span.and at risk of leaking.

ps, the tilted base was used for the old steel tanks where the tank outlet was at the very bottom

The whole point is to make sure that the crud which accumulates at the bottom of the tank does not get drawn into the system. The tank in my place is plastic and rests on two concrete block walls about 4' high. Between the tank and the walls there are 3 railway sleepers, and at one end there is a couple of 2x4's to raise the sleepers ( and of course the tank) In addition, the outlet on the tank is raised, which is standard now on plastic tanks as you say. So far in the 8 years I have used it, not once have I had a blocked pipe, but I also change the tank filter regularly.
To use the vacuum pump effectively, you need to attach it to the feed pipe as near to the pump on the burner as possible. Once you have got it flowing cleanly, gravity will do the rest after that.

agusta

jmreire wrote: »

The whole point is to make sure that the crud which accumulates at the bottom of the tank does not get drawn into the system. The tank in my place is plastic and rests on two concrete block walls about 4' high. Between the tank and the walls there are 3 railway sleepers, and at one end there is a couple of 2x4's to raise the sleepers ( and of course the tank) In addition, the outlet on the tank is raised, which is standard now on plastic tanks as you say. So far in the 8 years I have used it, not once have I had a blocked pipe, but I also change the tank filter regularly.
To use the vacuum pump effectively, you need to attach it to the feed pipe as near to the pump on the burner as possible. Once you have got it flowing cleanly, gravity will do the rest after that.

I agree with you totally about the suction pump.In a tank fitted correctly 50 plus litres stay below the outlet of the tank,more than enough.i have removed 20 year oil tanks with kerosene with only slight traces of sludge in the bottom.The main point of an oil tank is the oil tank safety and safety to the environment.Its against regulations to fit a tank on railway sleepers or 2x4 timber.it must be a concrete base,or a full base of concrete lentils

Jimmy.

The railway police regularly do inspections on oil tanks. They also check footings on concrete bases and lintels to see if they pass building regs.

jmreire

The base under my tank is concrete built, with 3 railway sleepers sandwiched between the tank and the concrete. To elevate one end of the tank, the sleepers are raised by about 2 " using planks. The tank is not resting on wooden structure, and it was already in place when I bought the house, 8 years ago and as it has been trouble free, I have not seen any reason to change it. BTW, it inside a well ventilated shed, so not exposed to the elements in any way. I can understand you finding a 20 year old tank with very little sediment or other contaminants on the bottom, especially in this Country, where generally, fuel is pretty good quality. But even so, tanks can become dirty and contaminated... one hotelier I know during that storm Ophelia, lost electric power, as did many others. So being prepared for contingencies, the generator was programmed to switch on automatically, which it did and worked fine for about 15 mins, then cut out, and despite repeated attempts, refuse to start again. The reason it stopped? Water had condensed in the fuel tank.Modern diesel engines will not tolerate any kind of contaminated fuel, and this was a generator which was regularly serviced. Where I have been working on tanks..for sure you will find crud in the bottom of the tanks..even new ones, and after only 6 mths. We always fit drain taps at the lowest end of the tank, and regularly remove the dirty fuel. Its the only way to keep them operational.

jmreire

Jimmy. wrote: »

The railway police regularly do inspections on oil tanks. They also check footings on concrete bases and lintels to see if they pass building regs.

Railway Police Jimmy? I didn't know that would be part of the police duties, but you live and learn, I guess.

agusta

Drain off valves are commonly used in the aviation industry too.As well as condensation, a very small percentage of water comes with the fuel.A domestic boiler technician test the oil tank for water and if present removes the water with a suction pump annually.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057550453

jmreire

agusta wrote: »

Drain off valves are commonly used in the aviation industry too.As well as condensation, a very small percentage of water comes with the fuel.A domestic boiler technician test the oil tank for water and if present removes the water with a suction pump annually.
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057550453

We used a special paste, which we painted on to the dip sticks, and it changed colour when it came into contact with water. But on a lighter note, I was in a airport at one time, pretty basic kind of place it was too. We were travelling on a Russian Ilyushin 76, and needed to refuel, so the crew stopped at this small regional airport. The fuel tankers duly appeared and re-filled the tanks. I was watching this going on with the engineer, and asked him how long it would be before we took off again. And he said, "Well, we have the usual paperwork to fill in and I think in about 4 hours we will leave. So I said WHAT????? 4 hours? does it take that long to fill in the forms? And he said, the forms? No max 20 - 30 mins, but it will take that long for the water in the fuel to settle in the bottom of the tanks. So we wait, then we open the drain valves, and when all the water has emptied, we will leave....so I asked him how they will check? and he replied, " We will collect it in glass containers, and the amount of water will show, so no sign of water in the container, all is OK and we go... Ryan Air would have been very welcome sight at that time !!!

agusta

4 hour for a refill is a long time alright.ya,i use the water seeking paste too,its good stuff