Just starting out

FutureGuy

Hi all, myself and my wife are just starting out on our journey which will hopefully result in a nice family home in the near future.

We have a number of questions starting out because the order in which we are supposed to do things is hazy. We are both heavily leaning towards a passive build and a lot of our investigation over the last few days have focused coming to this conclusion.

We know it means that the estimated cost is approximately 10-15% higher than a regular build.

1) When people say it costs e.g 130 euro/sq. ft to build a house, what does that actually include - does it include the site and does it include the following?

• Site investigation/survey including percolation
• Professional fees including design professionals, structural engineer
• Statutory fees – Planning – Building Control – Water service,
electricity, broadband/telephone line – Council development levies
• Finance charges (interest and mortgage protection)
• Legal costs
• Accommodation costs (rent while building)
• Insurance/warranties
• Shell build cost
• Insulation and airtightness
• Systems (heating, ventilation)
• Kitchens/Bathrooms/Fixtures/ Finishes
• Health & Safety
• Extras, e.g. well

It is builders finish or turn key? Who is able to tell you that information?

2) Who is our very first point of call to get this ball rolling. Is it an architect or is it a quantity surveyor?

3) We read a comment that one of the risks of building a passive house is the sheer number of different trades on site, one of whom may not understand the need for all the sealing work and who may puncture a membrane etc. Is there a site that lists trades-persons who are able to work on a passive build?

4) We have a site of land and between the savings and mortgage, we will have a total budget of about 200,000k (180k for build plus a contingency fund of 20k). We could probably get access to 300k but we have no appetite to have that type of mortgage. Sorry if this sounds stupid, but surely we could build a nice 3 bed with home office and decent spec for that money?

I'll probably have more questions as we continue our research, but this is great for now.

JimmyMW

FutureGuy wrote: »

Hi all, myself and my wife are just starting out on our journey which will hopefully result in a nice family home in the near future.

We have a number of questions starting out because the order in which we are supposed to do things is hazy. We are both heavily leaning towards a passive build and a lot of our investigation over the last few days have focused coming to this conclusion.

We know it means that the estimated cost is approximately 10-15% higher than a regular build.

1) When people say it costs e.g 130 euro/sq. ft to build a house, what does that actually include - does it include the site and does it include the following?

• Site investigation/survey including percolation
• Professional fees including design professionals, structural engineer
• Statutory fees – Planning – Building Control – Water service,
electricity, broadband/telephone line – Council development levies
• Finance charges (interest and mortgage protection)
• Legal costs
• Accommodation costs (rent while building)
• Insurance/warranties
• Shell build cost
• Insulation and airtightness
• Systems (heating, ventilation)
• Kitchens/Bathrooms/Fixtures/ Finishes
• Health & Safety
• Extras, e.g. well

It is builders finish or turn key? Who is able to tell you that information?

2) Who is our very first point of call to get this ball rolling. Is it an architect or is it a quantity surveyor?

3) We read a comment that one of the risks of building a passive house is the sheer number of different trades on site, one of whom may not understand the need for all the sealing work and who may puncture a membrane etc. Is there a site that lists trades-persons who are able to work on a passive build?

4) We have a site of land and between the savings and mortgage, we will have a total budget of about 200,000k (180k for build plus a contingency fund of 20k). We could probably get access to 300k but we have no appetite to have that type of mortgage. Sorry if this sounds stupid, but surely we could build a nice 3 bed with home office and decent spec for that money?

I'll probably have more questions as we continue our research, but this is great for now.

Figures like €130/ft2 normally only account for builders finish, with basic kitchen and sanitary ware included, no tiling or flooring usually, also will not include for most items in your list above, items from your list which are normally included are listed below. I would suggest this is middle of the road type of money with passive construction being well in excess of this figure.

• Insurance/warranties - You will also need your own insurance besides the builders insurance
• Shell build cost
• Insulation and airtightness
• Systems (heating, ventilation)
• Kitchens/Bathrooms/Fixtures/ Finishes - Basic Only
• Health & Safety

Also I would think that your understanding of passive is incorrect as you listed above "Heating System" which will not be in a passive house, you are prob thinking of an "A" rated house.

Im afraid your total budget @€;200k will fall far short of what you will require by the time you have all professional fees etc paid for and the house in a livable condition with furniture etc. Realistically I would think if you build a modest house of pretty standard construction and design you might get most of the way there with the €300-350k but no way €200k including all fees and connections etc

Some recent threads below should give you a feel for costs particularly unrealistic ones
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057904358
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057860595&page=2

FutureGuy

JimmyMW wrote: »

Figures like €130/ft2 normally only account for builders finish, with basic kitchen and sanitary ware included, no tiling or flooring usually, also will not include for most items in your list above, items from your list which are normally included are listed below. I would suggest this is middle of the road type of money with passive construction being well in excess of this figure.

• Insurance/warranties - You will also need your own insurance besides the builders insurance
• Shell build cost
• Insulation and airtightness
• Systems (heating, ventilation)
• Kitchens/Bathrooms/Fixtures/ Finishes - Basic Only
• Health & Safety

Also I would think that your understanding of passive is incorrect as you listed above "Heating System" which will not be in a passive house, you are prob thinking of an "A" rated house.

Im afraid your total budget @€;200k will fall far short of what you will require by the time you have all professional fees etc paid for and the house in a livable condition with furniture etc. Realistically I would think if you build a modest house of pretty standard construction and design you might get most of the way there with the €300-350k but no way €200k including all fees and connections etc

Some recent threads below should give you a feel for costs particularly unrealistic ones
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057904358
https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057860595&page=2

I appreciate the honesty and feedback. Just to claify, I just pulled the list in q1 from a website that was for a regular build so the heating is not a factor here.

Just to say, we would be looking at maybe 1300sqft.

JimmyMW

FutureGuy wrote: »

I appreciate the honesty and feedback. Just to claify, I just pulled the list in q1 from a website that was for a regular build so the heating is not a factor here.

Sorry for being so direct, however having just come out the other end of building myself, direct labor, I had a much bigger budget than yourself (similar size house) and had the ability to cover some of the roles myself as I am in the architectural design business (albeit commercial design), building is stressful at the best of time without the added issue of getting extra funding in the middle of the whole thing. Sorry to be bursting the bubble but its reality I'm afraid.

FutureGuy

JimmyMW wrote: »

Sorry for being so direct, however having just come out the other end of building myself, direct labor, I had a much bigger budget than yourself (similar size house) and had the ability to cover some of the roles myself as I am in the architectural design business (albeit commercial design), building is stressful at the best of time without the added issue of getting extra funding in the middle of the whole thing. Sorry to be bursting the bubble but its reality I'm afraid.

No problem, I'd rather my expectations being put in check now than later. When you say it is a similar house size, is that 1300 sq ft ground floor or both?

I didn't expect to be so wrong - maybe out by 10-20%

FutureGuy

I look at things like this...

http://www.passivehouseplans.ie

And I wonder where the hell im going wrong. The house we want to build is nowhere near that size.

JimmyMW

FutureGuy wrote: »

No problem, I'd rather my expectations being put in check now than later. When you say it is a similar house size, is that 1300 sq ft ground floor or both?

I didn't expect to be so wrong - maybe out by 10-20%

Sorry I got mixed up with another thread, mine is 1800sq ft in total. I would think you will struggle to get 3 bedrooms, an office and a big living space into 1300sq ft, if you think of it a 4 bed semi from the 90's would have that kinda sq footage but the individual spaces would be tight. You would want to budget €1500/m2 for just the house and then furniture, curtains/blinds, external finishes, all connection fees, contributions and professional fees extra. That would be a good guide to look at the feasibility of the project.

JimmyMW

FutureGuy wrote: »

I look at things like this...

http://www.passivehouseplans.ie

And I wonder where the hell im going wrong. The house we want to build is nowhere near that size.

They are very optimistic guides, ask them for the costings of a case study which is actually through the process, also whats included in the "Build Cost"

FutureGuy

JimmyMW wrote: »

Sorry I got mixed up with another thread, mine is 1800sq ft in total. I would think you will struggle to get 3 bedrooms, an office and a big living space into 1300sq ft, if you think of it a 4 bed semi from the 90's would have that kinda sq footage but the individual spaces would be tight. You would want to budget €1500/m2 for just the house and then furniture, curtains/blinds, external finishes, all connection fees, contributions and professional fees extra. That would be a good guide to look at the feasibility of the project.

We don’t need a big living space at all, hoping for an open plan kitchen and living area.

Thanks for letting me pick your brains. You mention 1,500/sq m so that would be about 180k for all that. Taking furniture out of it as we can live on what we have for now (all the basics except a sofa), we need to look at

- connection fees
- professional fees
- external finish etc

We are struggling to find costs here. Who could help us calculate this?

JimmyMW

FutureGuy wrote: »

- connection fees
- professional fees
- external finish etc

Whats your proposal for sewerage, water etc? Professional fees will be in the region €10-20k or more depending on the complexity of the build. External finishes will need to be done by a QS and its very much dependent on the site conditions and chosen finishes. Don't forget solicitors and insurances also, another few grand in there too.

Gumbo

Hi OP,

For starters, you will have 30-40 in Connection and Professional Fees.
This leaves you with 160k.
For a new dwelling to meet current building regulations, I don't think you can get there with 160k. If you dropped the size of the house down, maybe.

I see your in Limerick, so costs will be slightly lower than our Dublin costs, but not by much.
I think you need 300k minimum o build what you want.

FutureGuy

kceire wrote: »

Hi OP,

For starters, you will have 30-40 in Connection and Professional Fees.
This leaves you with 160k.
For a new dwelling to meet current building regulations, I don't think you can get there with 160k. If you dropped the size of the house down, maybe.

I see your in Limerick, so costs will be slightly lower than our Dublin costs, but not by much.
I think you need 300k minimum o build what you want.

Yeah, site is in the county.

I have totally underestimated the cost of building. So basically for a modest house with a simple design, you are looking at 350k including a site.

Christ.

shivermetimber

Here's a budget passive build from a few years ago in Longford: https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/new-build/longford-self-build-goes-certified-passive-on-a-budget Obviously figures will need to be adjusted for today but it might be of interest to you in some way.

They also did a blog of the build here and respond to peoples questions quite openly and frequently, even recently: http://mollyglass2012.tumblr.com/

FutureGuy

https://passivehouseplus.ie/magazine/new-build/farmhouse-inspired-home-goes-passive-on-a-shoestring

I also found this but I’m beginning to see a pattern of prices like these being associated with builders who are either tradespeople, architects or builders themselves.

Metric Tensor

People are selling a narrative too OP. No-one wants to write a story about:

'How I built a "passive" house for the same price as everyone else using the appropriate tradesmen and materials for the job'

It's like asking a gambler how much he spent last year or a fisherman what's the biggest fish he ever caught. If you start asking questions about professional fees, connection fees, site works, insurance, health and safety, taxes, etc ... you might find a lot of things that were conveniently not included in the calculations!

FutureGuy

Metric Tensor wrote: »

People are selling a narrative too OP. No-one wants to write a story about:

'How I built a "passive" house for the same price as everyone else using the appropriate tradesmen and materials for the job'

It's like asking a gambler how much he spent last year or a fisherman what's the biggest fish he ever caught. If you start asking questions about professional fees, connection fees, site works, insurance, health and safety, taxes, etc ... you might find a lot of things that were conveniently not included in the calculations!

We have only started our research this weekend and all we read is that a passive build is 10-15% more expensive but the costs are recouped quickly through smaller energy bills. I get the feeling this is not the case at all.

FutureGuy

Ia there is list anywhere that shows all the factors when building? I have some of the basics like water and electricity connection, sewage, etc.

Would be great to get one so I can just start making calls.

Lumen

FutureGuy wrote: »

Yeah, site is in the county.

I have totally underestimated the cost of building. So basically for a modest house with a simple design, you are looking at 350k including a site.

Christ.

I wouldn't describe a passive house as modest or simple. Rather than spending 3k a year on fuel (as you would in an old house) you are spending on extra mortgage payments for a more valuable, comfortable thing.

I don't really know why all houses aren't required to be built this way. It doesn't seem that much of a leap from our current building regs.

daphne

The prices those magazines have are often wide of the mark i'd say. Passive is great but you do pay a lot to scrape up to that standard. It is also quite difficult to achieve passive with a masonry build - so that's another decision - are you going with timber frame or some kind of pre-fab which can work out cheaper if you're going for passive. House would be of a certain design then. If you want passive, the shape of the house has to be considered - square footprint, simple roof details, south facing glazing are all important. Also, to be certified passive (if that's important to you) means that a lot of details such as cold bridging need to be satisfied - windows will have to be shown to be passive certified (a lot of brands offer these now i think), wall ties would be the basalt types rather than steel and any other structural elements have to be considered in that bridging calc too. Also, if you want to have a wood burner, it's very difficult to really get a seal on that for the air tightness. If you just want to build to passive and not get certified, then it's up to yourself.

I think passive is great, but just remember, if you go beyond the regs requirements and just try to bulk up in areas that it's possible to (insulation wise, air tightness etc) without killing yourself to go to passive standard, have a 200/250mm cavity, do your air tightness etc, you'll have a house that you'll heat/on demand hot water for around 600e a year.

JimmyMW

FutureGuy wrote: »

We have only started our research this weekend and all we read is that a passive build is 10-15% more expensive but the costs are recouped quickly through smaller energy bills. I get the feeling this is not the case at all.

My house is on target to cost around €6-700 a year to heat including all our hot water needs. The passive house in the link you posted earlier then has a potential saving of approx €500 a year vs my house, thats a long payback period even @ 10%

daphne

Ya. to get from your masonry build 600e/a year specification to passive spec is not linear in terms of cost - the tighter you go beyond that, the more it's costing you and the less you're gaining, proportionately - it's marginal gains, if that makes sense. For example, you'd probably need a 300mm plus cavity - this will mean scaffold both sides of wall as bricklayer may not want/be able to reach across. Living in a new build is like being on a different planet. It's so healthy, no hint of damp, even temperatures all the time everywhere in the house, no drafts. The general standard now is miles away from what it was even 10 years ago (talking about the normal practises here). HRV is standard, pumped cavities, 400mm insulation in the attic, triple glazing.
Talk to anyone and everyone who has built a house in last 5 years, go visit them - they're usually more than happy to tell your all their tales  and pick their brains on everything that comes into your head. Look at what they've done and see what you'd do/wouldn't do in your house. Also, bear in mind that unfortunately, things have really taken off in that time with costs in terms of how busy trades are and material.
Also, do you intend to do a direct labour build or have a main contractor - that will mean huge difference in cost. Do you have family members /friends who have trades?

Gumbo

I don't think Passive over Standard is only 10-15% extra. I'd say its more towards 30% +

Lumen

JimmyMW wrote: »

The passive house in the link you posted earlier then has a potential saving of approx €500 a year vs my house, thats a long payback period even @ 10%

I don't think it's just about money. I was in a proper passive house a couple of weeks ago. Big thing, well over 200sqm. It had no heating system. None. In the worst parts of last winter they used a couple of electric oil filled radiators, and that was it. But the important thing is that the felt weirdly comfortable. Not hot, not cold. Not like an air conditioned office. It was like one of those foreign holidays where you're walking around in a t-shirt in the evenings and there's a sort of perfect calm comfort.

I used to be a bit skeptical but now I'm totally sold on it. Build it right, and built it smaller if you have to. You can always extend in future.

daphne

Lumen wrote: »

JimmyMW wrote: »

The passive house in the link you posted earlier then has a potential saving of approx €500 a year vs my house, thats a long payback period even @ 10%

I don't think it's just about money. I was in a proper passive house a couple of weeks ago. Big thing, well over 200sqm. It had no heating system. None. In the worst parts of last winter they used a couple of electric oil filled radiators, and that was it. But the important thing is that the felt weirdly comfortable. Not hot, not cold. Not like an air conditioned office. It was like one of those foreign holidays where you're walking around in a t-shirt in the evenings and there's a sort of perfect calm comfort.

I used to be a bit skeptical but now I'm totally sold on it. Build it right, and built it smaller if you have to. You can always extend in future.

The comfort you're describing is due to its high levels of insulation but also that there is HRV (as there is in most new builds these days) which means no draughts but constant fresh air which has been warmed up by the expelled air.
Passive houses (depending on their design) often have problems with overheating (even in UK/Ireland) in summer months - so much so, that special grilles or louvers have to be incorporated to stop the interior being uncomfortably hot. That is no criticism on passive building at all - my point is is that if you visited any other new build, you'd have probably made the same observation on the comfort heat levels and lack of stuffiness.
It is amazing that you don't have any active heating system in a passive build, but it is a fact that if you want to go down this route, you are really trying for something that is not standard practice in this country and you'll have a lot of leg work to do (if you're not in the building trade) to track down designers/architects/engineers who specialise in passive build. Most builders/professionals just dont have the knowledge or experience. Again, passive building should be held up as the gold standard and we should be aspiring to it - it's just that in reality, it's difficult to achieve in Ireland.

Lumen

daphne wrote: »

The comfort you're describing is due to its high levels of insulation but also that there is HRV (as there is in most new builds these days) which means no draughts but constant fresh air which has been warmed up by the expelled air.
Passive houses (depending on their design) often have problems with overheating (even in UK/Ireland) in summer months - so much so, that special grilles or louvers have to be incorporated to stop the interior being uncomfortably hot. That is no criticism on passive building at all - my point is is that if you visited any other new build, you'd have probably made the same observation on the comfort heat levels and lack of stuffiness.
It is amazing that you don't have any active heating system in a passive build, but it is a fact that if you want to go down this route, you are really trying for something that is not standard practice in this country and you'll have a lot of leg work to do (if you're not in the building trade) to track down designers/architects/engineers who specialise in passive build. Most builders/professionals just dont have the knowledge or experience. Again, passive building should be held up as the gold standard and we should be aspiring to it - it's just that in reality, it's difficult to achieve in Ireland.

Right, the house I was in was owned by a construction industry project manager. He closely supervised everything and did a fair bit of the work himself, and where he didn't do the work himself it was done by people he'd used in work.

daphne

Ya, fair play to people who do it. Often they're doing it because they have a special interest or they're a bit anoraky - either way, their example should be noted and the passive build techniques should be documented and published by local authorities. One off house building is a piece of cake if you're in the industry but is a very steep learning curve for the average person.

looksee

I am hoping to build around 1200 sq m - a very modest cottage with a large downstairs single room, with a corner taken off for a utility incl bathroom, upstairs two bedrooms and a home office plus bathroom. I actively do not want a passive house, though I want max standards of insulation. Air to water underfloor heating, minimum finish - I will paint concrete floors and make do with a patched together kitchen initially. Anything that is permanent I want decent quality - carpentry, but anything I can do later I will. 1.5 storey with a porch, otherwise a simple rectangle. Made provision for a door for extending by putting in a window that will convert to a door in one place. At a glance engineer reckons I can do it for 150,000 not including land. I think this is not taking account of water connection which I think will be expensive (distance), and probably (some) fees - it was a quick estimate off the top of his head - but if I can come in at 170,000 or thereabouts I will be happy. I will have a chimney and a wood burning stove - I keep being told I will not need them but I do not want to live in a house that is totally dependent on electricity.

There is no doubt that it is now considerably more expensive to build than it used to be. Regulation is good, there should be controls on producing the single most expensive thing you will likely ever buy, but comparing it to buying a second hand house its a wonder there are any new houses being built at all.

JimmyMW

daphne wrote: »

Ya, fair play to people who do it. Often they're doing it because they have a special interest or they're a bit anoraky - either way, their example should be noted and the passive build techniques should be documented and published by local authorities. One off house building is a piece of cake if you're in the industry but is a very steep learning curve for the average person.

I'm in the industry, not a piece of cake at all, particularly if your doing it direct labour, details etc yes, however managing trades etc a complete nightmare as they know your job is a one time job so they come to you last, your job is used as a filler around their normal work for building contractors (constant work)

daphne

looksee wrote: »

I am hoping to build around 1200 sq m - a very modest cottage with a large downstairs single room, with a corner taken off for a utility incl bathroom, upstairs two bedrooms and a home office plus bathroom. I actively do not want a passive house, though I want max standards of insulation. Air to water underfloor heating, minimum finish - I will paint concrete floors and make do with a patched together kitchen initially. Anything that is permanent I want decent quality - carpentry, but anything I can do later I will. 1.5 storey with a porch, otherwise a simple rectangle. Made provision for a door for extending by putting in a window that will convert to a door in one place. At a glance engineer reckons I can do it for 150,000 not including land. I think this is not taking account of water connection which I think will be expensive (distance), and probably (some) fees - it was a quick estimate off the top of his head - but if I can come in at 170,000 or thereabouts I will be happy. I will have a chimney and a wood burning stove - I keep being told I will not need them but I do not want to live in a house that is totally dependent on electricity.

There is no doubt that it is now considerably more expensive to build than it used to be. Regulation is good, there should be controls on producing the single most expensive thing you will likely ever buy, but comparing it to buying a second hand house its a wonder there are any new houses being built at all.

Agree with you - you don't "need" the stove but it's a good backup if the weather really takes a sudden turn. Also, I underestimated the pleasure of a real fire - we've such long dark winters, it's really nice to put it on at the weekends and sit down in front of it - that's what home is about after all?

Gumbo

looksee wrote: »

I am hoping to build around 1200 sq m - a very modest cottage

I think you need to re-work your figures if 1200 Sq. M is a modest cottage

looksee

lol, too many zeros!

BryanF

daphne wrote: »

1. Passive houses (depending on their design) often have problems with overheating (even in UK/Ireland) in summer months - so much so, that special grilles or louvers have to be incorporated to stop the interior being uncomfortably hot.
..
2. It is amazing that you don't have any active heating system in a passive build, but it is a fact that if you want to go down this route, you are really trying for something that is not standard practice in this country

3.. and you'll have a lot of leg work to do (if you're not in the building trade) to track down designers/architects/engineers who specialise in passive build. Most builders/professionals just dont have the knowledge or experience.

.4. d we should be aspiring to it - it's just that in reality, it's difficult to achieve in Ireland.

Edit:
1. Exact opposite, it’s poprly design part L compliant houses that over heat & cool down to quickly in Ireland
2. Please confirm What % of Irish passive houses have no heating system ??
3. Look at the passiv institute list? There are post going back ten years in boards.ie for example with passive house builders/designers and clients
4. With the amount of contradictions found on the internet in Ireland it’s difficult to understand the process of passive house building. Disagree with the suggestion that it’s hard to achieve in Ireland

daphne

BryanF wrote: »

Edit:
1. Exact opposite, it’s poprly design part L compliant houses that over heat & cool down to quickly in Ireland
2. Please confirm What % of Irish passive houses have no heating system ??
3. Look at the passiv institute list? There are post going back ten years in boards.ie for example with passive house builders/designers and clients
4. With the amount of contradictions found on the internet in Ireland it’s difficult to understand the process of passive house building. Disagree with the suggestion that it’s hard to achieve in Ireland

I have read about passive houses having uncomfortably warm conditions in summer. Can you clarify your statement re "poprly design Part L compliant houses" cooling down too quickly?

I understand that a passive house has maybe an auxiliary elec based heater only? Heat is mostly generated by solar gain, appliances, people?There is no heating system in the way most people think of a heating system (e.g., boiler, heat pump). I do not know what percentage of
passive buildings in Ireland have a heating system.

Ok, get the directory, but don't expect your mate the chippy/block layer to know about best practice on passive building. Passive building is harder to achieve with masonry build generally speaking (please contradict me if this is not so). If you really want to do this, of course you'll find a way, but it is a fact that its not standard or even common in this country.

Please furnish us with some info. Id be interested to know many houses were certified passive in Ireland and if that number is increasing in last 10 yrs. What percentage of new one off houses are passive certified?

FutureGuy

Is there anything to be said for the likes of Ecohouse?

BryanF

daphne wrote: »

1. I have read about passive houses having uncomfortably warm conditions in summer.
1A. Can you clarify your statement re "poprly design Part L compliant houses" cooling down too quickly?

2. I understand that a passive house has maybe an auxiliary elec based heater only?
2A. Heat is mostly generated by solar gain, appliances, people?
2B. There is no heating system in the way most people think of a heating system (e.g., boiler, heat pump).
3. I do not know what percentage of
passive buildings in Ireland have a heating system.

Ok, get the directory,
4. but don't expect your mate the chippy/block layer to know about best practice on passive building.
4. Passive building is harder to achieve with masonry build generally speaking (please contradict me if this is not so).
3. If you really want to do this, of course you'll find a way, but it is a fact that its not standard or even common in this country.

4. Please furnish us with some info. Id be interested to know many houses were certified passive in Ireland and if that number is increasing in last 10 yrs. What percentage of new one off houses are passive certified?

1. Suggest you keep reading. Perhaps go and visit a passive certified house.
1A. Passive certified homes have all junctions/details assessed for thermal continuity. And are calculated/ designed to ensure they don’t over heat or suffer from excessive heat loss. The DEAP software is no where near as acturate, and lack of design/assessment/construction supervision in general in Ireland means part L ‘compliant’ homes can still suffer from overheating or excess cooling.

2. Keep reading. Passive houses have a heating & Hw requirement
2A. A decent %, but that’s all
2B. Keep reading. There generally is a conventional heating system, albeit smaller kw output

3. .. did you read this? Or is this from actual knowledge of the construction industry or maybe actual experience?

4. To directly address your original statement: it is not difficult to design and build a passive houses in Ireland.

ht9zni1gs28crp

@Futureguy

Lots of misinformation and hearsay yet again relating to Passive house building, and yes im talking about fully certified Passive building.

1: By setting out straightaway on a Passive build you are making life easier for on site conditions. As every single detail and interface has already been thought about, designed and set out. No ambiguity from site, no contractors making design decisions which can cost money.

Speak to an Architect/Engineer who has experience of Passive Builds, ie someone who has certified buildings already under their belt. Passive House is very well suited to the Irish climate as we are not dealing with a massive swing in temperatures that some countries do.

Sign up to NZEB and take part in their open day coming soon, go visit passive houses and get the views/experiences direct from the owner/builder.

Do not, I repeat do not change any of your own views based on internet forum statements.

daphne wrote: »

The prices those magazines have are often wide of the mark i'd say. Passive is great but you do pay a lot to scrape up to that standard.

Sweeping statement that isnt true. 'those magazines' are publishing accuracies, they are not the Daily Fail or the Sun.

daphne wrote: »

It is also quite difficult to achieve passive with a masonry build

No its not. Id argue its relativley simple and any blocklayer worth his salt will have no issues once he is directed. IE see my point 1 above.

daphne wrote: »

If you want passive, the shape of the house has to be considered - square footprint, simple roof details, south facing glazing are all important. Also, to be certified passive (if that's important to you) means that a lot of details such as cold bridging need to be satisfied - windows will have to be shown to be passive certified (a lot of brands offer these now i think),

Correct. Again pre planning your design with Passive target is crucial.

daphne wrote: »

wall ties would be the basalt types rather than steel

Incorrect, Stainless Steel ties such as those produced here in Ireland by Vartry have been used in Passive Certified builds.

daphne wrote: »

I think passive is great, but just remember, if you go beyond the regs requirements and just try to bulk up in areas that it's possible to (insulation wise, air tightness etc) without killing yourself to go to passive standard, have a 200/250mm cavity, do your air tightness etc, .

daphne wrote: »

Ya. to get from your masonry build 600e/a year specification to passive spec is not linear in terms of cost - the tighter you go beyond that, the more it's costing you and the less you're gaining, proportionately - it's marginal gains, if that makes sense. For example, you'd probably need a 300mm plus cavity

You are wildly throwing statements here against Passive that arent true, statements that contribute to the general 'hearsay of doom and gloom' to passive building. A 250mm wide Cavity build can meet desired U Values to acheive Passive Certified.

daphne wrote: »

this will mean scaffold both sides of wall as bricklayer may not want/be able to reach across.

Correct, keep the blocklayer who recommends this on a wide cavity build. Any blocklayer who wants to build wide cavity from one side be wary of. Scaffold as every one knows it only required on outside. Same expense as standard. Internal walls can be built from trestle lifts.

daphne wrote: »

Passive houses (depending on their design) often have problems with overheating (even in UK/Ireland) in summer months - so much so, that special grilles or louvers have to be incorporated to stop the interior being uncomfortably hot.

Again pHpp and pre design will factor in overheating, only a certain percentage of overheating is allowed. Closing your curtains acts in a similar way as external solar shading. Windows can be opened too, lets not forget that.

daphne wrote: »

That is no criticism on passive building at all

Ive taken time to create this post as it certainly reads like a critisicm, I think a lot of what you wrote is based on hearsay, and can be easily debunked.

daphne wrote: »

- my point is is that if you visited any other new build, you'd have probably made the same observation on the comfort heat levels and lack of stuffiness.
It is amazing that you don't have any active heating system in a passive build, but it is a fact that if you want to go down this route, you are really trying for something that is not standard practice in this country and you'll have a lot of leg work to do (if you're not in the building trade) to track down designers/architects/engineers who specialise in passive build. Most builders/professionals just dont have the knowledge or experience. Again, passive building should be held up as the gold standard and we should be aspiring to it - it's just that in reality, it's difficult to achieve in Ireland.

Agreed, visit houses that have acheived it. On the other hand there are lots of educated and experienced builders out there, likewise with the professionals. Passive is only going to become the norm as the years go by.

daphne wrote: »

Often they're doing it because they have a special interest or they're a bit anoraky - either way, their example should be noted and the passive build techniques should be documented and published by local authorities. One off house building is a piece of cake if you're in the industry but is a very steep learning curve for the average person.

The biggest outlay of your life is a house, why wouldnt you get all 'anoraky' about it? You dont just wander in and buy a car off a forecourt because its got four wheels? You make the decision based on your requirements.

daphne wrote: »

Agree with you - you don't "need" the stove but it's a good backup if the weather really takes a sudden turn. Also, I underestimated the pleasure of a real fire - we've such long dark winters, it's really nice to put it on at the weekends and sit down in front of it - that's what home is about after all?

A Passvie certified home will never need to use a real fire. A fire place in Ireland has an awfull romatic view, yet in reality the reason people view family time with a fire is associated with warm fronts and cold backs as everyone is huddled around a fire to keep warm as the house is incredibly cold and draughty. A romantic view when broken down is actually based on misery! In a passive house by the time one log has burnt through the house will be too hot. Que the lack of dust, lack of wood cutting, lack of wood storing, lack of 7k needed to build a chimney.
Its so the best decision I ever made, and I based that decision on the experience of a professional whos advice I sought and paid for.

A masonry built house will act way better as a heat storage unit than any timber frame or eco house. Slow to cool down and slow to heat up makes it perfect to keep an even keel on temperatures.

daphne wrote: »

Ok, get the directory, but don't expect your mate the chippy/block layer to know about best practice on passive building. Passive building is harder to achieve with masonry build generally speaking (please contradict me if this is not so). If you really want to do this, of course you'll find a way, but it is a fact that its not standard or even common in this country.

Id nearly suggest you work for a timber frame company? Masonry is no different at all, see point 1 above.

daphne wrote: »

Please furnish us with some info. Id be interested to know many houses were certified passive in Ireland and if that number is increasing in last 10 yrs. What percentage of new one off houses are passive certified?

All information is easily found, see link below to all certified buildings in Ireland. This database will double and triple in the coming years as there are a lot more passive houses coming on stream
https://passivhausprojekte.de/index.php?lang=en#k_ireland

While im here posting links, have a read through some of the following:

https://phai.ie/

http://www.passivehouseacademy.com/

daphne

I've read those links, I'm an engineer and I recently built an A2 rated house. None of that is relevant however  because none of what I've said has been shown to be factually incorrect despite the aggressive quoting and rebuttal that's going on and telling me to read stuff. :P 

And, Sir, while I don't need a wood burning stove with a glass window, I like it - I like looking at it. I dont know what relevance romance/misery/people huddled around a fire in one room has to that. I think you're being argumentative just like BryanF who tells me that a passive house has a conventional heating system when the first thing you read about Passive Houses is that they don't (passive as in "not active") because they don't need one.  

Meanwhile - back to the OP's issue (who I agree shouldn't waste too much time on here!) - build a passive house (or any house) with 200k.

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daphne wrote: »

I've read those links, I'm an engineer and I recently built an A2 rated house. None of that is relevant however  because none of what I've said has been shown to be factually incorrect despite the aggressive quoting and rebuttal that's going on and telling me to read stuff. :P

Its only coming across agressive to you as your factually incorrect statements you made are being highlighted which you have taken umbrance to. Your correct statements have also been highlighted but you make no reference to those.

daphne wrote: »

I think you're being argumentative just like BryanF who tells me that a passive house has a conventional heating system when the first thing you read about Passive Houses is that they don't (passive as in "not active") because they don't need one.  

There is a difference between correcting and argumentative. As an Engineer surely you understand the exasperation caused between fact and fiction in a technical world?

Disect 'conventional' heating system, if your thinking standard boiler/rads then they dont need that overload. Think along the lines of a gentler heat required. Hence AWHP and GSHP

daphne wrote: »

Meanwhile - back to the OP's issue (who I agree shouldn't waste too much time on here!) - build a passive house (or any house) with 200k.

You cant be slating people at getting anoraky and acheiving sub 200k house builds, thats called jealousy . Hold on I'll put a smily here to soften that

Gumbo

daphne wrote: »

who I agree shouldn't waste too much time on here!

Then why are you here?

looksee

As a totally non-expert I visited a passive house - a show house designed to show off the building method (prefab) and the end result. While I very much liked the style of the house and the finish, I did not like the 'feel' of it, it seemed airless and stale - it was a building being used on a daily basis. Without the ventilation system I would have liked it as a house, but the ventilation system was the whole point of it.

My other issue was that it was proposing that a passive house could be built economically, but the price was achieved by quoting the cost of the prefabricated units but offering 'estimates' for all the trades that would have to be added on - plastering, roofing, plumbing, electrical, groundworks, carpentry etc.

It was also conditional on being able to provide these other trades exactly when needed - you would have to have a plasterer available to turn up on a particular Tuesday or the whole build was out of sync - and thus more expensive. The supplied aspects were impressive, but you would be depending on a very demanding and organised engineer/project manager and very co-operative tradespeople to make it work.

JimmyMW

miller_63 wrote: »

You cant be slating people at getting anoraky and acheiving sub 200k house builds, thats called jealousy . Hold on I'll put a smily here to soften that

To be fair the op's budget is 200k for everything all professional fees, connection fees and development contributions etc, that in my opinion is not possible, irrespective of passive or not.

FutureGuy

JimmyMW wrote: »

To be fair the op's budget is 200k for everything all professional fees, connection fees and development contributions etc, that in my opinion is not possible, irrespective of passive or not.

We could stretch to 230-240k I feel.