Illicit Distillation

howyegettinon1

to the mods, this is a discussion on the legal aspects of distilling in ireland and in no way promoting the illegal distillation or methods. this is purely for research and curiosity on the topic

i am trying to find out what penaly is carried for illegal distilling in ireland. all i could find was below, 100 pound fine? is that it or are there any other penalties

what about owning a still? or being caught distilling your own spirits? are there any court examples of people getting caught with a still anda few litres of spirit or poteen?


24. Every person who shall sell or deliver any spirits which shall have been illicitly distilled, or the full duties whereon shall not have been fully paid, shall forfeit one hundred pounds, subject to the mitigation herein-after mentioned, unless proof shall be made by such person that such spirits were bought or received by him from a licensed distiller, or some person licensed to deal in or sell spirits.

coylemj

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

...... all i could find was below, 100 pound fine? is that it or are there any other penalties

If you're going to copy & paste a piece of current legislation, you might at least give us the name and year of the act.

Better still, include a link to that act on http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/

Victor

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

i am trying to find out what penaly is carried for illegal distilling in ireland. all i could find was below, 100 pound fine?

The Fines Act adjusts historical fines for inflation.

Don't forget the methanol poisoning.

coylemj

howyegettinon1 wrote: »

what about owning a still? or being caught distilling your own spirits? are there any court examples of people getting caught with a still anda few litres of spirit or poteen?

There have been many examples over the years. It's a revenue offence so a hefty fine and confiscation of the equipment and the destruction of the illicit liquor is the usual decision handed down. In the good ol' days, the normal practice was for the judge to call to the Garda station on his way home to pick up a bottle or two.

It used to be (may still be) a hanging offence for a publican to be convicted of having moonshine on the premises. Immediate forfeiture of the licence.

Comment from Nuac

After many years practice in the West ( and in some major poitín areas ) I never heard of the District Judge calling to a Garda Barracks for such a purpose.

Around Christmas a solicitor who defended poitín makers might find a bottle in his car after a court sitting in a particular area, but that was it

the_syco

https://leman.ie/distilling-irelands-potential-for-whiskey-and-liquor-manufacturing/

Manufacturer’s Licence
A Manufacturer’s Licence is required by all Manufacturers/Distillers of spirits. The licence is obtained on application to the National Excise Licensing Office and on payment of the appropriate fee (€500.00), together with a tax clearance certificate, the applicant certificate of incorporation and certificate of registered business name. The licence authorises the manufacturing of liquor and the dealing of it on a wholesale basis.

If the fee is €500, I'd assume that the penalty would be a lot higher?

=-=

Ye olde laws from 1831; http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1831/act/55/enacted/en/print

L1011

The minimum size revenue require for a still except in extenuating circumstances is really Quite Big. This makes it unviable for home or small scale distillers

coylemj

coylemj wrote: »

Comment from Nuac

After many years practice in the West ( and in some major poitín areas ) I never heard of the District Judge calling to a Garda Barracks for such a purpose.

Around Christmas a solicitor who defended poitín makers might find a bottle in his car after a court sitting in a particular area, but that was it

I got the story from a retired Garda sergeant who served in the west for a few years in the 60s/70s. He wasn't a guy given to bravado, he was a stickler for procedure, as straight as they come and certainly wouldn't have made it up.

howyegettinon1

coylemj wrote: »

If you're going to copy & paste a piece of current legislation, you might at least give us the name and year of the act.

Better still, include a link to that act on http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/

here you go
http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1831/act/55/section/24/enacted/en/html

Under His Eye

£100 back in 1831 would have been a fair wedge of cash.

howyegettinon1

a fine for having 2 bottles of poteen in the house
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fine-for-horselover-who-gave-poteen-to-his-nag-26268472.html

small distillery raided.....no mention of fines
https://www.irishtimes.com/news/gardai-seize-four-gallons-of-poteen-in-sligo-1.430901

could it be that the fines are minimal so the papers dont want to advertise it, so people dont get any ideas?

the_syco

I think the main reason for it being pretty much banned, is that if made incorrectly, it can cause blindness due to methanol?

listermint

the_syco wrote: »

I think the main reason for it being pretty much banned, is that if made incorrectly, it can cause blindness due to methanol?

Isn't it incredibly easy to test alcohol levels in it. And that only harks back to days when there was less science and more throw the first dram over your shoulder.

Andrea B.

Off topic, but there is some amount going on...and likely hobby not profit.
My local homebrew store holds a huge amount of turbo yeasts and wood chips and associated gear which is only good for distilling.
I notice the turnover of stocks.
I suspect a fair bit going on with eastern European's who have a tradition of same.
The methanol is low risk. Approx first 50m! from a 20L wash, so mitigation by chucking 150ml.
A little youtubing and amazoning will show how widespread this hobby is.
I believe a still on its own when used for homeopathy or perfume is legal.
A lawbreaking friend of mine tasted "whiskey" aged for 2 weeks in hickory chips and swore it was as good as a mid range brand. His lawbreaking friend made 5 litres 40%ABV from 6 Kg sugar, turbo yeasts and wood chips (14euro) +gas .(water charges outstanding).

howyegettinon1

the_syco wrote: »

I think the main reason for it being pretty much banned, is that if made incorrectly, it can cause blindness due to methanol?

i would say its mainly down to loss of revenue.
yeah methanol evaporetes at a lower temp than ethanol so you throw out the first X amount of ml at the start and the rest is safe to drink

Esel

Legal spirits have to be triple-distilled, afaik.

Gravelly

There's an oul lad living not far from me that's been caught several times, but as far as I'm aware, he's never been fined more than €100, and I don't think he's been caught in the last 10 years, though he still makes it - I wonder have the Gardaí stopped prosecuting for it? I'd imagine drugs would be far higher on their radar these days. I'd say every house within a 5 mile radius of him (including mine) has at least one bottle of his stuff in a press somewhere. I know a garda that swears by it for greyhounds.

odyssey06

Esel wrote: »

Legal spirits have to be triple-distilled, afaik.

Not sure about that, Kilbeggan whiskey makes great play in advertising that it is double distilled. I'm sure Irish Distillers would like that to be illegal though, at one point they wanted to buy them out so they could claim that Irish whiskey was always triple distilled

I think most Scotch sold here would be double distilled also.

granturismo

Esel wrote: »

Legal spirits have to be triple-distilled, afaik.

No, most Irish whiskey is traditionally triple distilled. As pointed out above some is double distilled and other spirits are a single still product.

beazee

Kentucky bourbon is single distilled:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Beam

L1011

beazee wrote: »

Kentucky bourbon is single distilled:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Beam

As are most clear spirits ("white" spirits as they're usually called, just makes me think of someone drinking paint cleaners!)

Irish Whiskey is usually triple distilled, but there is zero requirement for it to be. Scotch is usually double distilled but again, no requirement - Auchentoshen is triple.

howyegettinon1

so the general idea I am getting here is that 100euro seems to be the fine and the garda dont really care unless your selling and supplying to a medium sized town

odyssey06

Is there any way to 'prove' that a bottle of spirit in a pub was distilled illicitly?
Unless they get the still, how could the Gardai prove that a pub was selling illicitly distilled spirits?

In an earlier link in the thread a guy was convicted of having poitin because someone in the house said it was poitin. But if you just said, oh the vodka bottle smashed so I put it into this bottle instead, wouldn't you get off?

Under His Eye

They would send it for chemical analysis.

ohnonotgmail

Under His Eye wrote: »

They would send it for chemical analysis.

what would a chemical analysis show?

Victor

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what would a chemical analysis show?

That it doesn't have the trace markers used by the commercial manufacturers.

ohnonotgmail

Victor wrote: »

That it doesn't have the trace markers used by the commercial manufacturers.

what trace markers are these?

GM228

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

what trace markers are these?

Special sugar dyes are used by many producers which can only be detected using special test kits, but not all producers use such markers.

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

Special sugar dyes are used by many producers which can only be detected using special test kits, but not all producers use such markers.

so a chemical analysis would not tell you if alcohol was illicit or not?

Victor

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so a chemical analysis would not tell you if alcohol was illicit or not?

It would tell the manufacturer that you are passing off your hooch as their premium product. Then then involve the Garda, Revenue, etc.

GM228

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

so a chemical analysis would not tell you if alcohol was illicit or not?

Yes, legit alcohol has ethanol, most non legit don't and substitute with the type you find in anti freeze, nail polish removers, car screen wash or perfume products for example, that's a big give away using chemical analysis.

Also, a new hand held device using Ramen Spectrosocy technology (Spatially Offset Raman Spectroscopy or SORS) can detect counterfeit alcohol through a closed bottle using chemical analysis.

L1011

GM228 wrote: »

Yes, legit alcohol has ethanol, most non legit don't and substitute with the type you find in anti freeze, nail polish removers, car screen wash or perfume products for example, that's a big give away using chemical analysis.

Also, a new hand held device using Ramen Spectrosocy technology (Spatially Offset Raman Spectroscopy or SORS) can detect counterfeit alcohol through a closed bottle using chemical analysis.

Illicitly distilled product is going to be ethanol (if the distiller is even vaguely competent) though. Finding random alcohols faked off as brands would be possible with chemical analysis or spectroscopy but determining whether what is in a bottle is one of the branded poitin products or something distilled in Johnny's shed down the road isn't going to be that simple.

ohnonotgmail

GM228 wrote: »

Yes, legit alcohol has ethanol, most non legit don't and substitute with the type you find in anti freeze, nail polish removers, car screen wash or perfume products for example, that's a big give away using chemical analysis.

Also, a new hand held device using Ramen Spectrosocy technology (Spatially Offset Raman Spectroscopy or SORS) can detect counterfeit alcohol through a closed bottle using chemical analysis.

just to clarify, by illicit i mean alcohol on which duty has not been paid. I know it is possible to tell alochol from not-alcohol. that is just basic chemistry. you mentioned chemical markers. Somebody else that not all manufacturers use them so how can you use them to determine if alcohol is illicit?

tayto lover

Poitin is very scarce but I've a little still.

Carawaystick

Is there any legal issue with me distilling stuff in a country in the EU which allows home distillation, and bringing it here? ( for my own personal use)

exaisle

GM228 wrote: »

Yes, legit alcohol has ethanol, most non legit don't and substitute with the type you find in anti freeze, nail polish removers, car screen wash or perfume products for example, that's a big give away using chemical analysis.

Just to clarify, ethanol IS what most people know as "alcohol". Raw ethanol is the basis for gins and vodkas in that they are produced by adding botanicals to raw alcohol. Brandy and whiskey which are aged after production, would tend to have low percentages of other alcohols - mainly methanol which boils at about 65 degrees, about 15 degrees lower than ethanol. As is mentioned elsewhere, the practice of throwing away the first "glass" of distillate, ("giving it to the fairies") removed much of the methanol from the distillate. Indeed, in New Zealand, where distilling for home use is legal, much of the alcohol produced for home consumption has a lower percentage of methanol than many commercial products because of the use of good yeasts and sugars (not standard sugar for home use).

With all due respect, what you've said about "non legit" may be inreference to the scandal in Austria back in the 1980's where "anti-freeze" was found in wine. It was, I believe a deliberate attempt to scam wine consumers by certain Austrian wine producers whereby they added diethanol glycol(an ingredient of anti-freeze) to wine to make it appear sweeter.

While possession of a still is illegal, it is, of course, quite legitimate to produce wine and beer for home consumption. The possession of a still is a criminal offence also. So...I would ask the question...what is that status of alcohol distilled without the use of a still (ie. freeze-distilled)? Not that I am for one minute advocating the practice!

Victor

exaisle wrote: »

freeze-distilled

Will this remove the methanol? Depending on precise method, it might not.

Talking to a manufacturing pharmacist about this (in the context of ice-brewed beers and Tactical Nuclear Penguins), he emphasised that the testing for methanol would be essential, although he was unsure what laboratory would do the testing for such an arrangement.

drunkmonkey

I made some bathtub gin a few years ago, served it out as gin to the girls. I presume that's legal your more infushing than distilling and the vodka was bought in a shop.

ohnonotgmail

drunkmonkey wrote: »

I made some bathtub gin a few years ago, served it out as gin to the girls. I presume that's legal your more infushing than distilling and the vodka was bought in a shop.

As it didnt involve a still and there was no distillation involved i cant how it could be illegal.

drunkmonkey

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

As it didnt involve a still and there was no distillation involved i cant how it could be illegal.

Me neither but could be something there if your changing it from one spirit to another.

ohnonotgmail

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Me neither but could be something there if your changing it from one spirit to another.

the only thing you change is the taste. It is still the same ethanol. If bathtub gin was illegal then skittles vodka would also be illegal.

exaisle

Victor wrote: »

Will this remove the methanol? Depending on precise method, it might not.

No...it wouldnt remove the methanol as its freezing point is also below that of water. Thats why making "apple jack" from cider by this method is dangerous as the abv % of the methanol is also raised. You really dont want to be drinking methanol!

Carawaystick

exaisle wrote: »

No...it wouldnt remove the methanol as its freezing point is also below that of water. Thats why making "apple jack" from cider by this method is dangerous as the abv % of the methanol is also raised. You really dont want to be drinking methanol!

Wouldn't just drinking the cider be as dangerous if there was methanol

Victor

Carawaystick wrote: »

Wouldn't just drinking the cider be as dangerous if there was methanol

It wouldn't be as concentrated.

exaisle

Might as well ask this here: Can you carbon filter Apple Jack (ie freeze distilled cider) to remove some of the fusel oils? I know it won't have any effect on the methanol but still...

beazee

exaisle wrote: »

Might as well ask this here: Can you carbon filter Apple Jack (ie freeze distilled cider) to remove some of the fusel oils? I know it won't have any effect on the methanol but still...

There's only one way to find out.
Try it and report back if and how it affected the taste.

"Seemingly the yeasty flavor went away and it brought out much more flavor."
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/carbon-filtering.379903/

Lenar3556

coylemj wrote: »

There have been many examples over the years. It's a revenue offence so a hefty fine and confiscation of the equipment and the destruction of the illicit liquor is the usual decision handed down. In the good ol' days, the normal practice was for the judge to call to the Garda station on his way home to pick up a bottle or two.

It used to be (may still be) a hanging offence for a publican to be convicted of having moonshine on the premises. Immediate forfeiture of the licence.

Comment from Nuac

After many years practice in the West ( and in some major poitín areas ) I never heard of the District Judge calling to a Garda Barracks for such a purpose.

Around Christmas a solicitor who defended poitín makers might find a bottle in his car after a court sitting in a particular area, but that was it

Not all that many years ago, it wasn’t unheard of for a DJ to go to a public house with members of the Garda after the court concluded. In one particular case the judges car was regularly driven back to his home in the early hours of the morning by a Garda, with a patrol car following behind.

Different times!

exaisle

Result.....it started off tasting like weak monkey p1ss.
Now it just tastes like stronger monkey p1ss.
The alcohol content must be negligible. I've filterest it down from around 2 litres (size of a big coke bottle) to about 400ml. It would take a lot of sugar to make it in any way palatable.