David Pocock, the greatest loose forward in the world?

troyzer

Just saw this teaser on YouTube with Pocock's mad skillz at the breakdown over the last season.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=62nCcgWSR-w

He really is a complete freak. Complete gent in real life as well.

Now that Warburton is retired, I'd say he's the undisputed best loose forward in the game today.

Fight me.

ec18

Loose forward is a bit too general to say that he's the greatest. Pocock is probably the best breakdown loose forward in the world but I don't know if you can overlook the likes of Kieran Read, POM, Vunipola (when he's fit), SOB (when fit) for overall best loose forward

troyzer

ec18 wrote: »

Loose forward is a bit too general to say that he's the greatest. Pocock is probably the best breakdown loose forward in the world but I don't know if you can overlook the likes of Kieran Read, POM, Vunipola (when he's fit), SOB (when fit) for overall best loose forward

You have to keep it general because he plays all over the scrum. It's hard to nail him down to one position.

Pocock is just constantly everywhere. He's a rash.

Sabre0001

Great player. Watching himself and Hooper roam in the defensive line and near breakdown is incredible. True Grit is also a great watch.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tycNOYVKwxA

ec18

troyzer wrote: »

You have to keep it general because he plays all over the scrum. It's hard to nail him down to one position.

Pocock is just constantly everywhere. He's a rash.

If we're going completely general than I'd vote for SOB when fully fit

troyzer

ec18 wrote: »

If we're going completely general than I'd vote for SOB when fully fit

Wouldn't even have put SOB as the best in Europe before Warburton retired.

Now? Probably. I'd rather have Pocock than SOB.

Clegg

For me it's Kieran Read. He has the all round game to make a great player full stop. He's a top notch carrier, making a yard or two in the tight and he's excellent in the wide channels. He also has brilliant passing and offloading skills for a forward and has laid on so many trys through his ball handling ability.

kupus

troyzer wrote: »

You have to keep it general because he plays all over the scrum. It's hard to nail him down to one position.

Pocock is just constantly everywhere. He's a rash.

But he is a rash that every team would like to have!

Brilliant player, that does the simple things with ease.

I would hate to play against him as you never know where he is going to pop up.

Clegg

troyzer wrote: »

Wouldn't even have put SOB as the best in Europe before Warburton retired.

Player comparisons are always tricky things when they have completely different skill sets. Warburton was a better player at the breakdown. Slowed down a lot of ball and won his fair share of turnovers. But his carrying wasn't great. He was the archetypal openside flanker. SoB plays with the 7 on his jersey but was more of a 6.5. Does good work at the breakdown but is a wrecking ball with ball in hand and has the ability to destroy rucks with a hit. For me SoB has the better all round game.

They complemented each others game wonderfully in the Lions tour where nominally Warbuton was the openside and SoB the blindside. But really there roles were reversed.

Buer

Poor man's VDF.

troyzer

Buer wrote: »

Poor man's VDF.

-_-

swiwi_

A one trick pony. His one trick « pilfering » is world class but elsewhere very average: line out, passing, running game etc no better than anyone else.

joseywhales

troyzer wrote: »

ec18 wrote: »

If we're going completely general than I'd vote for SOB when fully fit

Wouldn't even have put SOB as the best in Europe before Warburton retired.

Now? Probably. I'd rather have Pocock than SOB.

Anglo TV bias aside, in both lions tours sob had the greater impact on results which is how I would measure a player.

Warbuton had better players with him with Wales at that time and was only world class at spoiling possession. While sob seemed to have to spoil possession, be the first to break the gainline, clean out and link play.

Webbs

joseywhales wrote: »

Irish bias aside, in both lions tours Warburton had the greater impact on results which is how I would measure a player.
.

Fixed

troyzer

Webbs wrote: »

Fixed

Warburton is pure class.

Has anyone seen the Squidge rugby video on him?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SbRr8s8DyTE

swiwi_

It’s always pointless debating SOB vs Warburton on a non-neutral forum, especially one where maybe ⅔ of posters are from Leinster. No different to Barrett vs Sexton on a NZ forum etc.

Both fine players. Doubt SOB will be as good as Warburton in the commentary box though...

Sangre

Kieran Reid is nearly always the best player on the park anytime I see him play. Anyone who can get 100+ caps in the NZ backrow has to be a special player.

joseywhales

Webbs wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

Irish bias aside, in both lions tours Warburton had the greater impact on results which is how I would measure a player.
.

Fixed

Haha fair enough but you can't even argue about the last lions tour. In fairness Warburton was fairly crocked, they both seemed to have been for the last 5 years. Incredible dedication by both of them.

aloooof

joseywhales wrote: »

Haha fair enough but you can't even argue about the last lions tour. In fairness Warburton was fairly crocked, they both seemed to have been for the last 5 years. Incredible dedication by both of them.

You absolutely can argue. Looking at results alone, Warburton didn't start the first game (which the Lions lost) but started the final 2 (which they won and drew). I'm not necessarily saying I agree, but I can see that a case can be made.

joseywhales

aloooof wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

Haha fair enough but you can't even argue about the last lions tour. In fairness Warburton was fairly crocked, they both seemed to have been for the last 5 years. Incredible dedication by both of them.

You absolutely can argue. Looking at results alone, Warburton didn't start the first game (which the Lions lost) but started the final 2 (which they won and drew). I'm not necessarily saying I agree, but I can see that a case can be made.

Absolutely, you can also say that Courtney lawes and Jack nowel made the difference since they had minutes in the last two games but no minutes in the first game. The case can be made.

aloooof

joseywhales wrote: »

Absolutely, you can also say that Courtney lawes and Jack nowel made the difference since they had minutes in the last two games but no minutes in the first game. The case can be made.

What you're suggesting isn't comparable.

Warburton started and played all 80 of the 2nd test and 66 mins of the 3rd.
Lawes came on as a sub and played 22 and 31
Nowell came on as a sub and played 56 and 8.

joseywhales

aloooof wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

Absolutely, you can also say that Courtney lawes and Jack nowel made the difference since they had minutes in the last two games but no minutes in the first game. The case can be made.

What you're suggesting isn't comparable.

Warburton started and played all 80 of the 2nd test and 66 mins of the 3rd.
Lawes came on as a sub and played 22 and 31
Nowell came on as a sub and played 56 and 8.

I'm not necessarily saying I agree, but I can see that a case can be made.

aloooof

joseywhales wrote: »

I'm not necessarily saying I agree, but I can see that a case can be made.

A case can be made and then completely refuted, as evidenced by stats above. Not remotely similar to comparing Warburton vs SOB.

joseywhales

aloooof wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

I'm not necessarily saying I agree, but I can see that a case can be made.

A case can be made and then completely refuted, as evidenced by stats above. Not remotely similar to comparing Warburton vs SOB.

Your case can be made for Warburton>SOB and completely refuted based on the fact that playing minutes alone do not indicate effective impact on the result.
And I agree with you that you can make a case and not necessarily agree with it.

aloooof

joseywhales wrote: »

Your case can be made for Warburton>SOB and completely refuted based on the fact that playing minutes alone do not indicate effective impact on the result.
And I agree with you that you can make a case and not necessarily agree with it.

I agree that alone it's not enough, but there is a correlation. And the comparison you're making to refute it (with Lawes and Nowell) doesn't stack up; do we agree with that at least?

Across the 3 Tests, total minutes played are:
SOB: 184
Warburton: 173
Lawes: 53
Nowell: 64

I don't think is controversial to say Warburton had more impact on the series than Nowell or Lawes.

It's clearly a lot closer between SOB and Warburton, that's all I'm saying. And I certainly don't think it's in the "you can't even argue" category.

clsmooth

Is SOB still the wreaking ball that he was around 2010-13? I’d say no, I reckon he’s a much better and rounded player as his work at the breakdown and link play has come on leaps and bounds. Can’t actually remember the last time he smashed through someone. Although this may also be due to the fact he’s not played all that much over the last few years.

irishbucsfan

War heron was one of the best that did it but people on here never wanted to know.

A real shame because I loved every second of watching him at his best, some people really missed out.

joseywhales

aloooof wrote: »

joseywhales wrote: »

Your case can be made for Warburton>SOB and completely refuted based on the fact that playing minutes alone do not indicate effective impact on the result.
And I agree with you that you can make a case and not necessarily agree with it.

I agree that alone it's not enough, but there is a correlation. And the comparison you're making to refute it (with Lawes and Nowell) doesn't stack up; do we agree with that at least?

Across the 3 Tests, total minutes played are:
SOB: 184
Warburton: 173
Lawes: 53
Nowell: 64

I don't think is controversial to say Warburton had more impact on the series than Nowell or Lawes.

It's clearly a lot closer between SOB and Warburton, that's all I'm saying. And I certainly don't think it's in the "you can't even argue" category.

I what I am saying is that minutes played per test is very weakly correlated to impact. Also both played for large periods simultaneously. There are so many factors it, many of which are subjective but as a useful aggregate, I would use the review of the head coach in response to having his own staff insulted by the player and still singling him out for praise. The stats for ball carrying, passing, try, try assist etc stack up well too. Also I would be interested to know who the opposition feared more. After that player ratings by respected objective journalists and analysts.

Using time played in winning/drawn tests is a not sufficient argument.

aloooof

joseywhales wrote: »

I what I am saying is that minutes played per test is very weakly correlated to impact. Also both played for large periods simultaneously. There are so many factors it, many of which are subjective but as a useful aggregate, I would use the review of the head coach in response to having his own staff insulted by the player and still singling him out for praise. The stats for ball carrying, passing, try, try assist etc stack up well too. Also I would be interested to know who the opposition feared more. After that player ratings by respected objective journalists and analysts.

Using time played in winning/drawn tests is a not sufficient argument.

I think we largely agree. For me the bolded part is the crux of it. Even taking into account all the factors you've mentioned, people will still have their own subjective assessment. There are too many moving parts to be able to form an objective conclusion. That's all I was saying.

pickarooney

War Heron is a bloody brilliant name.

troyzer

How did this turn into a Warburton Vs SOB debate?

Pocock is better than SOB on recent form anyway and Warburton is retired.

Clegg

pickarooney wrote: »

War Heron is a bloody brilliant name.

One hundred times better than Breadman anyway.

Clegg

Once again I'll say that Kieran Read is the best backrow in the world. Has the complete skillset. Quite similar to Heaslip skillset wise but even better. And considering Heaslip was nominated twice for world player of the year that shows how good Read is.

On a more general view on the topic of backrows currently playing, one of my favourite players to watch is Sebastian Negri. Smashes everything that's in his vicinity.

troyzer

Clegg wrote: »

Once again I'll say that Kieran Read is the best backrow in the world. Has the complete skillset. Quite similar to Heaslip skillset wise but even better. And considering Heaslip was nominated twice for world player of the year that shows how good Read is.

On a more general view on the topic of backrows currently playing, one of my favourite players to watch is Sebastian Negri. Smashes everything that's in his vicinity.

Still very young as well.

twinytwo

aloooof wrote: »

You absolutely can argue. Looking at results alone, Warburton didn't start the first game (which the Lions lost) but started the final 2 (which they won and drew). I'm not necessarily saying I agree, but I can see that a case can be made.

The lions had more to do with having sexton and farrell on the pitch at the same time than anything else

Yeah_Right

twinytwo wrote: »

The lions had more to do with having sexton and farrell on the pitch at the same time than anything else

The Lions result was down to some dodgy refereeing decisions robbing the ABs.

troyzer

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The Lions result was down to some dodgy refereeing decisions robbing the ABs.

Because the All Blacks have never been giving a cushy ride by the ref......