Spent case ID

Keplar240B

Hi,



Spent case ID.

I dug these up can anyone ID them

10mm at base. ~23mm long
no writing on end.






regards

Uinseann_16

Do you have a vernier calipers to get a accurate measurement of the case and then the rim?
Anyone else here have the faintest idea????
OP how many did you dig up? and where?

Uinseann_16

My guess
10.6mx25mmR a German service revolver cartridge which would make sense plenty of old german guns ended up here during WW1 and they were phasing out the M1879 and M1883 in favor of 7.65(certain lugers) and 9mm parabellum

It could also be a old rimfire cartridge im not fully convinced thats a primer in the center... bit narrow@10mm to be a .44henry flat though right length though
Yeah it might be a .44 henry flat (11.3x22.9mm) if it is there may still be priming powder in that rim :pac:. The base of it has me perplexed

Actually im just hoping its something a bit rare , My moneys on 9mm flobert looks like a old garden gun cartridge

Its a 9mm Flobert:D

Keplar240B

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

Do you have a vernier calipers to get a accurate measurement of the case and then the rim?
Anyone else here have the faintest idea????
OP how many did you dig up? and where?

I Don't have a vernier calipers , its definitely 10mm (not 9mm) across base or very very close, I have 9mm shells for comparison(spent ones)
I was thinking it might be .38 inch rimfire, the sizes match although i think the base does not match, also what would would that type of shell be doing in Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_rimfire


just one in my garden, which used to be farm.

Uinseann_16

Keplar240B wrote: »

I Don't have a vernier calipers , its definitely 10mm (not 9mm) across base or very very close, I have 9mm shells for comparison(spent ones)
I was thinking it might be .38 inch rimfire, the sizes match although i think the base does not match, also what would would that type of shell be doing in Ireland.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_rimfire


just one in my garden, which used to be farm.

There it is its something similar 9mm Flobert a 9mm or thereabouts "garden gun" a small shotgun cartridge for very close range vermin control pre WW1 and during the interwar period many shotgun cartridges used full brass cases.

By the way i assume you by 9mm you mean 9x19 parabellum theres lots of 9mm cartridges like 9x19,9x23,9x18 pistol cartridges to shotgun 9mm flobert cartridges to rifle cartridges like 9.3mmx64 brenneke which will drop a Bear...... ie 9mm simply denotes the bullet or bore diameter not the cartridge

its definitely not .38 rimfire(its only 22mm long) or .44 flat as i thought it appears to be a CF cartridge alright.So 9mm floberts out too as its rimfire...
Im actually quite perplexed ill have a read through some books i have and some internet resources and come back to you.

Uinseann_16

I think i have it!!:D:D
.380 long or .380 Rook rifle
Case type Rimmed, straight
Bullet diameter .375 in (9.5 mm)
Neck diameter .379 in (9.6 mm)
Base diameter .380 in (9.7 mm)
Rim diameter .430 in (10.9 mm)
Case length .944 in (24.0 mm)
Overall length 1.34 in (34 mm)

I wasnt too far off thinking garden gun a rook rifle was also a common vermin tool in the late 1800s:p best of luck finding a few more OP

From: Handloading for British Rook Rifles by Collin Greenwood, Handloader's Digest 1997.

380 Long

"This cartridge is an extended-case version of the British 380 revolver round. Colt took both rounds as his 38 Short and Long Colt cartridges, and early 38 Long Colts are identical with the 380 Long rook rifle except that, in the specimens we have measured, the Colt case is 1.2 inches in length against the .96-inch of the 380 Long. Overall cartridge length is the same. The bullet was outside lubricated, which means that its diameter is the same as that of the cartridge case and a reduced diameter heel allows it to fit into the case mouth. Colt later changed their cartridge to use inside lubricated bullets of nominal .358-inch diameter, but the rook rifle cartridge continued to use its heeled bullet, which is of .376-inch diameter for the nominal .380-inch bore of the rifle.

Cartridge cases for the 380 Long can therefore be made from 38 Special brass, ideally shortened to 1 inch. This also resolves any problems about primers. The bullet, however, should be heeled. We have swaged our heeled bullets in a bullet swaging die made for us by North Devon Firearm Services. This die fits into any single-station press and produces heeled bullets to any weights for which it is set. We used a 124-grain soft lead bullet which was dip-lubricated with an Alox lubricant also from NDFS. Any 38 Special dies will do the job perfectly well. Four grains of Unique on top of a CCI small pistol primer produced excellent accuracy in a couple of rifles, which have each harvested rabbits with this load.

Those who do not wish to be troubled with a heeled bullet could follow the path suggested by Lyman in their Cast Bullet Handbook (we referred to the 1957 edition). Their #35870 is round-nosed and has a deep hollow base. It was designed for "expansion in the 38 Long Colt with 3 grains of Unique." Other similar bullet moulds are probably available. Bullets designed for the 38 S&W or 38 Special will usually be found to be too small to produce useful accuracy. The 380 Long has been regarded as intrinsically inaccurate because users have failed either to use heeled bullets or those which will expand sufficiently, but it requires the choice of the right bullet to make it shoot well."

Dimensions
Rim .427"
Head .379
Mouth .376
Length .96
Bullet dia. .376
Bullet weight 124 grs.
Load 4.0 grs Revolver Neonite*
Muzzle vel. 1050 fps

*"…we have found that, in every case, we have been able to start with the same load of Unique which the tables suggest for the original powders."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.380_Long
Its a rare enough little cartridge by any chance was the your garden once part of a large estate?
If you find any more of these cases or maybe even a Rook rifle keep us informed im quite interested.
http://www.municion.org/38/380LongRevolverCF.htm

Keplar240B

Uinseann_16 wrote: »

I think i have it!!:D:D
.380 long or .380 Rook rifle
...

I wasnt too far off thinking garden gun a rook rifle was also a common vermin tool in the late 1800s:p best of luck finding a few more OP

From: Handloading for British Rook Rifles by Collin Greenwood, Handloader's Digest 1997.

380 Long

....

.......

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.380_Long
Its a rare enough little cartridge by any chance was the your garden once part of a large estate?
If you find any more of these cases or maybe even a Rook rifle keep us informed im quite interested.
http://www.municion.org/38/380LongRevolverCF.htm

Thanks, that's a match alright!

it was not an estate as such but It was a pretty big farm, in that one of the buildings was very substantial, long thick walls, high gables. I think it might have been a stables.
The city housing overran it in the 70's but they never knocked the walls they used them as the backs of the garden walls. So it still stands sort of.

Uinseann_16

Keplar240B wrote: »

Thanks, that's a match alright!

it was not an estate as such but It was a pretty big farm, in that one of the buildings was very substantial, long thick walls, high gables. I think it might have been a stables.
The city housing overran it in the 70's but they never knocked the walls they used them as the backs of the garden walls. So it still stands sort of.

Yeah thats a early cartridge as its copper not brass, My thinking behind estate is that back then a Rook rifle wouldve cost quite a bit as fair as i can tell the majority in .380 rook were Westley Richards and Holland and Holland(expensive brands) though greener did make a few in a martini henry style action which would've been more affordable. It wouldve been quite a important tool around the farm
Chances are you might find some more cases

I wonder will someone one day find the thousands of .22 casings ive scattered round the place:P