little bit of voltage present on earth

Andy From Sligo

got one of these phase tester screwdrivers (the one where the neon lights up in the handle) and touched it on the screws holding in a plastic single blanking onto a sunken metal back box. The light on the screwdriver only very faintly lights, not at full brightness as if you have touched it right onto a live terminal ... but even so i am surprised that there is some voltage present at all - the electrics go through a RCD/ELCB and MCB in the fuseboard and they havent tripped and if I touch the screw(s) of the blanking plate I am getting no shock whatsoever, not even a tiny one. and it doesnt trip the RCB/ELCB etc

Its a strange one, what do you reckon? what could be causing voltage there, even albeit tiny ?

punisher5112

Don't use them they are pure Sh1te

Risteard81

Haven't heard from you in a while... As stated a phase tester proves nothing.

10-10-20

Induced via capacitance or induction, I'd guess. Do you have good earth continuity and do other sockets show the same reaction?

Andy From Sligo

10-10-20 wrote: »

Induced via capacitance or induction, I'd guess. Do you have good earth continuity and do other sockets show the same reaction?

thanks - its not on the sockets circuit, nor the lighting circuit. its on the heating circuit (this blanking plate covers where a heating room-stat was) when I put the phase tester onto the screws of sockets or light switches it does not light at all.

so on the heating is just outdoor oil boiler and the other roomstats and heating timer all proteced by a b10 breaker and going through ELCB/RCB

2011

Throw it in the nearest bin.
These are banned from many sites for good reason.

punisher5112

Fluke testers are the go to for them tests.

Andy From Sligo

ok .. pushing to one side that these phase testers are rubbish/flukes - its obviously showing up a bit of voltage

Andy From Sligo

just pulled this out of my toolbox - dont know where i got it from .. most probably some ol cheap euro shop - anyway when i hold it onto the screw 110v shows up on the LCD panel ... absolutely no way though cause I would get a jolt with 110v if i touched it - must be crap

punisher5112

Look up Fluke testers then you will see what a real tester looks like.

These yolks?
Almost as bad.

Ocassional false positives.
Only prove live. Cannot prove dead.
Widow-maker.

I use plug in testers or a meter, or myself when I'm being willfully stupid instead of ignorantly so.

A voltage between earth and neutral means either the earth is a slightly different potential to the earth electrode(s) or the generator/transformer is floating, or the "polarity" is incorrect or the neutral has dropped...it all depends on the voltage magnitude and other considerations.

Earth to phase is usually 230Vac in most earthed low voltage installations. Measuring it often trips RCBOs.

Jack Moore

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

just pulled this out of my toolbox - dont know where i got it from .. most probably some ol cheap euro shop - anyway when i hold it onto the screw 110v shows up on the LCD panel ... absolutely no way though cause I would get a jolt with 110v if i touched it - must be crap

You can’t feel volts
Amps is what you need to feel

Volts are what make you feel the amps.

2011

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

ok .. pushing to one side that these phase testers are rubbish/flukes - its obviously showing up a bit of voltage

Do you think so?
How much, 5 volts, 50 volts, 120 volts, 230 volts?
AC or DC?

The truth is it is impossible know. Also if this does not illuminate when touching a conductor I would not believe it either. The danger is that some people are under the impression that these devices can be trusted.

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

These yolks?
Almost as bad.

Agreed, only slightly less dangerous.

Sleeper12

The amount of times people promise me that the shower has power over the phone & got me to get there only to find out the shower doesn't have 230 volts.

As everyone say bin it. They are a waste of time and for the most part all they tell you is that the bulb works. I hate them.

Risteard81

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Volts are what make you feel the amps.

It's the volts that jolt but the mills that kill.

It's the voltage that overcomes the resistance of the skin and the current that burns & interferes with the electrochemical signals of the brain and heart.

They are not mutually exclusive.

punisher5112

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

It's the voltage that overcomes the resistance of the skin and the current that burns & interferes with the electrochemical signals of the brain and heart.

They are not mutually exclusive.

I find it best when I don't use a fork or knive but find they are quite similar in design to the light up faze testers.....

I've had a few shocks over the years and lost some great cutters due to the environment I worked in where realistically we couldn't turn anything off.

Other would be getting told sure of course it's off then bang.....

Cut one conductor at a time and don't be the fuse.
It's never the fault of the person who says it is off.
Our job is diagnostics, the onus is on us to validate theories, verify claims and gather evidence.

anna 'nuther thing...milli is an SI unit prefix; you can have milliAmps, milliVolts, milliWatts....

I've at least two sets of snips that transmuted to cable strippers...I give them to lads for jobs like when they ask for my copper cutters to cut their steel wire. :mad::rolleyes:

punisher5112

Cowboys ted

I was referring to myself.

..and proud of it.
We're not all bad, like not all RECs are good.

punisher5112

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

I was referring to myself.

..and proud of it.
We're not all bad, like not all RECs are good.

Unfortunately I was let go as an apprentice in the bust so had to move on to other things.

I can't afford to be an apprentice. It's cheaper for me to hire a sparks to collaborate with.
Keep on truckin'

There's more to life than hanging T&E off rafters, makin' tea and two way switched circuits.

Andy From Sligo

i have had shocks since i were aged 7 - used to go putting fingers into bayonet light bulb sockets one in a bar in a holiday camp .. then later on when a fridge bulb was removed from inside the fridge - then I used to take the backs off old valve type tv's and radiograms and got a few bolts off them ... I once cut into a T&E 5amp lighting circuit in the loft with a pair of pliers beleiving i pulled the fuse from the upstairs and bang (i had removed the downstairs lights fuse instead) made shíte of the pliers but i was grateful of the rubber coated handles - when I moved to Ireland was doing up an old wreck of a cottage and good ol' ESB put the live tail in the aluminium guttering with a join and a bit of black insulation tape wrapped around and when i touched the guttering i got a nice little shock (werent the full 230v I suppose, but enough to shoot the hand away .... I'm still alive!

early recollection of my grandad checking to see if live was getting to the ceiling pendant by sticking his finger on the terminal and getting me to turn on the light switch .. hardly flinching as the 240v uk electric went down his finger through is body to earth ...

I think getting a shock is over-rated

Sleeper12

Funny enough my first shock was around age 7 too. Our Christmas tree lights were joined together with a male / female bayonet fitting. Being the curious person that I am I stuck my fingers in the bayonet fitting.

Andy From Sligo

oh, I forgot another shock I got as a nipper - I am old enough to remember when 13a plugs never had those black bits of plastic on the neutral and live pins and i was pulling out the plug (the sockets back in the day never had switches on either) and my fingers touched the pin(s) anyway got a nice jolt then ... and who else hasnt had a back of a 13a plug come apart as they are removing the plug from the socket ... or a stray strand of wire sticking out on a 13a plug? (and remember back in the day no appliances came with any fitted plugs and you had to wire up your own 13a plugs onto stuff when you bought it new - kids have got it so easy these days the little snowflakes ) - and we are talking back in the day where MCB's or ELCB's where not even a twinkle in an electricians eye ...

Electrification was originally for lighting. The first washing machines were plugged into light bulb sockets.
Bittovan ordeal to disconnect the screw caps when grandma peggy was being discombobulated by unprotected machinery...

Andy From Sligo

Sir Liamalot wrote: »

Electrification was originally for lighting. The first washing machines were plugged into light bulb sockets....

I remember my mum used to plug her electric iron into the light bulb sockets , it had that brown twisted material type insulation and a Bakelite bayonet plug on the end ... and of course not earthed

brightspark

Some reading for those who think nobody dies from electric shocks!

https://www.hsa.ie/eng/Topics/Electricity/Dangers_of_Electricity/Electrical_Fatality_Statistics/Description_of_Elec_1996_Fatalaties_to_2017.pdf


Note the most recent one.."Accessible part became live".

punisher5112

On the ladder part I've come close to it myself.

Always look up and around anywhere you intend on placing ladder or plan on moving it while extended.

Andy From Sligo

makes for interesting reading that HSA list! :eek: - RIP to all those who lost their lives. I couldnt even comprehend how it must feel like to have so many kvolts like some of them

no wonder they put out this advert - can you envisage cutting the hedge and into an overhead line!

here are some unusual ones i have picked out from the hsa pdf:

Tree-Felling- Wet rope
touched OH Line

Mobile home became
live

Possibly self inflicted

Vandalised Lamp-post

Welder in Hospital

Guttering

Exploding Circuit
Breaker

Child Climbed into Substation

Plumbing in Kitchen

Changing Bulb

Toddler-Nail in Socket

Man on Dart Powerline

Having a shower

Mains on Electric Fence

Roofer Hit Line

brightspark

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

makes for interesting reading that HSA list! :eek: - RIP to all those who lost their lives.

Perhaps it will help you and others understand why some of us are so fanatical about making sure electrical work is done properly and don't like it when others are too complacent.

Andy From Sligo

when we first moved to Ireland in the 90's there was an old bottle type consumer unit in our rural derelict cottage - looked totally unsafe and I had bought over a brand new Wylex consumer box fitted with MCB's and an ELCB from where I worked ... looking back its was a stupid thing to do , but money was tight and it was going to cost hundreds for an electrician to fit the consumer box so (because the ESB large bakelite fuse had a tamper proof wire thing on it) I got a large screwdriver with thick insulation - wore some thick soled wellies , got up on a wooden ladder and very carefully took out the live conducter holding its insulation with a pair of insulated pliers and put it into the Wylex box double pole mains switch, it would have been like watching someone disconnect the right wires for a bomb and as I said it was a pretty stupid dangerous thing to do - I realise I could have got the 230v or it could have taken out the ESB fuse with a big bang but anyway thats the craic thats what I did . when it was wired up theres a couple of times the breakers tripped (one when there was a fault on a washing machine we had an another on a faulty light switch) and a time when damp got into an outdoor light fitting - and I was quite pleased because I rather that happened on a consumer box with ELCB and MCB's - I dont think there were any regulations in them days , if they were they were no way as strict as todays regulations and you certainly didnt have to get a qualified electrician to wire up the place or put in extra sockets or anything any old handyman to wire up stuff like lights and switches without certificates .. well especially in rural Ireland. I dont know what it was like other areas. it was like a different era back then - I dont even think back in the 90's Ireland were even using MCB's I think they were still bottle fuses , albeit not in china/porcelain but in white plastic .. but still.

We had to get ESB man out once where I had to call them because I was getting shocks off the guttering - the ESB had hooked up the electrics to the cottage and instead of putting the wires from the pole onto a stand off bracket on a gable wall they just joined up the cable and put insulation tape around them then laid them in the gutter - of course when it was raining or moist air the whole guttering became live

anyway an ESB bloke came out to fit whole new tails straight to the consumer box from the consumer box to the wooden pole without joins in it - and when he come around he looked at the wylex box and just said "where's that fusebox from?, not seen one like that before" - oh our electrician who fitted it got it from the UK I said - ah right he said and just continued to wire up the tails to the mains switch on the consumer board and that was that ! - we were in that house for over 10 years anyway and everything was grand .. most probably a lot safer with MCB's and ELCB than other old cottages which still had the bottle fuse type units.

Andy From Sligo

brightspark wrote: »

Perhaps it will help you and others understand why some of us are so fanatical about making sure electrical work is done properly and don't like it when others are too complacent.

oh yes - indeed of course it does .. and I have even heard of others in the past who couldnt even wire up a 13a plug attempt to fix their house wiring or put in an extra socket - crazy

I suppose if people want to save money they go down that road , its silly and dangerous indeed but thats what happens.

Its like the people who if they have a fault on their car want to roll up their sleeves and attempt it instead of leaving it into a garage .. not the same thing as doing your own electrics but you know what I mean.

Thankfully with that HSA thing the majoritory of those things over the years were 'accidents' and not due to people carrying out their own electrical work so thats one thing

EdgeCase

Worst I've ever come across was an old relative from North Yorkshire. She was in her 80s had a house with EXTREMELY old wiring and the old fashioned British fuses that used fuse wire. You literally "mended" a fuse by replacing the wire between two screw terminals.

Anyway she had become tired of replacing fuses so stripped down some heavy gauge twin and earth and wired lumps of the conductors between the terminals.

I noticed a slight "hot electrics" smell in the hall. Went up to investigate and the fuses were so hot you couldn't even touch the exterior of the fuse board!
I cut the power and opened the cover and they were still glowing!!

She had also added on loads of extra sockets over the years just daisy chaining them onto whatever circuits she could find and putting in "stronger fuses".

We ended up doing a bit of a whip around and paying to get her house rewired and done that week. It was a relatively small house so wasn't that big a deal to do.

She was a nightmare for DIY though and thought nothing of just having a go at the wiring.

Andy From Sligo

EdgeCase wrote: »

Worst I've ever come across was an old relative from North Yorkshire. She was in her 80s had a house with EXTREMELY old wiring and the old fashioned British fuses that used fuse wire. You literally "mended" a fuse by replacing the wire between two screw terminals.

Anyway she had become tired of replacing fuses so stripped down some heavy gauge twin and earth and wired lumps of the conductors between the terminals.

I noticed a slight "hot electrics" smell in the hall. Went up to investigate and the fuses were so hot you couldn't even touch the exterior of the fuse board!
I cut the power and opened the cover and they were still glowing!!

She had also added on loads of extra sockets over the years just daisy chaining them onto whatever circuits she could find and putting in "stronger fuses".

We ended up doing a bit of a whip around and paying to get her house rewired and done that week. It was a relatively small house so wasn't that big a deal to do.

She was a nightmare for DIY though and thought nothing of just having a go at the wiring.

my grandad used to 'repair' fuses in his 13a plugs with the foil from his fag packet or a bit of tin foil LOL

brightspark

Not my pic, but I have seen welders do this frequently

https://www.veriserv.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/GPenm-plug-with-bolt.jpg

Andy From Sligo

brightspark wrote: »

Not my pic, but I have seen welders do this frequently

https://www.veriserv.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/04/GPenm-plug-with-bolt.jpg

wow - never seen that :eek:

Thammer

Andy From Sligo wrote: »

wow - never seen that :eek:

Would be common enough alright

Probably less so now with the prevalence of 16amp sockets