New Coin

Jay Dee

Hi,

Just seen the Central Bank of Ireland are selling a new € 15 euro coin for € 60.00 + pp.
Is this even legal ?
If not, how do you get in on the act ??

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/special-15-coin-honours-late-guitar-great-rory-gallagher-1.3631276

Jay

Jim Bob Scratcher

I bet Migey D Higgins won't have to pay 60 euro for one.

JupiterKid

What I want to know is when will they get rid of 1 and 2c coins?

Useless shrapnel.

JupiterKid

What I want to know is when will they get rid of 1 and 2c coins?

Useless shrapnel.

Are Am Eye

I'd like to buy one. Pay with four fifteen euro coins. That'd have them thinking for a while.

dxhound2005

Anyone who got the €100 1916 commemoration gold coin made a bit of a killing.

Franz Von Peppercorn

JupiterKid wrote: »

What I want to know is when will they get rid of 1 and 2c coins?

Useless shrapnel.

Lots of shops have.

Skylinehead

JupiterKid wrote: »

What I want to know is when will they get rid of 1 and 2c coins?

Useless shrapnel.

It'll happen about, ooh, 3 years ago?

Snotty

Jay Dee wrote: »

.
Is this even legal ?

What, the selling something for more than you "think" it's worth, or the €15 coin?

dxhound2005

It's legal, but not compulsory.

Omackeral

Excellent, it will fit snugly in my Hugo Boss fitted suit.

FanadMan

What the hell is wrong with you children? This is a Rory Gallagher commemoration coin! If I had the money, I'd buy one. Hell, if I had enough money I'd buy a few of them.

paleoperson

FanadMan wrote: »

What the hell is wrong with you children? This is a Rory Gallagher commemoration coin! If I had the money, I'd buy one. Hell, if I had enough money I'd buy a few of them.

Where does the money go?

Peregrinus

paleoperson wrote: »

Where does the money go?

To the Central Bank.

Seigneurage is the technical term for the profit made by a currency issuer on the difference between the cost of producing the notes/coin and their value on issue. The Central Bank earns seigneurage on all the currency it issues, since it all costs less than face value to produce. Seigneurage is mostly a loan - when a note or coin is worn out it is returned to the Bank who have to refund the value they received when they issued it. But a proportion of notes and coins are never returned, so the Bank gets to keep the seigneurage permanently. Commemorative issues like this are generally never returned.

They'll probably earn a somewhat higher rate of seigneurage on this particular currency (though possibly not; with such a small number of coins being minted, the unit cost of minting each coin could be quite high).

Either way, because of the small number of coins involved the amount of seigneurage will be trivial in the overall financing of the Bank.

pleas advice

A thumb of gold, by god, to gauge an oat

Peregrinus

Jay Dee wrote: »

Is this even legal ?
If not, how do you get in on the act ??

Anyone can issue and sell commemorative "coins" for any price they like, as long as they don't hold them out as being legal tender.

mad m

I bought Michael Collins commemorative coins for my dad , think they were 90 euro for the 2 in a special box. They are on eBay from 190-275 so happy out, well not that he’d sell them.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Peregrinus wrote: »

To the Central Bank.

Seigneurage is the technical term for the profit made by a currency issuer on the difference between the cost of producing the notes/coin and their value on issue. The Central Bank earns seigneurage on all the currency it issues, since it all costs less than face value to produce. Seigneurage is mostly a loan - when a note or coin is worn out it is returned to the Bank who have to refund the value they received when they issued it. But a proportion of notes and coins are never returned, so the Bank gets to keep the seigneurage permanently. Commemorative issues like this are generally never returned.

They'll probably earn a somewhat higher rate of seigneurage on this particular currency (though possibly not; with such a small number of coins being minted, the unit cost of minting each coin could be quite high).

Either way, because of the small number of coins involved the amount of seigneurage will be trivial in the overall financing of the Bank.

Incorrect. The correct answer is “to the Man”.

Franz Von Peppercorn

Peregrinus wrote: »

Anyone can issue and sell commemorative "coins" for any price they like, as long as they don't hold them out as being legal tender.

Presumably this is legal tender although you’d be stupid to use it at face value.

The Tetrarch

A Phil Lynott coin due in 2019.

Peregrinus

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Presumably this is legal tender although you’d be stupid to use it at face value.

This one is legal tender, and commemorative coins which are legal tender have a certain cachet as collectible items precisely because there are relatively few institutions authorised to make legal tender issues. Therefore they are more valuable as collectors' items than the non-legal tender alternatives. But of course that enhanced value makes it less and less likely that they will ever actually be spent as legal tender.

biko

Jay Dee wrote: »

Is this even legal?

The secret is in the words "legal tender"

pleas advice

biko wrote: »

The secret is in the words "legal tender"

is it legal to release 'legal tender' at four times its face value? surely it should only cost what it's legally worth

paleoperson

Peregrinus wrote: »

To the Central Bank.

Seigneurage is the technical term for the profit made by a currency issuer on the difference between the cost of producing the notes/coin and their value on issue. The Central Bank earns seigneurage on all the currency it issues, since it all costs less than face value to produce. Seigneurage is mostly a loan - when a note or coin is worn out it is returned to the Bank who have to refund the value they received when they issued it. But a proportion of notes and coins are never returned, so the Bank gets to keep the seigneurage permanently. Commemorative issues like this are generally never returned.

They'll probably earn a somewhat higher rate of seigneurage on this particular currency (though possibly not; with such a small number of coins being minted, the unit cost of minting each coin could be quite high).

Either way, because of the small number of coins involved the amount of seigneurage will be trivial in the overall financing of the Bank.

What a scam. I thought the commemoration organization or a related facility would get something out of it but nothing?

That's insane.

And he is telling us:

FanadMan wrote: »

What the hell is wrong with you children? This is a Rory Gallagher commemoration coin! If I had the money, I'd buy one. Hell, if I had enough money I'd buy a few of them.

So come back a minute FanadMan, explain yourself, what is wrong with people? Why should anyone buy "money" at four times its cost. What good will it do to anyone except pissing money down the toilet?

paleoperson

paleoperson wrote: »

So come back a minute FanadMan, explain yourself, what is wrong with people? Why should anyone buy "money" at four times its cost. What good will it do to anyone except pissing money down the toilet?

if it's any consolation, the Central Bank of Ireland hands over all of its profit to the State every year.

It's the least evil financial institution ever to have opened its doors in this country. Well, apart from that fat-robot-lookalike it erected on Dame Street

Peregrinus

pleas advice wrote: »

is it legal to release 'legal tender' at four times its face value? surely it should only cost what it's legally worth

Of course it's legal. Why wouldn't it be?

paleoperson wrote: »

Why should anyone buy "money" at four times its cost.

All currency is issued for more than it costs to produce. What, you think the Central Bank spends 20 cents minting a 10-cent coin?

pleas advice wrote: »

What good will it do to anyone except pissing money down the toilet?

In this case, the people who buy the coins (of whom I will not be one) will be paying for the souvenir value of a commemorative edition, and in some cases in at least the hope that the coin will have a collectible value - i.e. you can laer sell it to other collectors for more than face value.

This is't a novel idea. There's a huge market in collectible coins, stamps, etc, most of which sell for more than their face value. Whether these particular coins will, in the future, trade at more than their issue price remains to be seen. I suspect the chances of huge profits for collectors are not great; the whole point of pricing commemorative issues like this is to try to capture for the taxpayer some or all of the "collectibility" value of the coins, rather than giving it away to private individuals.

pleas advice

Peregrinus wrote: »

Of course it's legal. Why wouldn't it be?

So, I go to the central bank with bags of 1 cent and two cent coins to exchange for something less bulky, say I have twenty bags of each, thats 60 euro, and the man behind the counter gives me one nice shiny new coin in return. Thats grand, says I. But as soon as he hands it to me, its lost 75% of it's value. I say 'wait a second there, mister. I think I'd rather my own money back, thank you very much' and he says fine, and hands me back fifteen bags of one cent coins...

All currency is issued for more than it costs to produce. What, you think the Central Bank spends 20 cents minting a 10-cent coin?

I know in the US, for every cent thats minted, it costs something like 1.2 cent

Peregrinus

pleas advice wrote: »

So, I go to the central bank with bags of 1 cent and two cent coins to exchange for something less bulky, say I have twenty bags of each, thats 60 euro, and the man behind the counter gives me one nice shiny new coin in return. Thats grand, says I. But as soon as he hands it to me, its lost 75% of it's value. I say 'wait a second there, mister. I think I'd rather my own money back, thank you very much' and he says fine, and hands me back fifteen bags of one cent coins...

Well, you could avoid the problem just by bringing your small change to your local bank, which is probably going to be more convenient for you anyway.

But if you bring it to Dame Street, they're not going to offer you a specially-priced commemorative coin issue (and if they do you can reject it; nobody is obliged to buy this coin); they're going to offer you currency already in circulation, at face value.

pleas advice wrote: »

I know in the US, for every cent thats minted, it costs something like 1.2 cent

Yes. And in some eurozone countries, it costs more than a cent to mint a 1-cent coint. This is known as negative seigneurage. In some countries central banks respond by discouraging the use of the coins and encouraging the rounding of cash payments to the nearest 5 cents. In others they bear the cost on the grounds that it makes for a more efficient payment system, and that it is more than covered by the positive seigneurage on other coins and notes.

riffmongous

It's just a collector's item. I've seen a few nice looking ones issued internationally I've been tempted to get at times, purely just for putting on the mantelpiece.

Peregrinus

Oh, it's extremely common. The Australian mint currently has a variety of commemorative $1 coins on sale at prices that vary from $15 to $150, depending on the subject of the commemoration, the metal content of the coin and the number of coins struck. In the UK right now you can by a Peter Rabbit 50p piece for £55, or a £10 coin commemorating the 1918 armistice for £8,565. (It's struck in solid gold, and weights 142 g.) In the US, the World War I commemorative silver dollar is a more modestly-priced $56.95. In France, the monnaie will issue you with a complete set of Simone Weil commemoratives (cumulative face value €3.88) for €43.00. Italy offers better value to the budget-conscious collector, with commemorative sets having a face value of €5.88 on sale for just €24.00. You can choose from a wide range of subjects, including "Artistic Treasures of Amatrice", "Women in Art - Artemisia Gentileschi" and "60th Anniversary of the foundation of the Ministry of Health".

paleoperson

riffmongous wrote: »

It's just a collector's item. I've seen a few nice looking ones issued internationally I've been tempted to get at times, purely just for putting on the mantelpiece.

How is it a collector's item if it has nothing to do with the subject of it? It's not going to the family of Rory Gallagher, it's not going to a good cause, it's going straight to the Central Bank. Can that be really called a collector's item? It seems like if someone started putting Michael Jackson on t-shirts and selling them for a big profit and you started buying it because you said it was a "collector's item". Like... how is it a collector's item when it's a completely unrelated 3rd party that is producing it? A collector's item for stupid people maybe.

Your Face

Surely a bad penny would be more apt.

riffmongous

paleoperson wrote: »

How is it a collector's item if it has nothing to do with the subject of it? It's not going to the family of Rory Gallagher, it's not going to a good cause, it's going straight to the Central Bank. Can that be really called a collector's item? It seems like if someone started putting Michael Jackson on t-shirts and selling them for a big profit and you started buying it because you said it was a "collector's item". Like... how is it a collector's item when it's a completely unrelated 3rd party that is producing it? A collector's item for stupid people maybe.

Yes.. for people who collect coins...

Franz Von Peppercorn

paleoperson wrote: »

How is it a collector's item if it has nothing to do with the subject of it? It's not going to the family of Rory Gallagher, it's not going to a good cause, it's going straight to the Central Bank. Can that be really called a collector's item? It seems like if someone started putting Michael Jackson on t-shirts and selling them for a big profit and you started buying it because you said it was a "collector's item". Like... how is it a collector's item when it's a completely unrelated 3rd party that is producing it? A collector's item for stupid people maybe.

A collector’s item is...

Something that people collect.

You know that a penny farthing costs more than a penny to buy I presume.

Beasty

3000 x €60. €180k. I'm tempted but will await Phil's arrival before piling in....


:pac:

Beasty

Oh and by the way. The Royal Mint issue £5 coins for £2,000. Yes they are commemorative and yes they are gold. They are also legal tender, but I've never picked up one in my change. Have a few solid silver £500 coins which weigh in at 1kg. Again legal tender

Allinall

Jay Dee wrote: »

Hi,

Just seen the Central Bank of Ireland are selling a new € 15 euro coin for € 60.00 + pp.
Is this even legal ?
If not, how do you get in on the act ??

https://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/special-15-coin-honours-late-guitar-great-rory-gallagher-1.3631276

Jay

Stick a fiver up on Donedesl for €20 and see how you get on.

Grayson

If I walk into a comic shop tomorrow and buy a comic, I own probably about a few cents worth of paper. The same goes for books and loads of other things. With the comic it could become a collectible in a few years or it might not. It could be worth hundreds or thousands or even just a few cents. If I like comics and I'm a collector I buy the comic, read it and put it away. Either way, that comic is technically worth less than I paid for it. It's the same with loads of things. Pretty much everything you buy will have a markup on it. The only difference with collectibles is that it may be worth more in the future.

Capt'n Midnight

Jay Dee wrote: »

Hi,

Just seen the Central Bank of Ireland are selling a new € 15 euro coin for € 60.00 + pp.
Is this even legal ?

€15 for the coin.

€45 postage and packaging.

dxhound2005

Just a note of warning. These €15 Irish coins are not legal tender in other Euro Zone countries. So don't be going trying to spend them in Spain on your holidays.

paleoperson

Grayson wrote: »

If I walk into a comic shop tomorrow and buy a comic, I own probably about a few cents worth of paper. The same goes for books and loads of other things. With the comic it could become a collectible in a few years or it might not. It could be worth hundreds or thousands or even just a few cents. If I like comics and I'm a collector I buy the comic, read it and put it away. Either way, that comic is technically worth less than I paid for it. It's the same with loads of things. Pretty much everything you buy will have a markup on it. The only difference with collectibles is that it may be worth more in the future.

The comic book could become a collectible if it's a part of history. That's the whole point of something being noteworthy or a collectible. What did you think it just happened by random chance? You don't just create something and automatically it may be a collectible.

The comic is an official product created by the writers. It wouldn't be the same as if I wrote out a comic, printed it out and started selling it in my backyard and you came along saying "oh man, I like the real comic, I'll buy this".

The only way this would make any sense is if you think there's an inherent art or niceness about the coins. It has nothing to do with Rory Gallagher, his foundation or what he stood for, even though they're putting his name on it. Also buying something purely in the hopes of reselling it later is hardly the most noble thing.

Peregrinus

paleoperson wrote: »

The comic book could become a collectible if it's a part of history. That's the whole point of something being noteworthy or a collectible. What did you think it just happened by random chance? You don't just create something and automatically it may be a collectible.

Sure you do. There's a whole industry around the manufacture of souvenirs and collectibles, from snowglobes to ornamental thimbles to coins to postage stamps.
Sure, thimbles can in fact be used for sewing and postage stamps for sending letters and at a pinch a snowglobe can serve as a paperweight, but there's no denying that huge quantities of these things are produced and sold with the primary purpose of not being used for anything at all, just collected.

paleoperson

Peregrinus wrote: »

Sure you do. There's a whole industry around the manufacture of souvenirs and collectibles, from snowglobes to ornamental thimbles to coins to postage stamps.
Sure, thimbles can in fact be used for sewing and postage stamps for sending letters and at a pinch a snowglobe can serve as a paperweight, but there's no denying that huge quantities of these things are produced and sold with the primary purpose of not being used for anything at all, just collected.

Souvenirs can at least be said to be off that place though, they have a connection to it. They're something to remember the place by. If there was a hurley that Michael Collins or Christy Ring used up for sale, then I think that would be worth quite something. If on the other hand someone said they were making a hurley and putting Michael Collins name on it in commemoration of Michael Collins... :rolleyes: you see how that's different?

Postage stamps are a similar idea alright but with one key difference - a €1 postage stamp is still going to cost €1, right? It won't cost you €5 to buy it with the excuse that they had to commission an artist to design it. I don't think anyone would have a problem with it if people weren't being asked to pay for it. However not only are they being asked to pay but one poster here was criticizing people for not buying it to "commemorate" this person when the money is going straight into the bank.

Collectibles don't always have to have use, I don't think I ever said that they did. Also what is the connection with currency? Euros are produced and controlled by the EU on behalf of us all, what has any of this got to do with currency? Postage stamps are again the most similar thing to something sensible here - it's credible that people would like to remember national historic figures on postage stamps and to pay an extremely small fraction of a cent in their taxes to do so. I really think it's the costing of money that is the issue here. People can do what they like with their money, but I can't help but feel they're being cheated a bit.

Peregrinus

paleoperson wrote: »

Souvenirs can at least be said to be off that place though, they have a connection to it.

Regardless of where they are souvenirs of, they’re mostly made in China these days, paleo. Besides, there are lots of snowglobes, etc, that are not of anywhere in particular; they are just made to be collected.

paleoperson wrote: »

They're something to remember the place by. If there was a hurley that Michael Collins or Christy Ring used up for sale, then I think that would be worth quite something. If on the other hand someone said they were making a hurley and putting Michael Collins name on it in commemoration of Michael Collins... :rolleyes: you see how that's different?

I do see how it’s different. But the fact remains that there is a ready market for both kinds of collectible.

paleoperson wrote: »

Postage stamps are a similar idea alright but with one key difference - a €1 postage stamp is still going to cost €1, right?

This is not always right; some countries issue collectible sets for above face value. Collectors will pay extra in order to have, e.g. all the stamps in a particular series in a single perforated sheet. And, even when it is right, so what? If they are issuing the stamp as a collectible, the postal authorities can print any value they like on it; they know it’s not going to be used to pay for postal services. The profit to them is the difference between the cost of printing the stamp, which is fractions of a cent, and the amount they get when they sell it. The value that’s actually printed on the stamp is irrelevant, both to the issuing post office and to the collector. Some countries issue stamps aimed at collectors that actually can’t be used for postal purposes; many more issues stamps mainly to collectors and only secondarily for postal purposes. And most of these stamps are bought by people who live in other countries; even if they wanted to use them for postal purposes, they couldn’t, unless they travelled to the country of issue in order to post their letters.

So, yeah, the value printed on collectible stamps is in most cases practically meaningless, and in some cases actually meaningless.

paleoperson wrote: »

I don't think anyone would have a problem with it if people weren't being asked to pay for it. However not only are they being asked to pay but one poster here was criticizing people for not buying it to "commemorate" this person when the money is going straight into the bank.

Most people don’t have a problem with it even though people are being asked to pay for it. A limited-edition commemorative coin has value (a) for aesthetic reasons, if it is well-designed, and (b) for reasons of scarcity; it is much rarer than a standard coin. In neither case does the face value of the coin have any impact on the value; the face value only matters if you intend to spend the coin, and the whole point of collectible coins is that you don’t spend them.

I agree that it’s absurd to criticise someone for not buying a collectible coin; if you don’t wabnt to collect the coin, why would you buy it? But the one comment of that nature that appeared in this thread I took to be tongue-in-cheek.

paleoperson wrote: »

Collectibles don't always have to have use, I don't think I ever said that they did. Also what is the connection with currency? Euros are produced and controlled by the EU on behalf of us all, what has any of this got to do with currency?

Not understanding your point here; notes and coins are currency. And it’s not techinically true to say that Euros are produced by the EU; most euro banknotes (92%) are produced by the central banks of one or other of the eurozone countries; only 8% are produced by the European Central Bank. And euro coins are all produced by one or other of the euro countries; the ECB doesn’t issue them at all.

paleoperson wrote: »

Postage stamps are again the most similar thing to something sensible here - it's credible that people would like to remember national historic figures on postage stamps and to pay an extremely small fraction of a cent in their taxes to do so. I really think it's the costing of money that is the issue here. People can do what they like with their money, but I can't help but feel they're being cheated a bit.

They’re not being cheated at all, as long as they derive value from the possession of the coin which (to them) is worth at least what they paid for it.

Look at it this way; a regular euro coin is worth one euro, because you can exchange it for goods or services of that value. It may only cost a couple of cents to produce, so the central bank makes a huge profit on it, but you wouldn’t say that people are being cheated for that reason.

Right. A collectible euro coin is, to the collector who pays for it, worth whatever he paid for it. (If it weren’t, he wouldn’t buy it.) Sure, he can only exchange it directly, for one euro’s worth of goods or services, but the pleasure and utility he gets from possessing it is worth more than one euro to him (which is why he doesn’t spend it.) Furthermore, if he ever tires of possessing it, he won’t go and spend it; he’ll sell it to another collector and expect to receive more than face value, which he can then spend as he wishes. So even in that case he’ll end up with more than a euro’s worth of goods and services.