Cows bunching -Pour on???

lefthooker

Anybody have an opinion on this?

My cows have been doing this quite a lot lately, and I’ve noticed it in neighbouring herds too, all crammed into a corner of their paddock, resulting in the life being trampled out of the grass and blackened with sh1t. My first guess is flies. I always gave a pour on on the first of the month during the season but lately every 2-3 weeks. Tried a few different brands this summer too. It’s not a fortnight since they were last done and I found them at it again this evening.

Is it a behavioural thing or have the fly pour ons become absolute rubbish?

Opinions welcome.

whelan2

Is there a bull with them?

lefthooker

whelan2 wrote: »

Is there a bull with them?

No bulls since end of July.

patsy_mccabe

I don't understand how these fly pour-ons work? Shur, flies come and go. Even if they get pour-on them, it will take a while for them to die. Tomorrow more flies come.

lefthooker

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I don't understand how these fly pour-ons work? Shur, flies come and go. Even if they get pour-on them, it will take a while for them to die. Tomorrow more flies come.

More fly repellent than killer I’d guess.

Never wrestle with pigs

patsy_mccabe wrote: »

I don't understand how these fly pour-ons work? Shur, flies come and go. Even if they get pour-on them, it will take a while for them to die. Tomorrow more flies come.

Spot on works like vitamin b works for us with mozzies. They no longer get whatever smell that attracts them so they won't hang around to breed on them or in their dung. It doesn't kill them just makes the cows un attractive to them.

On my wet rushy ground if cows are not done they would go insane with the amount of fly's on them. Not one on them when done. Very easy to spot one that I missed. Most of the time I just get them in the field with a pick of meal and don't need to get them in.

patsy_mccabe

Makes sense now....:rolleyes:

lefthooker

Looking worse this morning, that’ll be a bare spot now. I doubt removing the strip wire would make a difference. If it was a gap and they were waiting to come in I’d understand that but it’s alwys the furthest corner they can get to from a gap.

Mooooo

Is it at night? Any chance they are being chased

MfMan

Behavioural thing I'd guess. Herds have a habit of congregating often in the same place, sort of a comfort blanket thing. Cattle always like to return to where they feel safer. Is there shelter near where they gather?

148multi

The only time I saw mine do this they had been chased.

kevthegaff

lefthooker wrote:

My cows have been doing this quite a lot lately, and I’ve noticed it in neighbouring herds too, all crammed into a corner of their paddock, resulting in the life being trampled out of the grass and blackened with sh1t. My first guess is flies. I always gave a pour on on the first of the month during the season but lately every 2-3 weeks. Tried a few different brands this summer too. It’s not a fortnight since they were last done and I found them at it again this evening.

Future bro in law had big problem with cows bunching, said it was flies

lefthooker

Mooooo wrote: »

Is it at night? Any chance they are being chased

Only happens in the afternoons. I’d expect them to burst thru the strip wire if they were being chased or herded.

lefthooker

MfMan wrote: »

Behavioural thing I'd guess. Herds have a habit of congregating often in the same place, sort of a comfort blanket thing. Cattle always like to return to where they feel safer. Is there shelter near where they gather?

No shelter at all. It’s always an afternoon thing and always up against a strip wire. There’s a paddock system here so rarely the same plot twice.

lefthooker

kevthegaff wrote: »

Future bro in law had big problem with cows bunching, said it was flies

I’d always assume flies but I’ve given a pour on so regularly that I was wondering could it be something else. I’m worried they’re spending the afternoons “moshing” instead of grazing.
And if it is flies that’s not saying a whole lot for the pour ons.

Say my name

lefthooker wrote: »

I’d always assume flies but I’ve given a pour on so regularly that I was wondering could it be something else. I’m worried they’re spending the afternoons “moshing” instead of grazing.
And if it is flies that’s not saying a whole lot for the pour ons.

You've a strange one there.

You see a need for regularly giving that pour on. Yet you say it's having no effect.

Are you sure the pour on is supposed to have an effect on flies?

Is your med cabinet under lock and key in case of a bit of a switcheroo is occurring?

The next time you see them bunching go out and see what's going on.

lefthooker

Say my name wrote: »

You've a strange one there.

You see a need for regularly giving that pour on. Yet you say it's having no effect.

Are you sure the pour on is supposed to have an effect on flies?

Is your med cabinet under lock and key in case of a bit of a switcheroo is occurring?

The next time you see them bunching go out and see what's going on.

I never said the pour ons are having no effect, more what looks like a very reduced effect. And I think that’s the crux of my problem.

All the products are for flies and lice. I asked a local merchant about flies and he said this summer, especially during the dry spell was bad for flies. Only I didn’t have any problems during the dry time.

I don’t think there’s anything underhand happening. The last application 12 days ago was from a new unopened can.

I can’t see anything going on in the field. I go to bring them in for milking and 75% of them are sitting or standing on top of each other, happy as Larry. They’re not covered in flies and I’m not being kicked or beaten with tails in the parlour.

Lady Haywire

Might be time to try something new if the pour ons have little to no effect. Couple of garlic licks could be worth a shot.
For what it's worth ours never get fly treatment and don't see bunching like that, normally it's when they're spooked that they pack up like that.

lefthooker

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Might be time to try something new if the pour ons have little to no effect. Couple of garlic licks could be worth a shot.
For what it's worth ours never get fly treatment and don't see bunching like that, normally it's when they're spooked that they pack up like that.

I’m willing to try something different next season. I’m hoping with this weeks weather this behaviour is over.

Say my name

lefthooker wrote: »

I never said the pour ons are having no effect, more what looks like a very reduced effect. And I think that’s the crux of my problem.

All the products are for flies and lice. I asked a local merchant about flies and he said this summer, especially during the dry spell was bad for flies. Only I didn’t have any problems during the dry time.

I don’t think there’s anything underhand happening. The last application 12 days ago was from a new unopened can.

I can’t see anything going on in the field. I go to bring them in for milking and 75% of them are sitting or standing on top of each other, happy as Larry. They’re not covered in flies and I’m not being kicked or beaten with tails in the parlour.

If there's no flies now. Sure then your pour on is working.

It's a spook of some sort then. A rogue deer gad fly that frightened the bejesus of them sometime this year and they've gone into that habit now.
Or pine martin made an appearance sometime or some oul strange thing.

I had heifers in a shed last winter across the yard from the hen house. One night the one person who these jobs are left to didn't shut the door on the hens. Next morning the hens gone and yard full of feathers. Fox was busy that night.

Ever since that when feeding the heifers in the open yard if the dog made an appearance the heifers would go beserk to get away and back into the safety of the shed.
The dog didn't do it because he was locked up but his head looks a little like a fox when he comes around the corner. It took the heifers a long time to get used to the dog again.

Yours have got spooked by something and very little now sets them off again to huddle up is my bet.

CHOPS01

Passed a field this afternoon with a bane of milking cows. Couldn't beleive how tightly packed together they were in a corner. Apart from maybe 10 or 12 scattered around the field there must have been 60 cows packed together almost like a swarm of bees.
Never seen anything like it before.

patsy_mccabe

Maybe they sense the hurricane coming.

lefthooker

CHOPS01 wrote: »

Passed a field this afternoon with a bane of milking cows. Couldn't beleive how tightly packed together they were in a corner. Apart from maybe 10 or 12 scattered around the field there must have been 60 cows packed together almost like a swarm of bees.
Never seen anything like it before.

Same thing I'm looking at.

whelan2

Ours bunch together in a couple of fields. They have steep hills in them

CHOPS01

lefthooker wrote: »

Same thing I'm looking at.

Were they your cows i was looking at !

lefthooker

CHOPS01 wrote: »

Were they your cows i was looking at !

Were you in Wexford, around Ferns.

148multi

Just after remembering, had a limo bull back in the 90s that used to herd cows into a corner, he was also a scut when moving herd, would be in front blocking cows quite successfully.

trixi2011

Would it ever be unpalitable or n rich grass what is milk doing has it declined and are milk urea up , have similr here at times of the year seems to be a grass thing tho with us

patsy_mccabe

148multi wrote: »

Just after remembering, had a limo bull back in the 90s that used to herd cows into a corner, he was also a scut when moving herd, would be in front blocking cows quite successfully.

I had a teaser bull here a few years back, that would do the same thing. A small black whitehead. It was funny watching him and the older bigger cows taking no notice of him. I should have filmed him in action. Some Benny Hill music then in the backgriund.

Dakota Dan

148multi wrote: »

Just after remembering, had a limo bull back in the 90s that used to herd cows into a corner, he was also a scut when moving herd, would be in front blocking cows quite successfully.

I had an angus at that caper years ago drive the cows into a corner and hold them there and when I’d bring them in for milking he’d be first into the yard and when the yard was half full of cows he’d drive them back out again and wouldn’t let them back in.

lefthooker

Sadly I’m resurrecting this thread again, is anybody seeing this behaviour in their herds. Mine are at it on and off for the last few weeks. And it’s definitely not flies that are the cause now. I had a phone call from a vet from a pharmaceutical company and when I outlined the conditions and what was happening he concluded the same thing I’m thinking, it’s a behavioural trait. Doesn’t appear to be any other explanation. But my god does it affect the growth in that particular area.

148multi

lefthooker wrote: »

Sadly I’m resurrecting this thread again, is anybody seeing this behaviour in their herds. Mine are at it on and off for the last few weeks. And it’s definitely not flies that are the cause now. I had a phone call from a vet from a pharmaceutical company and when I outlined the conditions and what was happening he concluded the same thing I’m thinking, it’s a behavioural trait. Doesn’t appear to be any other explanation. But my god does it affect the growth in that particular area.

Is the bull with them, if not has this behaviour started since he was taken out.

MfMan

Cattle often gather in muddy areas, or places with loose clay. A habit I think of pawing/scraping the clay and throwing it over themselves, maybe to cool down or alleviate fly bites. A staggy beast will often do this as a way of 'throwing his weight around'. Herds often do this at evening time also, perhaps harking back to their ancestors' times when they would gather at the waterhole at dusk to avoid daytime predators. (And still do in safari Africa). In the same way, it is said this is why dogs often spin a few times before lying down, emulating dogs once upon a time in the wild who would turn around to beat down grasses and stems to make a comfier lie.

lefthooker

148multi wrote: »

Is the bull with them, if not has this behaviour started since he was taken out.

Bull is gone since mid July. And don’t think this happened during the breeding season. No dogs or other wildlife present either.

lefthooker

MfMan wrote: »

Cattle often gather in muddy areas, or places with loose clay. A habit I think of pawing/scraping the clay and throwing it over themselves, maybe to cool down or alleviate fly bites. A staggy beast will often do this as a way of 'throwing his weight around'. Herds often do this at evening time also, perhaps harking back to their ancestors' times when they would gather at the waterhole at dusk to avoid daytime predators. (And still do in safari Africa). In the same way, it is said this is why dogs often spin a few times before lying down, emulating dogs once upon a time in the wild who would turn around to beat down grasses and stems to make a comfier lie.

There’s no mud or loose clay in the fields/paddocks.

What I’m noticing is grazing for a bit then all in a heap for a while, then a few break ranks and they scatter to graze again and back into formation not long after. Over and over. They can’t lie down in their own space where they stand, it’s like there’s a matriarch herding them

lefthooker

It’s starting to annoy me now. I’m going up and down the road and see neighbours herds grazing away and mine, if you didn’t know the caper you’d swear the field was empty :mad:

Say my name

Hardly your teat spray bothering them?
Or maybe stray electrical current in the soil?

Only saying those as you've covered flies, dogs and bulls in previous posts.

148multi

lefthooker wrote: »

Bull is gone since mid July. And don’t think this happened during the breeding season. No dogs or other wildlife present either.

Put a vasectomised bull in with them, see does it make any difference, one should be cheap to buy at the moment. You might have an alpha cow trying to take control.

lefthooker

Say my name wrote: »

Hardly your teat spray bothering them?
Or maybe stray electrical current in the soil?

Only saying those as you've covered flies, dogs and bulls in previous posts.

I doubt but won’t discount either of your theories. I’ve used the same non iodine based teat spray for nigh on a decade. The fence.... well it’s really well earthed and there’s a good kick in the wire and they’ve bunched on days when the fence has been switched off.

I notice today that they’ve stood in the one spot since at least 1:00. Same M.O., against the fence in the corner furthest from the gate.

Say my name

lefthooker wrote: »

I doubt but won’t discount either of your theories. I’ve used the same non iodine based teat spray for nigh on a decade. The fence.... well it’s really well earthed and there’s a good kick in the wire and they’ve bunched on days when the fence has been switched off.

I notice today that they’ve stood in the one spot since at least 1:00. Same M.O., against the fence in the corner furthest from the gate.

Windturbine power generation in the area and underground power lines nearby?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/26/french-farmers-sue-state-mystery-cow-deaths-blame-electromagnetic/

Lady Haywire

lefthooker wrote: »

I doubt but won’t discount either of your theories. I’ve used the same non iodine based teat spray for nigh on a decade. The fence.... well it’s really well earthed and there’s a good kick in the wire and they’ve bunched on days when the fence has been switched off.

I notice today that they’ve stood in the one spot since at least 1:00. Same M.O., against the fence in the corner furthest from the gate.

Would something be going past that frightens them?
The only time our cows bunch together is if they're nervous or spot a dog hanging around.

lefthooker

Lady Haywire wrote: »

Would something be going past that frightens them?
The only time our cows bunch together is if they're nervous or spot a dog hanging around.

I don’t honestly know other than saying that both dogs have been up at the house all day. They haven’t grazed or drank all afternoon.

Lady Haywire

lefthooker wrote: »

I don’t honestly know other than saying that both dogs have been up at the house all day. They haven’t grazed or drank all afternoon.

It's very strange. I'm trying to think what could be causing it & hitting a blank. Any way you could scope out the field for a day or get a niece/nephew/random person grabbed off the road to watch them for a few hours & see what happens just before they bunch up.

ZETOR_IS_BETTER

My Suckler cows were doing similar this year. I put it down to animals in heat. Took empties away and nothing since.

148multi

Say my name wrote: »

Windturbine power generation in the area and underground power lines nearby?
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2019/04/26/french-farmers-sue-state-mystery-cow-deaths-blame-electromagnetic/

If it was stray electricity wouldn't your scc skyrocket, or for any type of stress for that matter, how's your counts.

lefthooker

Latest cell counts are 140-160. Nothing too serious.

A stakeout might be on the cards

lefthooker

Same craic today. 60+ cows in this bunch.
Electric fence switched off. Pour on applied yesterday evening to rule out flies. Doesn’t appear to be a bully cow herding or holding them in the corner. They just seemed to all gravitate one by one to the furthest possible point in the paddock.

whelan2

Mine do it a odd time in warm days. Mainly in the paddocks with steep hills. They will go to the furthest corner.

Pod123

Does it happen in every paddock??
Just gave picture a quick glance it looked like they were doing it to get shade?
Does it happen in all types of weather?

lefthooker

Pod123 wrote: »

Does it happen in every paddock??
Just gave picture a quick glance it looked like they were doing it to get shade?
Does it happen in all types of weather?

It seems to be a warm weather phenomenon. It happens in fields and paddocks, wherever the cows are that particular day. And more often than not there’s no shade available or if there was shade it’s at the other end of the enclosure
But you might be onto something with seeking shade in numbers

longgonesilver

If cows were loose on a farm in warm weather they would go up on a hill or rock to find a breeze. You are in Wexford? So no hills and they are confused?! On a 2 or 3 day per paddock system it can sometimes be hard to get cows to go to the far end to graze it out completely. Would these patches be the first to burn up in a drought?