Is there still a case for a dedicated sound card?

jozi

I currently have a Creative SB Elite Pro with external breakout box in my build but this machine is old and starting to give up ghost.

I'll be building a sff build and one of the compromises is the soundcard. I'm so long out of the loop when it comes to gfx cards, do they now carry sound also?

I'm looking at a mobo which has a digital out but if a 1050 can also output sound via hdmi I might be able to go for a slightly cheaper mobo.

Venom

You would normally use the onboard sound from your motherboard's sound chip rather than from the GPU. Depending on the motherboard in question, the sound quality will vary from low to high-end boards but for most users, the sound tends to be good enough. If you have a really high-level speaker or amp setup, a dedicated sound card might be required to fully take advantage of such a setup.

Serephucus

I use a creative X7 personally, quite like it. External USB DAC/amp. Haven't tried onboard sound in a long while, but I don't think I'd go back to it, simply for the fact that I'm using bookshelf speakers now, so they'd need an amp regardless.

ED E

€500 Mobo. Onboard audio is MUCK. FTS.

No matter the mobo if you run high impedance cans then you will want a an Amp/DAC.


If you're using ToSLink or HDMI the the quality is based on the receiver and any Mobo will do (that has optical out). Note optical is limited to 2.1.

Calibos

I'm running the 5.1 analogue outs from my motherboards integrated Realtek HD Audio Chipset into a 2000 vintage Sony DB930 receivers 5.1 speaker inputs (ie. internal decoder of Sony receiver bypassed and all it does is provide amplification.

Perfectly happy with music and movies through my KEF E305 5.1 Speakers.

Not having audiophile 'Golden Ears' has saved me a fortune over the years.

the_syco

IMO, onboard is fine if you have two speakers.

If you have an expensive surround sound setup, consider getting a dedicated sound card.

Calibos

Calibos wrote: »

I'm running the 5.1 analogue outs from my motherboards integrated Realtek HD Audio Chipset into a 2000 vintage Sony DB930 receivers 5.1 speaker inputs (ie. internal decoder of Sony receiver bypassed and all it does is provide amplification.

Perfectly happy with music and movies through my KEF E305 5.1 Speakers.

Not having audiophile 'Golden Ears' has saved me a fortune over the years.

Damn my Golden Ears. :pac:

jozi

Currently I'm feeding a coax into a receiver. The receiver is due an upgrade as well as it doesn't have hdmi (which will happen over the next few months/year)

Does the mobo's hdmi do audio even if you have a gfx card, or does the gfx card take over audio when using one?

In the process of downsizing I'm not keen on having external dac's hence wondering about the hdmi being able to output audio.

Serephucus

the_syco wrote: »

IMO, onboard is fine if you have two speakers.

If you have an expensive surround sound setup, consider getting a dedicated sound card.

As someone who uses two speakers, I'd disagree here.

The thing a lot of people think is kinda what you're getting at there: 2.0 is a "starter" set, 5.1 is big-boy speakers, and usually, it's actually the other way around.

A lot of the time, the 5.1 sets - particularly computer speakers - really don't perform well if you compared them to a pair of bookshelf speakers around the same price.

Prime example: Logitech Z-906. One of the highest-end 5.1 setups you can get aimed at the PC. - £230. For this price, you can get a proper amplifier, and a pair of Dali Zensor 1s. These won't get quite as low as the 906's sub, but in everything else they will sound much better, with more body, and more detailed highs.

Venom

Serephucus wrote: »

As someone who uses two speakers, I'd disagree here.

The thing a lot of people think is kinda what you're getting at there: 2.0 is a "starter" set, 5.1 is big-boy speakers, and usually, it's actually the other way around.

A lot of the time, the 5.1 sets - particularly computer speakers - really don't perform well if you compared them to a pair of bookshelf speakers around the same price.

Prime example: Logitech Z-906. One of the highest-end 5.1 setups you can get aimed at the PC. - £230. For this price, you can get a proper amplifier, and a pair of Dali Zensor 1s. These won't get quite as low as the 906's sub, but in everything else they will sound much better, with more body, and more detailed highs.

Sadly I have to agree with this. As much as I loved my old Logitech Z5500's, when compared with a friends amp + proper bookshelf speakers + sub, they weren't even close to the same level. Now that I have my AMD system parts sorted I'm thinking of picking up a Dayton Audio DTA-2.1BT 100W Class D 2.1 Amplifier and a pair of Wharfedale Diamond 220 Speakers and adding a sub down the road.

Varik

Serephucus wrote: »

As someone who uses two speakers, I'd disagree here.

The thing a lot of people think is kinda what you're getting at there: 2.0 is a "starter" set, 5.1 is big-boy speakers, and usually, it's actually the other way around.

A lot of the time, the 5.1 sets - particularly computer speakers - really don't perform well if you compared them to a pair of bookshelf speakers around the same price.

Prime example: Logitech Z-906. One of the highest-end 5.1 setups you can get aimed at the PC. - £230. For this price, you can get a proper amplifier, and a pair of Dali Zensor 1s. These won't get quite as low as the 906's sub, but in everything else they will sound much better, with more body, and more detailed highs.

Of course if you spend X on a pair of speakers, you get 2 speakers that are better than if you spent the same on 5+. If you're spending more per speaker you'll get a better speaker.

A Ferrari vs a small fleet of golfs.

btkm8unsl0w5r4

If your NOT into hifi then on-board audio or sound cards are fine. However the sound floor is too high and there are jitter, cross talk, shielding, and impedance issues if your into "audiophile" stuff. If your not into hifi then they are just fine. In-fact if this is you then on-board is really just as good as you are not interested in the difference.

If you are into hifi then an external asynchronus dac is what you want.

Separate sound-cards are neither one nor the other and are really dead

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0NMlWg-7Crg

jozi

While I am in to hifi, probably not to the levels of extreme.

I am reluctant to make use of the analogue outputs on any motherboard which is why I have one in my basket with a digital out.

Today the pc doubles for playing music through my Amp, I'm using the coaxial out from my soundcard breakout box for this. In future the pc will be relegated to it's own room and I'll probably get a pair of studio monitors, it won't any longer be feeding a 5.1 receiver.

If I can by-pass the on-board sound by utilising hdmi then thats all the better for my need now and in the future if plans change.

the_syco

Serephucus wrote: »

As someone who uses two speakers, I'd disagree here.

The thing a lot of people think is kinda what you're getting at there: 2.0 is a "starter" set, 5.1 is big-boy speakers, and usually, it's actually the other way around.

A lot of the time, the 5.1 sets - particularly computer speakers - really don't perform well if you compared them to a pair of bookshelf speakers around the same price.

Prime example: Logitech Z-906. One of the highest-end 5.1 setups you can get aimed at the PC. - £230. For this price, you can get a proper amplifier, and a pair of Dali Zensor 1s. These won't get quite as low as the 906's sub, but in everything else they will sound much better, with more body, and more detailed highs.

I currently have 2 * 30" Optimus speakers hooked up to the onboard sound via a Technics receiver. The sound is grand for anything other than "can my neighbours neighbour hear this" level.

I view PC "sound systems" as ugh; they'll be good for letting you know that the enemy is creeping up from behind, but not much else (used a Soundblaster PCI card for that at the time, with a Dell 5.1 setup). Would prefer a 5.1 sound system meant for a TV setup, tbh, as any 3.1 or 5.1 computer sound system I've looked at is usually underpowered crap.

In Toronto on a temp visa, heading back to Ireland for a bit shortly. When I get back to here, I'll be buying a sub and two speakers for behind me (I think the SA-DX940 can handle 5.1 output) for a more immersive setup.

K.O.Kiki

You're better off putting money into the speakers/receiver/amp than into a sound card.

All but the cheapest motherboards have TOSLINK optical audio out, too. Just looked it up and TOSLINK isn't even the best anymore; HDMI can carry more data.

ED E

K.O.Kiki wrote: »

Just looked it up and TOSLINK isn't even the best anymore; HDMI can carry more data.

Did mention that

Eric Cartman

you can get a soundblaster audigy FX for less than 30 euro , pci-e , 5.1 card that will blow the hell out of any onboard card but doesn't break the bank at all.

The high horse brigade

ED E wrote: »

Note optical is limited to 2.1.

Not true Ed. Toslink can carry AC3 Dolby Digital 5.1 and DTS, just not the newer Dolby Digital Plus and DTS HD and DTS HD MA.

Prisoner6409

Serephucus wrote: »

As someone who uses two speakers, I'd disagree here.

The thing a lot of people think is kinda what you're getting at there: 2.0 is a "starter" set, 5.1 is big-boy speakers, and usually, it's actually the other way around.

A lot of the time, the 5.1 sets - particularly computer speakers - really don't perform well if you compared them to a pair of bookshelf speakers around the same price.

Prime example: Logitech Z-906. One of the highest-end 5.1 setups you can get aimed at the PC. - £230. For this price, you can get a proper amplifier, and a pair of Dali Zensor 1s. These won't get quite as low as the 906's sub, but in everything else they will sound much better, with more body, and more detailed highs.

I have always used a dedicated sound card and this kind of brings me to my question. I am looking at replacing my 2.1 PC speaker system. I was looking at going for powered monitors like the Audiogenies A2+ or A5+, no sub here so bass may be lacking. Having said that they do get good reviews. If I did go with the something like the Dali Zensor 1s would I need to buy a separate dac or could I use an old amp, I have 2 a Sherwood 6030R and an old Sony STR-DB 940. Would these amps suffice, I know they are much bigger than a DAC but I could stash it away under the desk.

TerrorFirmer

Honestly you would want to have a pretty sweet setup to justify a dedicated card these days, especially if you've a decent motherboard. I'm not really sure I'd agree with the above poster who said Audigy FX would blow onboard out of the water...in what sense?

Prisoner6409

TerrorFirmer wrote: »

Honestly you would want to have a pretty sweet setup to justify a dedicated card these days, especially if you've a decent motherboard. I'm not really sure I'd agree with the above poster who said Audigy FX would blow onboard out of the water...in what sense?

Well my stuff is pretty old, an EVGA 780i mobo and the onboard audio chip is a 7.1 Azalia based High Definition Audio codec (ALC888S- Realtek I think). While this was not bad on board audio and way better than previous Evga on board audio offerings it was not as good as my Creative X-Fi card. The Creative drivers were also updated far more often with better options. I have noticed and read that on board audio mobo chipsets have improved but I suspect so have dedicated sound cards. I only know in my system the X-Fi card was a worthwhile addition.

The high horse brigade

Years ago many games had added Creative EAX effects, I remember Doom3 sounded bloody awesome in full surround sound through a Creative Audigy. All games sound awesome these days because onboard sound has now caught up.

Prisoner6409

The high horse brigade wrote: »

Years ago many games had added Creative EAX effects, I remember Doom3 sounded bloody awesome in full surround sound through a Creative Audigy. All games sound awesome these days because onboard sound has now caught up.

I think it's time I updated my mobo but one area I know nothing about is this USB audio. While reviewing the AudioGenie A2+ the guys at Cnet said the speakers sounded better when connected via USB as opposed to 3.5" line in, now while this did not sound quite right to me I cannot dispute this as I just don't know. Is USB audio similar to HDMI in that's it's digital?

Venom

Prisoner6409 wrote: »

I think it's time I updated my mobo but one area I know nothing about is this USB audio. While reviewing the AudioGenie A2+ the guys at Cnet said the speakers sounded better when connected via USB as opposed to 3.5" line in, now while this did not sound quite right to me I cannot dispute this as I just don't know. Is USB audio similar to HDMI in that's it's digital?

From what I've read about setting up a better audio setup, USB is claimed to be better than HDMI for connecting to external audio gear. Now this seems contradictory to what I felt would be the case, so is it USB in general is better or something specific like needing a USB 3.1 or C connection or is it complete BS?

the_syco

Venom wrote: »

From what I've read about setting up a better audio setup, USB is claimed to be better than HDMI for connecting to external audio gear. Now this seems contradictory to what I felt would be the case, so is it USB in general is better or something specific like needing a USB 3.1 or C connection or is it complete BS?

To what audio gear? I think USB C is faster than Firewire, but how processed is that sound when it goes via the USB?

btkm8unsl0w5r4

Bandwidth is not an issue for audio, USB 2 is fine even for DSD streaming.

JoyPad

I currently run a small desktop (Intel NUC) with Windows 10. It has connected to it the Astro A50s that I use for everything. Also plugged here are 3 external sound cards, one each for optical audio inputs from my gaming PC, my XB1, and my TV.

Since you can rename your inputs in the Sound control panel, my mixer is not too bad to handle. I can watch Netflix on the desktop, while trucking on my gaming PC, or listen/talk in Discord while gaming on XB1, or even listen to the TV, and so on. See screenshot attached.

I shouldn't have had to buy 3 external sound cards for 3 optical inputs, but I couldn't find any card with multiple such inputs.

ED E

All that for "surround" in the headset? I'd have dropped that all straight to analogue and run a mini 4ch mixer. Far quicker to have hw dials than to pull up and down the windows mixer.

Calibos

ED E wrote: »

All that for "surround" in the headset? I'd have dropped that all straight to analogue and run a mini 4ch mixer. Far quicker to have hw dials than to pull up and down the windows mixer.

I'm finding that now that I have a Sony receiver right in front of my keyboard it is indeed handier to 'set and forget' volume levels in the software and adjust manually using the big volume dial on the receiver mere inches from my hands on the keyboard.

My disappointment with 'Surround' in the headsets is the reason I splashed out on a full Home Theater 5.1 speaker system for my setup. Even the Dolby Atmos for Headphones free trial I tried was a major disappointment. No sense of positional audio outside of left to right effects pans which any headphones with stereo can do anyway. All audio still felt like it was emanating from inside my skull like normal Headphone stereo. Zero sense of front/back audio directionality. I know decent positional audio with headphones is possible because VR games have it in spades. No feeling of audio emanating from inside your skull. Audio effects with distance, directionality and height where I can hear an Apache Gunship coming from the distance behind me, hear it flying high up overhead as it passes me and fly off into the distance in front of me. I could close my eyes and accurately point at it and track it with my arm all the way. For some reason they haven't cracked the transcoding of Multi-channel movie/tv-show soundtracks to VR positional audio yet where the sound would feel like it was emanating from virtual surround speakers around the virtual cinema auditorium. Hence why I bought a full home theater speaker system for the VR room to use in the interim when watching movies/tv-shows in a virtual cinema.

Oculus are putting serious R&D cash into it though and have some serious HRTF experts on the payroll now. Latest I heard they were working on processing intensive much more personalised HRTF's and RayTracing for Audio where even soundwave reflections and material sound absorption levels are modelled. Positional audio is finally getting the major R&D bucks it always deserved because its a near necessity in VR whereas in the last couple of decades for monitor PC gaming it wasn't really necessary and a bit of a gimmick that never really caught on too much.

Venom

the_syco wrote: »

To what audio gear? I think USB C is faster than Firewire, but how processed is that sound when it goes via the USB?

I saw a lot of "it's better to use USB over HDMI" posts on various audio forums and videos for connecting a PC to an external amp and passive speaker setup hence I was wondering if this was correct.

TheValeyard

Im using the Creative AE-5 with Logitech z906. I find the sound awesome.