Proposed regulation of Air BnB

Fian

Eoghan Murphy has confirmed he will announce new regulations to Govern air bnb next week.

Note this is announce not publish - so the detailed drafting will not be available immediately.

I have been looking for a suitable 2 bed townhouse/cottage to let as an air bnb in Dublin. I am glad I will be able to see what is proposed before pulling the trigger.

For me the biggest difficulty he will face in constructing regulations is how to restrict air bnb while not restricting hotels or traditional B & Bs. The latter in particular - How do you differentiate between a "traditional" B & B and an "evil" air bnb?

I am interested to hear what people think about the proposal to regulate & hopefully what they think about the regulations themselves. the suggestion is that toronto styl regulations will be adopted - limiting the letting of entire homes to 180 dqays a year and banning certain types of accomodation from being let on air bnb (perhaps appartments?).

Of course what works in the canadian constitutional framework will not automatically work here.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/what-have-other-cities-done-to-curb-the-rise-of-airbnb-1.3624094

godtabh

Fian wrote: »

Eoghan Murphy has confirmed he will announce new regulations to Govern air bnb next week.

Note this is announce not publish - so the detailed drafting will not be available immediately.

I have been looking for a suitable 2 bed townhouse/cottage to let as an air bnb in Dublin. I am glad I will be able to see what is proposed before pulling the trigger.

For me the biggest difficulty he will face in constructing regulations is how to restrict air bnb while not restricting hotels or traditional B & Bs. The latter in particular - How do you differentiate between a "traditional" B & B and an "evil" air bnb?

I am interested to hear what people think about the proposal to regulate & hopefully what they think about the regulations themselves. the suggestion is that toronto styl regulations will be adopted - limiting the letting of entire homes to 180 dqays a year and banning certain types of accomodation from being let on air bnb (perhaps appartments?).

Of course what works in the canadian constitutional framework will not automatically work here.

https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/what-have-other-cities-done-to-curb-the-rise-of-airbnb-1.3624094

Planning permission.

Pelvis

Fian wrote: »

For me the biggest difficulty he will face in constructing regulations is how to restrict air bnb while not restricting hotels or traditional B & Bs. The latter in particular - How do you differentiate between a "traditional" B & B and an "evil" air bnb?

One is on AirBNB and the other is not?

Fian

Pelvis wrote: »

One is on AirBNB and the other is not?

Doesn't work - because then they just move to anothe website. And because it would be anti competive and contrary to EU legal requirements for Ireland to legislate to discriminate against a specific business like that.

We can hardly provide that B & Bs are not allowed to advertise/sell over the internet - we are not going to push that sector back into the 1980s.

SusanC10

While I do understand the effect Airbnb can have on Rental Markets, Airbnb has been great for us as a family who like to travel.
We are at a stage now where we would need 2 Hotel Rooms and we can get a house/apartment ( 2 or 3 Bedrooms) on Airbnb mostly for less than the cost of one Hotel Room per night.
We have used it 12 times in total and only had 1 negative experience.
Regulation / restriction will increase the prices for Airbnb and reduce our options and for us it will mean less travel in particular city breaks.
We have only used it once in Ireland and it was a Holiday Home in Cork for less than €100 per night.
We will miss the freedom/flexibility it gives us.

troyzer

A cap on the number of nights per year you can rent out an entire place without planning permission would be a good start.

Other than that, the best thing to do would be to try and further incentivise lodgers over AirBnB for the room lets. Getting revenue involved will help this.

That's realistically what's probably going to be announced.

jon1981

Also I don't think it should be a blanket restriction... there are plenty of locations not under the rental pressure of say Dublin city.

This regulation will end up getting very complicated...either way if it results in more homes being placed on the market for sale or long term rent, this is a good thing.

We also need alot of hotels quickly, we have a massive shortage and this will lead to room rates increasing if we don't supply more hotels while also restricting Airbnb.

LuckyLloyd

jon1981 wrote: »

Also I don't think it should be a blanket restriction... there are plenty of locations not under the rental pressure of say Dublin city.

This regulation will end up getting very complicated...either way if it results in more homes being placed on the market for sale or long term rent, this is a good thing.

We also need alot of hotels quickly, we have a massive shortage and this will lead to room rates increasing if don't supply more hotels while also restricting Airbnb.

A heap of hotel capacity is under construction in Dublin currently.

jon1981

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

A heap of hotel capacity is under construction in Dublin currently.

Yes, hoping they come on stream pretty quickly. My office would regular US visitors coming here on business, the rates are shocking for what you get. Living in Dublin you don't really get an appreciation for how bad it is currently.

Sleepy

Legislation to protect landlords from over-holding / non paying tenants would probably do a lot more to improve the Irish residential rental market than any measures to restrict the short-term letting market tbh.

SteM

SusanC10 wrote: »

While I do understand the effect Airbnb can have on Rental Markets, Airbnb has been great for us as a family who like to travel.
We are at a stage now where we would need 2 Hotel Rooms and we can get a house/apartment ( 2 or 3 Bedrooms) on Airbnb mostly for less than the cost of one Hotel Room per night.
We have used it 12 times in total and only had 1 negative experience.
Regulation / restriction will increase the prices for Airbnb and reduce our options and for us it will mean less travel in particular city breaks.
We have only used it once in Ireland and it was a Holiday Home in Cork for less than €100 per night.
We will miss the freedom/flexibility it gives us.

But you've only used it once in Ireland? You'll still be able to use it when you go abroad the same way you do now.

SusanC10

SteM wrote: »

But you've only used it once in Ireland? You'll still be able to use it when you go abroad the same way you do now.

Sorry, yes that is true but I was referring more to the worldwide move towards regulation/restriction outlined in the article.
And also I suppose alluding to how some incoming Tourists to this country may also feel.

Claw Hammer

Fian wrote: »

in particular - How do you differentiate between a "traditional" B & B and an "evil" air bnb?



https://www.irishtimes.com/business/transport-and-tourism/what-have-other-cities-done-to-curb-the-rise-of-airbnb-1.3624094

One provides breakfast, the other is self-catering and advertised as such. In traditional b&b's the owner lives i n the property. Requiring everbody doing Air bnb to register also means bank accounts can be audited to check for payments.
Hotels have to be registered to operate as such. Sufficient regulations can be devised to distinguish between the various types of accommodation. Restricting whole house units to 120 days seems madness. they will be simply let ile the rest of the time and thus do nothing to alleviate the homeless problem.

SusanC10

SusanC10 wrote: »

Sorry, yes that is true but I was referring more to the worldwide move towards regulation/restriction outlined in the article.
And also I suppose alluding to how some incoming Tourists to this country may also feel.

I have rented many apartments & villas in different countries, only twice used air B&B, there's lots of other websites offering this type of accomodation.

In Dublin, I think it's more important to get people renting or buying inside of keeping these places as occasional Lets. It may help take families out of hotel rooms, in turn giving back hotel rooms to visitors.

I don't see any harm in someone renting out a room in their own private residence on air B&B, but only up to the same 14,000 Euro limit as the rent a room scheme.

Pkiernan

Many small landlords are driven to Air BnB as they are not protected from rogue tenants.

This legislation won't reduce homelessness.
Only building homes will.

Samuel T. Cogley

bubblypop wrote: »

I have rented many apartments & villas in different countries, only twice used air B&B, there's lots of other websites offering this type of accomodation.

In Dublin, I think it's more important to get people renting or buying inside of keeping these places as occasional Lets. It may help take families out of hotel rooms, in turn giving back hotel rooms to visitors.

I don't see any harm in someone renting out a room in their own private residence on air B&B, but only up to the same 14,000 Euro limit as the rent a room scheme.

RAR doesn't and shouldn't apply to airbnb and alike.

Liam McPoyle

Pkiernan wrote: »

Many small landlords are driven to Air BnB as they are not protected from rogue tenants.

Do you really believe the above?

Cos I dont.

Its all about the €€ imo.

davo10

If you restrict letting entire house to 180 nights per year, that is 3 nights every weekend of the year. That is when most Airbnb lets occur, so I'm all for that one, won't disrupt me at all. You can't rent a house to long term tenants if you can Airbnb 180 nights a year.

Ban/limit Airbnb, no problem, use other platforms, many allow cash transactions, a little riskier for the host, but cash in hand probably means less tax paid, so host still good, Revenue lose out.

Ban entire house lets, no prob, I have five bed house, I let 4, someone has a lease for the other one.

Introduce planning restrictions: Isn't that there already? No body takes any notice.

Have a licensing requirement: Ya mean like the RTB?, that's a joke.

And the biggest issue, who is going to regulate this? The overstretched, understaffed, under funded county councils? Will they have people roaming the countryside checking to see if owners are letting their houses for more than the limited nights across all booking platforms? Would they even know who is letting to short term guests if it isn't on Airbnb?

Op, if you Google vacant property levy, you will see the exact same announcement this time last year, a proposal was to be brought to government in September 2017.

davo10

Business Cat wrote: »

Do you really believe the above?

Cos I dont.

Its all about the €€ imo.

It's both, less risk of bad tenants, more money. Purely business decision, protect your asset, maximise profit.

djan

Business Cat wrote: »

Do you really believe the above?

Cos I dont.

Its all about the €€ imo.

In most cases yes. From personal experience, once all costs are factored in, unless you have a high end space to rent. The profit (assuming in addition to upper tax bracket full time PAYE) for AirBnb is very similair, if not lower to traditional rent. Cleaning and the time needed to manage bookings all take a chunk out of the profits in essence.

Provide LL with the assurance that if the tennant does not pay rent, the Guards will get rid of them. Similarly, from the tennant's side, enforce contracts in terms of agreed furnishing standards, working utilities etc. Then LL will step away from AirBnb more...

davo10

djan wrote: »

In most cases yes. From personal experience, once all costs are factored in, unless you have a high end space to rent. The profit (assuming in addition to upper tax bracket full time PAYE) for AirBnb is very similair, if not lower to traditional rent. Cleaning and the time needed to manage bookings all take a chunk out of the profits in essence.

Provide LL with the assurance that if the tennant does not pay rent, the Guards will get rid of them. Similarly, from the tennant's side, enforce contracts in terms of agreed furnishing standards, working utilities etc. Then LL will step away from AirBnb more...

It of course depends on occupancy rate and nightly charge. You can add an additional charge to Airbnb for cleaning and I'm not sure what time is taken to manage the bookings, you just strike off the dates on your calendar you don't want bookings and their online booking does the rest. They text you every time there is a booking and email you in the days leading up to guests arriving. My income is at least double what I could get for full time rental, and more during summer months when I also had midweek bookings.

Pkiernan

Business Cat wrote: »

Do you really believe the above?

Cos I dont.

Its all about the €€ imo.

Yes.
I started a thread about why I have done so.
4 months unpaid rent and 13k in damages. No hope of recompense.
No more tenants for me.

listermint

SusanC10 wrote: »

While I do understand the effect Airbnb can have on Rental Markets, Airbnb has been great for us as a family who like to travel.
We are at a stage now where we would need 2 Hotel Rooms and we can get a house/apartment ( 2 or 3 Bedrooms) on Airbnb mostly for less than the cost of one Hotel Room per night.
We have used it 12 times in total and only had 1 negative experience.
Regulation / restriction will increase the prices for Airbnb and reduce our options and for us it will mean less travel in particular city breaks.
We have only used it once in Ireland and it was a Holiday Home in Cork for less than €100 per night.
We will miss the freedom/flexibility it gives us.

Holiday homes existed before Airbnb and will continue to exist after it.

They were available from Many other sites before this house sharing concept moved into the holiday letting market

Samuel T. Cogley

Pkiernan wrote: »

Yes.
I started a thread about why I have done so.
4 months unpaid rent and 13k in damages. No hope of recompense.
No more tenants for me.

+1, would have been happy letting my place until it was worth selling to a long term tenant, too risky to do so at the moment so went AirBnB, would happily go back to longterm rentals if the law is changed. As is I'll rent for the 180 days or whatever and use it myself the rest of the time.

Claw Hammer

davo10 wrote: »

If you restrict letting entire house to 180 nights per year, that is 3 nights every weekend of the year. That is when most Airbnb lets occur, so I'm all for that one, won't disrupt me at all. You can't rent a house to long term tenants if you can Airbnb 180 nights a year.

Ban/limit Airbnb, no problem, use other platforms, many allow cash transactions, a little riskier for the host, but cash in hand probably means less tax paid, so host still good, Revenue lose out.

Ban entire house lets, no prob, I have five bed house, I let 4, someone has a lease for the other one.

Introduce planning restrictions: Isn't that there already? No body takes any notice.

Have a licensing requirement: Ya mean like the RTB?, that's a joke.

And the biggest issue, who is going to regulate this? The overstretched, understaffed, under funded county councils? Will they have people roaming the countryside checking to see if owners are letting their houses for more than the limited nights across all booking platforms? Would they even know who is letting to short term guests if it isn't on Airbnb?

Op, if you Google vacant property levy, you will see the exact same announcement this time last year, a proposal was to be brought to government in September 2017.

It would be quite easy to enforce if enough inspectors are employed. Short term lets have to be advertised somewhere. A few attempts to book accommodation will show who is letting and what sites. A quick examination of the bank accounts will tell the story.

TheBoyConor

Business Cat wrote: »

Do you really believe the above?

Cos I dont.

Its all about the €€ imo.

I believe it.

My sister has a second house that she built and lived in before she got married. She used to rent it to tenants long term but after 2 or 3 tenants she'd had enough. Always whinging about something trivial in or outside of the house. Tenants whinging about the retired nosy neighbour with feck all better to do than stick his oar in where it wasn't wanted, the nosy neighbour whinging about the tenants, boiler problems, washing machine problems, late rent, tenants leaving half scrapped cars and parts about the place etc. At one stage the tenants asked permission to move in some members of their extended family. Sister said no to it as it would have overcrowded the house. They didn't like the answer, so they just moved them in anyway and despite being told not to do so. She just felt it was too much hassle and headache for what it was worth to her. Luckily she got rid of them easily enough and they left voluntarily after being asked to do so. Very very lucky escape for her.

So the house is basically left vacant for the last 5 years or so. I don't blame her.
Only for my mother and I live nearby and keep an eye on it and air it and switches on the heating now and again and cut the grass, it would probably be left to rot where it stands.

Fian

Lets say you ban air bnb for more than 180 days or 90 days a year. either way you push people towards air bnb for the summer months to tourists, 6 month tenancies for the remainder of the year, with a letter within the time period indicating you do not want to start a part IV. Good news for students, not great news for anyone who wants a long term solution to their housing requirements. Apparently in Toronto they have a huge problem every summer when all teh tenants get kicked out of their appartments.

Or if air bnb were banned outright you might see a move towards 5 month lettings in housing stock which is currently run as air bnb, with no tenancy being created. In fact even if not going air bnb route in an appartment block that might make sense from a landlord's perspective to avoid RPZ restrictions, depending on where the rent set at teh time of RPZ was with reference to market rents.

listermint

Fian wrote: »

Lets say you ban air bnb for more than 180 days or 90 days a year. either way you push people towards air bnb for the summer months to tourists, 6 month tenancies for the remainder of the year, with a letter within the time period indicating you do not want to start a part IV. Good news for students, not great news for anyone who wants a long term solution to their housing requirements. Apparently in Toronto they have a huge problem every summer when all teh tenants get kicked out of their appartments.

Or if air bnb were banned outright you might see a move towards 5 month lettings in housing stock which is currently run as air bnb, with no tenancy being created. In fact even if not going air bnb route in an appartment block that might make sense from a landlord's perspective to avoid RPZ restrictions, depending on where the rent set at teh time of RPZ was with reference to market rents.

Its against planning and most likely against management company rules. But sure we should just let people at it. My thoughts are Landlords will try to make as much money as they can whilst the sun is out (as they are entitled to) but they are breaking regulations right now and its impacting housing stock as apartments are being bought specifically for this purpose where as normal people cant buy them as a home.

It needs fixing and it needs enforcement. The landlords will just sell up should it come to focused.

LuckyLloyd

Claw Hammer wrote: »

It would be quite easy to enforce if enough inspectors are employed. Short term lets have to be advertised somewhere. A few attempts to book accommodation will show who is letting and what sites. A quick examination of the bank accounts will tell the story.

And if there's a facility to report them neighbours will report them.

bigpink

Is Air Bnb not a lot of work?And irregular income?

Sharktopus

It was reported as being a 28 day limit. I think the 180 day limit was what Airbnb proposed. Also what is being reported is full unit Airbnb letting will be restricted to the owner's primary residence.

If this is implemented it is great news. Will hopefully curtail the mass exodus of properties to short term letting.

Claw Hammer

LuckyLloyd wrote: »

And if there's a facility to report them neighbours will report them.

There will be plenty of squealers if the facilities are there. A full list of registered bnbs can be put on line and anyone who sees a holiday letting can check if it is registered. All registered ones would have to have a specific bank account the money goes into. Plenty of spot checking and auditing plus massive fine and a lifetime ban would soon put a stop to it.

robp

godtabh wrote: »

Planning permission.

Only B and Bs over four guest rooms. Very few air B nB are such size.

Claw Hammer

robp wrote: »

Only B and Bs over four guest rooms. .

Provided the owner is resident.

jon1981

I also think this might be a populist play...will buy the government alittle more time as it gives the impression they are doing things. I still maintain it's a good thing but I'm not sure how much impact it will have on the current housing shortage and rental costs.

Claw Hammer

jon1981 wrote: »

I also think this might be a populist play...will buy the government alittle more time as it gives the impression they are doing things.

They have been at that for years. rent controls, rapid build etc. etc. The problem has kept getting worse.

TPF2012

Heard on radio debate during week that air bnbs account for approx 0.6% of housing units. Thus all a big fanfare for the government to portray active remediation of the housing crisis which will achieve feck all.

Claw Hammer

TPF2012 wrote: »

Heard on radio debate during week that air bnbs account for approx 0.6% of housing units. Thus all a big fanfare for the government to portray active remediation of the housing crisis which will achieve feck all.

How many housing units are there? How more any are needed? Is the number needed greater or lesser that 0.6% of the number existing housing units. If the number is greater, then by how much?