Builder mistake - any advice appreciated!

digitaldr

Looking for some advice. Our builder made a booboo with our extension - basically it's aprox 900mm further back than it should be. Red line indicates what has been built. Plan doesn’t show it but there is also a window opening in the utility near the door. Bedroom 4 is actually going to an office and bedroom 5 a small gym.

Block work is up to roof level - with white brick to the rear and side. We were the first to spot the error yesterday and emailed  the architect last night.

He talked to the builder this morning who will obviously put things right. He has proposed moving the front wall out to where it should be and will also move the rear wall too if we want. Now leaving the rear wall as is would give us more space in the kitchen and according to the architect would not cause any planning issues. The only problem is that it leaves our rear access very tight - the neighbour's house forms the boundary and is diagonal to the extension. Gap according to the plan was  1000mm and is now around 600mm - will measure it this evening and take a pic and update. Hopefully there would be enough space to get a lawnmower through as there are lawns front and back. I am inclined to leave the rear wall where it is and put up with the pinch point for the extra space in the kitchen. Architect also suggested moving the utility door to the side but not sure I see the point.

Edit: Wife says door at side of utility would allow for hanging washing at side of house keeping it out of sight which I guess is a fair point, bins would be there too.

-snip-

digitaldr

Just measured the narrowest point between back of house and neighbors wall 540mm (21 inches) :eek: and 440mm at neighbour's windowsil

-snip-

DOCARCH

I know setting out is solely the responsibility of the builder...but...where was your architect? Appears to be a very noticeable discrepancy from the plans!

White Clover

That is very unfortunate OP. An utter f**k up by the builder and architect. Did either of them take measurements after the footings were poured? Or maybe they did??

digitaldr

You may well ask! He was definitely on site a couple of days after the foundation for the extension was poured. As you say setting out is the builders responsibility - architect doesn't seem too interested in accepting any blame. In fairness to the builder he is very apologetic and has got a lot of extra guys on the job today and says he will pull out all the stops to get finished on time. I don't think he was on site much to be honest (he has 4 crews) and his foreman did the setting out.

the14thwarrior

my advice is if possible leave as much room to the side of the house as possible at any expense. if you dont the only thing that will fit is yourself. not a bin, not a buggy, not a bike with long handlebars, not a wheelchair, little else in way of lawnmowers, furniture, anything you might think you will bring by side of your house.
500mm is nothing in the real world and therefore your side access is not really side access at all.

your knuckles will be thankful

digitaldr

Wife just wants a bigger kitchen - not too worried about access to the back garden! Guess who mows the Lawns etc I'm thinking the best solution might just be to step back the utility and leave kitchen wall as is. Possibly not the most aesthetically pleasing but it's the back of the house.

DOCARCH

You could cut the rear corner of the Utility Room...cut at 45 degrees (and let roof overhang).

Did you get short changed at first floor?

listermint

Wouldn't get a washing machine down there. 600mm square.

Nasty gap to get anything by. Might as well not be a gap

digitaldr

Yeah suggested the 45 degree idea to the builder - he thought it would look terrible but might look better with the roof overhanging to keep the line. I would hope the architect could advise - God knows we're paying him enough!

digitaldr

DOCARCH wrote: »

Did you get short changed at first floor?

Not sure what you mean?

DOCARCH

digitaldr wrote: »

Not sure what you mean?

Is the first floor smaller than planned?

Gumbo

Your architect says there is no planning issues, I beg to differ.
It’s not that the footprint is bigger, it’s that it encroaches on the Neighbour a lot more than what the planning drawings would have indicated, so the Neighbour’s may not have objected to the original design, but they very well may to this design.

They may lodge a complaint to the planning enforcement section.
My advice to be to apply for retention and see if the Neighbour can give a letter of support.

TCM

digitaldr wrote:

Wife just wants a bigger kitchen - not too worried about access to the back garden! Guess who mows the Lawns etc I'm thinking the best solution might just be to step back the utility and leave kitchen wall as is. Possibly not the most aesthetically pleasing but it's the back of the house.

What about your bins. You definitely need side access for those. Otherwise you'll have lovely bins sitting in front of your house permanently. How lovely that'll be.

Iodine1

digitaldr wrote: »

Yeah suggested the 45 degree idea to the builder - he thought it would look terrible but might look better with the roof overhanging to keep the line. I would hope the architect could advise - God knows we're paying him enough!

Yes, take the corner off, you will have most of the space inside, which will keep your wife happy. It will not be a big job at this stage but will be huge if you want to go back later. You have basically no access to rear with only 600 odd mm, so you will end up bringing stuff through the house, with all the dirt etc that will entail. And it will happen, as repairs have to be done from time to time on all houses.

Box09

White brick work looks poor too

Jack Moore

Box09 wrote: »

White brick work looks poor too

Poor ? It’s rotten !

digitaldr

DOCARCH wrote: »

Is the first floor smaller than planned?

No front wall of extension is being moved to where it should be.

digitaldr

kceire wrote: »

Your architect says there is no planning issues, I beg to differ.
It’s not that the footprint is bigger, it’s that it encroaches on the Neighbour a lot more than what the planning drawings would have indicated, so the Neighbour’s may not have objected to the original design, but they very well may to this design.

They may lodge a complaint to the planning enforcement section.
My advice to be to apply for retention and see if the Neighbour can give a letter of support.

This had occurred to me too - will raise it with the architect.

digitaldr

TCM wrote: »

What about your bins. You definitely need side access for those. Otherwise you'll have lovely bins sitting in front of your house permanently. How lovely that'll be.

Bins will be at side of house which will be fenced in.

digitaldr

Jack Moore wrote: »

Poor ? It’s rotten !

Something else I'll be taking up with the builder!

Metric Tensor

It is where it is now and considering the builder has agreed to sort it out the Monday morning quarterbacking isn't really that relevant.

It looks like the ground floor rear section was to have a flat roof OP, i.e. no upstairs above the back part of the utility - so making a wider gap won't be too difficult. I think you definitely need a much wider gap than what is left.

It won't look ideal but I'd probably go for the diagonal chamfered wall if presented with what is there now.

Separately - is that new build blockwork showing on the right hand side of the last photo?

digitaldr

Yes - pretty poor isn't it? The rest isn't as bad but will be raising it with builder/architect.

Victor

If I'm correct, Dublin City Council has a requirement that you either built up against a neighbouring property or leave a one metre gap. Other councils may have similar rules. Does the builder want to demolish a small amount of work or a large amount of work?

Is the builder also moving the front wall at first floor level? More planning implications and impinges on bedrooms 4 (size) and 5 (access).

Calahonda52

Whats the craic with the drainage pipework at rere, is it built over

Lumen

+1 for more gap.

Aside from the practical and planning compliance aspects, I would expect a small gap to devalue the property (not that you necessarily care about that) since it makes any subsequent work (e.g landscaping the garden) much, much more awkward.

digitaldr

Meeting architect on site in half an hour. He's (belatedly) all over it today. Will update later but looks like a major shakeup is going down.

GreeBo

Even if a bin or lawn mower fits in the gap you dont have enough space to actually turn the corner with them, will drive you demented.

T5180

I know I`m probably stating the obvious now but there is something not right about this whole project . There is no way the dimensional error could have been over looked until now . Someone must have realised it earlier and decided to continue regardless. The workmanship is poor at best and awful in places , the white brick work is very badly done and the block work on the right is appalling and looks like it should be re-done. That size of wall was not laid in a day and someone , a Foreman , Engineer , Architect or client should have called a meeting or asked for works to cease until the quality improved .

Tbh I feel sorry for you , it looks like an expensive job that was taken on with too much faith in people to do their job correctly and you have been conned .

Just my opinion btw , best of luck with your meeting . I wouldnt be parting with another euro until the issues have been addressed , and hopefully none of those involved are paid up to date .

digitaldr

Long meeting with architect and builder. The builder held up his hands - he really took his eye off the ball and will manage the job now himself as foreman was obviously not up to the job. Brickie was new and poorly supervised. Initially I thought it was great that work continued during "builder's holidays" but now I realize that it's much better that building stops for a couple of weeks and resumes with the same crew. In our case seems to have been a lot of different inexperienced builders around during the holidays and no/very little oversight from the architect and builder who were, I suspect, on holidays as were we!

Builder is naturally worried about his reputation and says nothing like this has happened to him before. Strange as it may seem my gut feeling is that this is true- he was recommended by our architect. We viewed two houses designed by our architect (without him present) and had a good chat with the owners. They were very happy with everything. Both of them used builders recommended by the architect but I'm not sure whether either was built by our builder as this was before our job had gone to tender. In any case architect told us that our builder would be his first choice out of the 4 that he normally uses.

Builder seemed genuinely horrified at the poor workmanship and volunteered to take down all the white brick and get three experienced brickies to rebuild. Block work at front of extension is also coming down and being rebuilt according to the original plan. Builder reckoned it would be best to knock the back wall entirely and rebuild according to plan. Both the architect and ourselves felt that best thing to do would be to step the utility room back to the original line and keep the extra space in the kitchen (space around island was a bit tight before) so this is what is going to happen. Also considering a roof light above the kitchen sink which builder will install gratis. We did a walk through of the entire house and a few minor issues were identified all of which are going to be put right.

All in all a very stressful experience. As has been stated above maybe we were too trusting - we are both professionals and ?naively expected other professionals to be as conscientious as we like to think we are. I suspect the builder and architect will be watching things like a hawk form now on as will we!

Thanks for all the helpful advice. Is anyone interested in updates??

digitaldr

Calahonda52 wrote: »

Whats the craic with the drainage pipework at rere, is it built over

No

Calahonda52

digitaldr wrote: »

No

well if the 3rd picture shows the pinch point, that soil has not been disturbed so where is the pipework shown in the drawing?

digitaldr

All that pipework has yet to go in.

T5180

digitaldr wrote: »

Long meeting with architect and builder. The builder held up his hands - he really took his eye off the ball and will manage the job now himself as foreman was obviously not up to the job. Brickie was new and poorly supervised. Initially I thought it was great that work continued during "builder's holidays" but now I realize that it's much better that building stops for a couple of weeks and resumes with the same crew. In our case seems to have been a lot of different inexperienced builders around during the holidays and no/very little oversight from the architect and builder who were, I suspect, on holidays as were we!

Builder is naturally worried about his reputation and says nothing like this has happened to him before. Strange as it may seem my gut feeling is that this is true- he was recommended by our architect. We viewed two houses designed by our architect (without him present) and had a good chat with the owners. They were very happy with everything. Both of them used builders recommended by the architect but I'm not sure whether either was built by our builder as this was before our job had gone to tender. In any case architect told us that our builder would be his first choice out of the 4 that he normally uses.

Builder seemed genuinely horrified at the poor workmanship and volunteered to take down all the white brick and get three experienced brickies to rebuild. Block work at front of extension is also coming down and being rebuilt according to the original plan. Builder reckoned it would be best to knock the back wall entirely and rebuild according to plan. Both the architect and ourselves felt that best thing to do would be to step the utility room back to the original line and keep the extra space in the kitchen (space around island was a bit tight before) so this is what is going to happen. Also considering a roof light above the kitchen sink which builder will install gratis. We did a walk through of the entire house and a few minor issues were identified all of which are going to be put right.

All in all a very stressful experience. As has been stated above maybe we were too trusting - we are both professionals and ?naively expected other professionals to be as conscientious as we like to think we are. I suspect the builder and architect will be watching things like a hawk form now on as will we!

Thanks for all the helpful advice. Is anyone interested in updates??

Sounds like a good outcome. I would definitely agree with re- doing of the brick and block work and changing of the dimensions back to the original plan . Sounds like they are honourable people hopefully they are true to their word , best of luck .

Metric Tensor

I'm glad some/all of the really poor stuff is coming down.

It's relatively rare for a builder to agree to as much as you seem to have gotten as he will now lose a sizable chunk of his own money on this job. That on its own would be a good first step in making him seem genuine.

Would love to see updates from here on out.

august12

Yes, am following this thread as well and would welcome updates and pictures, very stressful for all concerned, I personally would have sleepless nights over this.

Iodine1

In fairness its as good an outcome as could be expected and it is easy to see if its corrected or not. Therefore I don't think he would suggest doing it and then taking a short cut. Many builders are genuine guys and your guy seems to be very busy - which is a good sign too. And he cares about his reputation. So I would stop worrying and let him get on with it now. And please let us know how it works out, we're rooting for you too!

Victor

Realise that any profit in it for the builder is likely gone. This poses two issues:
* There is a risk that the builder will use any opportunity to maximise the cost to you of any changes beyond this point. Of course, minimising any cost to him.
* There is a risk that the builder will lose interest in the project.

digitaldr

Victor wrote: »

Realise that any profit in it for the builder is likely gone. This poses two issues:
* There is a risk that the builder will use any opportunity to maximise the cost to you of any changes beyond this point. Of course, minimising any cost to him.
* There is a risk that the builder will lose interest in the project.

I can't see any of this happening tbh. Most decent people are ashamed when they make an avoidable mistake and do their level best to make amends. This is the vibe I get off the builder in spades. He was very quick to set things right without any argument and I can't see him cutting any corners. In fact his preferred option was to demolish and rebuild the kitchen wall according to the plan which would have cost him more than what ourselves and the architect have settled on.

As to maximising the cost of any changes he has already agreed to fit a kitchen skylight for free in our now bigger kitchen roof. Not actually sure we are going to go for this - it would be a nice feature but we would still have to pay for the actual skylight.

GreeBo

digitaldr wrote: »

I can't see any of this happening tbh. Most decent people are ashamed when they make an avoidable mistake and do their level best to make amends. This is the vibe I get off the builder in spades. He was very quick to set things right without any argument and I can't see him cutting any corners. In fact his preferred option was to demolish and rebuild the kitchen wall according to the plan which would have cost him more than what ourselves and the architect have settled on.

As to maximising the cost of any changes he has already agreed to fit a kitchen skylight for free in our now bigger kitchen roof. Not actually sure we are going to go for this - it would be a nice feature but we would still have to pay for the actual skylight.

Deffo go for the skylight, they typically make a room much nicer to be in.

Though your kitchen is south facing so maybe not much of an issue...but they are good for ventilation too!

digitaldr

As we're giving the architect and the builder the benifit of the doubt I'd ask everyone following this thread not to reveal the location of the house in the unlikely event they happen to recognise it.

Was on site this evening - a hive of activity. The corner of the utility was already lopped off - will try to post some pics tomorrow.

dusteeroads

I think the mods should consider pulling this thread for this reason /\ now the OP has reaped whatever benefit from it.

digitaldr

Actually I'm inclined to agree. Can a mod oblige please?

Doop

Id like to see how the rectification works pan out.. but hey ho

BryanF

digitaldr wrote: »

Actually I'm inclined to agree. Can a mod oblige please?

Photos removed. In future please use the report function - mods can’t/don’t read every post regards B

august12

I am glad the photos have been removed, would hate to see the reputation of a builder destroyed over this, given that he has accepted responsibility and will demolish/rebuild where necessary.