Vanishing Modern Dublin: Are Any late 20th century buildings worth keeping?

JupiterKid

We all know that between the 1960s and late 1980s much of Dublin’s beautiful historic Georgian built fabric was destroyed in the name of so-called “progress” - Busaras was the first major post-War building built in central Dublin in 1953, and after 1960 a spate of office building began in earnest, including the monstrous Hawkins House (1963), our first “mini-skyscraper” Liberty Hall (1965), the Central Bank (1977), the Irish Life Centre (1974-80, in stages), the controversial and much reviled Civic Offices at Wood Quay (1985) and many others, including the Ilac (1981) and Stephen’s Green (1988) shopping centres.

So now in the past few years, many of these rather bland and ugly structures are being torn down and replaced, like the ESB offices on Merrion St, a number of buildings including the old passport office on Molesworth St and Canada House on Stephen’s Green.

But are the buildings replacing them really any better? And aren’t some of the buildings from the 1950-90 era worth preserving, like the former Bank Of Ireland HQ on Baggot St (1972), Grattan House on Mount St (built in 1972 and way ahead of its time IMO).

Thoughts?


Grattan House (1972)



Central Bank (1977)

pleas advice

Some of them should never have been bulit, but I like the Irish Life building, and the Central Bank, not sure what style you call the architecture, but its striking.

Del2005

The buildings don't meet modern requirements and the cost to refurbish would be huge. We also need more office space than the old buildings can provide, so it's either demolish and replace with modern efficient buildings or loose the jobs to another country.

I don't get this love affair with Georgian Dublin. They are all just streets with redbrick buildings with little to different them. They are no different to the modern buildings that replaced them except for the colour.

Wibbs

pleas advice wrote: »

Some of them should never have been bulit, but I like the Irish Life building, and the Central Bank, not sure what style you call the architecture, but its striking.

Modernist I suppose? The old Central Bank building has grown on me. I vaguely remember it going up. I do like how the design opened up the ground space for people and it has become a hub of people meeting and hanging out. A standard design taking up the same footprint all the way to the ground wouldn't have that.

Del2005 wrote: »

The buildings don't meet modern requirements and the cost to refurbish would be huge. We also need more office space than the old buildings can provide, so it's either demolish and replace with modern efficient buildings or loose the jobs to another country.

I don't get this love affair with Georgian Dublin. They are all just streets with redbrick buildings with little to different them. They are no different to the modern buildings that replaced them except for the colour.

And that folks is the thinking that has cut the heart out of many an urban environment.

wakka12

The only nice 20th C buildings in Dublin are Berkely library, old central bank, Irish life centre , fitzwilton house(which is being demolished anyway ), AIB baggot street,and I suppose busaras even though I personally dislike it, every other late 20th C building that is demolished is a weight lifted off the city's shoulders

And Del2005 I guess we all have different taste but I just dont know how ugly office blocks built with dirt cheap materials and thrown up in as little time as possible with no regard for context what so ever can be considered 'the same' as the buildings they replaced

Do you really think theres no difference in these views?

And today
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3562556,-6.2637613,3a,60y,24.93h,88.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZznfH_8TKVDr9-2CPWCtgw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Hector Bellend

Just f*ckin' build the f*ckin' buildings.

And perhaps we'll start building houses and schools and all the other stuff we need.

Grayson

wakka12 wrote: »

The only nice 20th C buildings in Dublin are Berkely library, old central bank, Irish life centre , fitzwilton house(which is being demolished anyway ), AIB baggot street,and I suppose busaras even though I personally dislike it, every other late 20th C building that is demolished is a weight lifted off the city's shoulders

And Del2005 I guess we all have different taste but I just dont know how ugly office blocks built with dirt cheap materials and thrown up in as little time as possible can be considered 'the same' as the buildings they replaced

Do you really think theres no difference in these views?

And today
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3558223,-6.264138,3a,75y,64.67h,88.37t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1shiY7v52H77YGJV8_NOWm4A!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Busaras is an amazing building. It's just a pity about it's location. If it was on the south side, in a fancy neighbourhood and had money invested in it to keep it in good condition it'd be amazing.

blackwhite

Of the late 20th Century buildings, I always thought the Ulster Bank HQ on George's Quay was fairly striking - especially when travelling in from the port.

rossie1977

blackwhite wrote: »

Of the late 20th Century buildings, I always thought the Ulster Bank HQ on George's Quay was fairly striking - especially when travelling in from the port.

Looks like a pyramid from this angle.

Nice building if a little stumpy

JupiterKid

Cities constantly change, grow, regenerate and evolve. But that doesnt mean that we should just discard our valuable historic Georgian built heritage for new buildings. Its all about balance. That is key.

I do think that in the past decade there has been a reappraisal of modernist late 20th century buildings. Certianly some should be preserved - Busarus, the old Central Bank, Irish Life Centre, BOI HQ on Baggot St, Berkeley Library, Grattan House, US Embassy and Molyneaux House.

blackwhite

rossie1977 wrote: »

Looks like a pyramid from this angle.

Nice building if a little stumpy

[img][/img]

Similar when viewed from the right angle when travelling past the IFSC - always thought it was one of the more architecturaly ambitious blocks in the city (which shows how poor the selection is :pac:)

Del2005

wakka12 wrote: »

And Del2005 I guess we all have different taste but I just dont know how ugly office blocks built with dirt cheap materials and thrown up in as little time as possible with no regard for context what so ever can be considered 'the same' as the buildings they replaced

Do you really think theres no difference in these views?

And today
https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3562556,-6.2637613,3a,60y,24.93h,88.42t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1sZznfH_8TKVDr9-2CPWCtgw!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

Both are rows of redbrick homes so not really.

Yes we've made some mistakes with our buildings but that's not a reason to want our cities full of 200 year old buildings not fit for modern purposes. Is it better to have a city full old buildings not fit for purpose and build new ones in green field sites? What's the point of making people live 50-100km from the city? We should be modernising our cities not living in the 18th Century.

wakka12

I agree, but only about 30% of Dublin city centre buildings are from the georgian period.Theres definitely no need to demolish much of it. The reason we have people commuting so far is because we built many square kilometres of low rise urban sprawl, not because we have quite a lot of old buildings in the centre, the georgian townhouses are reasonable density anyway, the many poorly planned wide winding roads serving semi d's widely spaced apart with big front and back gardens are the root of all of dublins problems

JupiterKid

Molyneaux House on Bride Street was a partial rebuild of an 18th century former Presbyterian Church, and was the offices of controversial architect Sam Stephenson. It was built in 1973 and personally I like it and consider it years ahead of its time...

JupiterKid

There are a few modernist buildings of note outside Dublin, including the controversial Moylurg Tower (1971) in Lough Key Forest Park in Roscommon and the Miesian influenced structure on the former Goulding estate by Scott Tallon Walker architects near Enniskerry in Wicklow.


Moylurg Tower (1971) Concrete Brutalism at its most raw.



Goulding House (1973). Light, glassy structure jutting out over a river valley.

JupiterKid

Does anyone remember this modern office building?

It is 123 South Leinster Street, a very distinctive red brick structure built in 1973 that was damaged in the horrific Dublin and Monaghan bombings about a year after its completion. Demolished around 2005 and replaced with a new structure. Photo below was the only good one I could find which shows the damage from the May 17th 1974 bombing atrocity. I think they should have kept this one...

wakka12

It reminds me of the one on Molesworth Street that was demolished for the new henry j lyons building with the Ivy restaurant in it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3412935,-6.258221,3a,75y,61.07h,95.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siMKE9LjLQh_fNca12K3AdA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

2 rather decent looking 20th C buildings on that street were demolished just in the last two years, with several more to be demolished on nassau street
I know they were (worthwhile) business investments obviously,and of course we can't tell developers what they should spend their money on, but it just seems so wasteful, demolishing all these large usable buildings in decent conditions just to be replaced with similar slightly bigger, slightly more glitzy/showy glassy new buildings, especially when theres still such vast amounts of urban neglect, dereliction and vacancy still all over west and north dublin city

At least general investment seems to be coming to the liberties and smithfield and other areas like that very recently

blackwhite

wakka12 wrote: »

It reminds me of the one on Molesworth Street that was demolished for the new henry j lyons building with the Ivy restaurant in it.

https://www.google.com/maps/@53.3412935,-6.258221,3a,75y,61.07h,95.56t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1siMKE9LjLQh_fNca12K3AdA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656

2 rather decent looking 20th C buildings on that street were demolished just in the last two years, with several more to be demolished on nassau street
I know they were (worthwhile) business investments obviously,and of course we can't tell developers what they should spend their money on, but it just seems so wasteful, demolishing all these large usable buildings in decent conditions just to be replaced with similar slightly bigger, slightly more glitzy/showy glassy new buildings, especially when theres still such vast amounts of urban neglect, dereliction and vacancy still all over west and north dublin city

At least general investment seems to be coming to the liberties and smithfield and other areas like that very recently

It's issues with having offices to a modern standard of infrastructure/layout.

If the owners of these 30-50 year old buildings want to be able to rent out their commercial office space, they need to be able to match the layout (ability to flex from open plan to closed offices, etc) and infrastructure (comms networks, air con, etc) of the newer offices that are going up in the Docklands or in the likes of Citywest, Sandyford etc.

In most cases, it works out more economical to demolish and build from scratch than to try and gut and renovate the existing structures (especially when you can probably increase capacity and rent-rates as well)

Cuddlesworth

There are compromises. In other country's its not uncommon to allow the building to be knocked but keeping the front facade to keep the look of the street consistent. There are a a lot of streets in Dublin badly needing something like this. But in Ireland the answer is to list the building, making it near impossible to modernise.

The One Doctor

pleas advice wrote: »

Some of them should never have been bulit, but I like the Irish Life building, and the Central Bank, not sure what style you call the architecture

Brutalist architecture. Google it and guess what image pops up?

It's horrific.

CrankyHaus

I actually think a lot of stuff thrown up in the Celtic Tiger is worse than much of what has featured in this thread and will age poorly.

Many of the remaining 20th century buildings of note are worth keeping. The neglect of Busaras is sinful.

In a similar vein is it feasible to remove Liberty Hall's anti-terror hardening measures installed in the 1970s and would it look much nicer without them?

Ubbquittious

Knock everything and throw up lots of boxy glass office and residential buildings. The tech megacorps and hipsters only have use for the latest of ugly modern buildings. All hail the hipster revolution.

Fellas with beards sitting on beanbags in quirky open plan areas 'being productive' on their smartphones everywhere.

blackwhite

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

There are compromises. In other country's its not uncommon to allow the building to be knocked but keeping the front facade to keep the look of the street consistent. There are a a lot of streets in Dublin badly needing something like this. But in Ireland the answer is to list the building, making it near impossible to modernise.

Never understood why we don't require more of that kind of stuff here.

I can fully appreciate the need to have functional interiors if they hope to be able to rent the building, but maintaining the street facade shouldn't impinge on that

JupiterKid

As I opined before, its all about balance...

Georgian Dublin (what's left of it) certainly should be preserved and quite a few modernist late 20th century buildings should be listed, as I think a couple now have. I even think that Liberty Hall should be kept, but stripped back to its concrete and steel shell and completely re-clad. That said, I will be delighted to see Hawkins house and that entire vile block demolished and rebuilt.

I think many of the office buildings that have replaced the late 20th century office stock are little or no better than what came before. A lot of the built stock in the docklands built in the celtic tiger era is very mediocre.

Does any one else here think the design quality of many 1970s office buildings - especially brick-clad ones - is generally beter than their concrete counterparts from the 1960s?

Look at this office building on Grand Canal St - it was a rather bland, nondescript modernist office block built by McInerney in 1972 - instead of being demolished and replaced - it was completely refurbished with a glassy extra stoey added which IMO hugely improves the building.

John_Rambo

Ubbquittious wrote: »

Knock everything and throw up lots of boxy glass office and residential buildings. The tech megacorps and hipsters only have use for the latest of ugly modern buildings. All hail the hipster revolution.

Fellas with beards sitting on beanbags in quirky open plan areas 'being productive' on their smartphones everywhere.

Are you getting accountants mixed up with hipsters?

The hipsters are all Smithfield, Stonybatter, red brick, old buildings, regenerated etc..

EdgeCase

There's a lot of mediocre stuff around but there are one or two interesting buildings.

Quite a few 20th century buildings of note around Cork City too, notably County Hall, at least as it originally stood and also there

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/County_Hall,_Cork

Construction 1965 - 1968
Designed by: Patrick McSweeney, Cork County Architect.
Reclad 2002.
17 stories (67m)



Church: Christ the King. Quite unusual and looks almost like the Church in Reykjavik.

http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/Surveys/Buildings/BuildingoftheMonth/Archive/Name,1843,en.html

Boole Library UCC (1980) and modernised:

http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=CC&regno=20866145

http://www.buildingsofireland.ie/niah/search.jsp?type=record&county=CC&regno=20866145

https://www.cubsucc.com/contentFiles/components/GDEventBooking/29/small/MG7998.jpg

O'Rahilly Building UCC (1998)

http://culturenightcork.ie/ucc-o-rahilly-building/

There are quite a few other examples around the city too.

SEPT 23 1989

What's that building in Inchicore covered in trees no natural light interior lights always on real sick looking building

JupiterKid

SEPT 23 1989 wrote: »

What's that building in Inchicore covered in trees no natural light interior lights always on real sick looking building

Is that the one just off the dual carriageway that leads to the Chapelizod bypass? I think it was originally a computer centre built for big old mainframe computers in the early 1970s. If that's the buikding you're referring to - it is vile and should face the demolition squad.

Much of the old industrial/warehouse building stock from the first generation of industrial estates in suburban Dublin - like in the Naas Road area - built between 1965 and 1985 is seriously ugly and wastes far too much land - valuable urban land that could be repurposed for housing. Their disappearance would be no loss.

One former industrial building of architectural merit is the former Carrolls cigarette factory in Dundalk (1969) designed by Scott Tallon Walker. Very ahead of its time. Indeed much of Scott Tallon Walker's output in the 1960s and 70s - including the former BOI HQ on Baggot St - is very good.

EdgeCase

The older buildings at RTE and also some of the original UCD Belfield ones are pretty nice, as 60s/70s stuff goes.

SEPT 23 1989

JupiterKid wrote: »

Is that the one just off the dual carriageway that leads to the Chapelizod bypass? I think it was originally a computer centre built for big old mainframe computers in the early 1970s. If that's the buikding you're reffing to - it is vile and should face the demolition squad.

Much of the old industrial/warehouse building stock from the first generation of industrial estates in suburban Dublin - like in the Naas Road area - built between 1965 and 1985 is seriously ugly and wastes far too much land - valuable urban land that could be repurposed for housing. Their disapoearance would be no loss.

One former industrial building of architectural merit is the former Carrolls cigarette factory in Dundalk (1969) designed by Scott Tallon Walker. Very ahead of its time. Indeed much of Scott Tallon Walker's output in the 1960s and 70s - including the former BOI HQ on Baggot St - is very good.

That's the one

How anyone can face going to work in there everyday is beyond me

I like old the Volkswagen assembly building with the spinning merc symbol on the clock tower on the Naas Road the rest should be levelled and business parks built further out

wakka12

Cuddlesworth wrote: »

There are compromises. In other country's its not uncommon to allow the building to be knocked but keeping the front facade to keep the look of the street consistent. There are a a lot of streets in Dublin badly needing something like this. But in Ireland the answer is to list the building, making it near impossible to modernise.

Lots of other countries protect the interiors of buildings as well, its considered best practice to either protected the whole building or else allow it all to be demolished ,façadism is not a term thats used in a positive way really

And anyway theres a lot of façadism in dublin, that new hotel proposed for the old dockrells store on georges street will be just a facade, permission was given to demolish everything behind it
Off the top of my head the terrace of gerogaisn houses that are the institute of education on leeson street are just facades, many old buildings in the docklands are just facades too

Im not against façadism but its basically saying modern architects can't design a facade thats more attractive than the one it would replace, which tbh usually they can't, most modern buildings just can't compete with classical buildings aesthetically wise