Identify tree

Thud

Any idea what this is?
Its not a Rowan, it has no berries, the leaves are smaller and ‘sprout’ upwards in bunches. Possibly some other sorbus but i haven’t found any online that have leaves in that format. Locust is the other tree with pinnate leaves that comes up in searches but most have thorns and seed pods, this doesn't.

Lumen

The attachment didn't attach.

Thud

Sorry mobile uploads always glitchy for me

New Home

That does look like a Rowan/Mountain Ash (Sorbus Aucuparia) to me. Could the berries have been eaten already, or could the plant be "suffering" in some way and not have produced any? It would also explain the smaller leaves.

EDIT: I stand corrected, a rowan and a mountain ash aren't the same tree. Or rather, a mountain ash is a rowan, but not all rowans are mountain ash.

Thud

New Home wrote: »

That does look like a Rowan/Mountain Ash (Sorbus Aucuparia) to me. Could the berries have been eaten already, or could the plant be "suffering" in some way and not have produced any? It would also explain the smaller leaves.

EDIT: I stand corrected, a rowan and a mountain ash aren't the same tree. Or rather, a mountain ash is a rowan, but not all rowans are mountain ash.

There are rowan trees nearby (still loads of berries on them), individual (sub)leaves are about 1/3 of the size or rowan leaves. Rowan leaves tend to hang down and are individual but these sprout upwards and in bunches.

looksee

Is it an ailanthus - Tree of Heaven?

my3cents

Not tree of heaven and almost definitely a Sorbus species (one of the Mountain Ashes).

If you count up the pairs of leaflets then each leaf has a max of 9 pairs which is indicative of our Rowan, Mountain Ash, Sorbus aucuparia, however I think its another species of Sorbus. Ideally need a couple of pictures of representative leaves to have a better guess. Autumn colour can tell use a few things as well as not all turn the red this one looks like its going. Fruit which we aren't going to see a pic of as there isn't any could also tell a lot.

From the the second I saw the picture I thought Sorbus vilmorinii but nothing on closer examination positively backs that up but its still a possibility what stops me saying its S. vilmorinii is that tree has 9-14 pairs of leaflets on each leaf and I can only see 9 pairs. Maybe the OP is onto something in the way the leaves are held on the branch as S. vilmorinii has the leaf habit he indicates.

Good list of other Sorbus on the right http://www.beanstreesandshrubs.org/browse/sorbus/sorbus-vilmorinii-schneid/, its better to work through the written taxonomic details than compare pictures.

looksee

No, I thought after he said they were small leaves and ToH has biggish leaf fronds. Its very unusual for leaves like that to grow in such an upright manner.

Thud

my3cents wrote: »

Good list of other Sorbus on the right http://www.beanstreesandshrubs.org/browse/sorbus/sorbus-vilmorinii-schneid/, its better to work through the written taxonomic details than compare pictures.

Had thoght it mght be Sorbus microphylla, due to the leaf size but will go through that list and see if i can find a better fit.

Leaves have 9 pairs and a single leaf at the end.

my3cents

If its a garden in Ireland that tends to reduce the chance of it being something really rare which might rule out S microphylla?

A bit more common but similar is Sorbus cachmiriana 6-9 pairs of leaflets, it comes true from seed so propagation isn't difficult, not known however for its autumn colour, the leaves normally drop without colouring.

Looking at your pic I would say that its unlikely to be any spp that has more than 10 or more pairs of leaves which reduces the field a bit.

The other quite common Sorbus in gardens is Sorbus 'Joseph Rock' 7-10 pairs of leaves plus the one at the end. In your pic it would be hard to see the first of the pairs of leaves near the base of the stalk as they can be quite small. Joseph Rock does at least have good Autumn colour and normally fruits well look out for yellow fruit next year they contrast strongly with the good autumn colour. Check the twigs and smaller branches for characteristic lenticels - a bit like warts another indication its Joseph Rock. BUT my gut feeling from the pic is that the leaves aren't quite wide enough to be Joseph Rock.

Thud

Here's the leaves (left) beside rowan (middle) and what i thought was a rowan (right) but might be another sorbus

my3cents

I'm back to my first guess from that picture, Sorbus vilmorinii, not 100% sure but the best I can do, post back next year when you have some fruit on it

The second two leaves are almost definitely Rowan, Sorbus arcuparia.

Thud

No berries, this year or last. Will update if theres any next year.
Rose feed/potash suggested elsewhere to promote flowering-fruiting over leave production, might try that.

Will keep reading through that website too..might take a while!