Was MPG your only reason to go electric?

biko

I see in a lot of threads the discussion on mpg - ranges, fuel savings etc, but rarely do I see discussions about the environmental aspects.

For me it's less about fuel savings or the economics of it all. It is about the technology itself and trying to go a bit greener.

KCross

If you declare your reasons as environmental you will have all the crank pots coming out of the woodwork saying the batteries are evil and worse for the environment!

My reasons, in rough order....

1) Fuel savings
2) Electric drive (smooth, more relaxing to drive particularly in traffic).
3) Environment
4) Reduced maintenance (I service my own ICE). So it give me back some time.

biko

I agree on the smoothness of the drive, autobox was one of my "must haves" and the CVT in the Outlander is very nice.

irishgrover

1. Cost neutrality and hopefully savings
2. Environmental impact - example for kids...
3. Play with new technology
4. 1st and last time I would ever but a new car (well demo, but as close as I will ever get)

ELM327

My reason (and only) was fuel savings.
I'm not seeing the fuel savings at the moment despite doing 60k km per year so I'm considering my options.
Loan repayment of €500 p/m will get you a lot of petrol. The savings are there if you buy a cheaper EV like an older leaf.
It's not always greener on the other side if you pardon the awful pun.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not seeing the fuel savings at the moment despite doing 60k km per year so I'm considering my options.
Loan repayment of €500 p/m will get you a lot of petrol. The savings are there if you buy a cheaper EV like an older leaf.
It's not always greener on the other side if you pardon the awful pun.

How come you dont see the savings? You must be saving several thousands a year on fuel?

Your loan repayments, I would have thought, are irrelevant to that calculation because you need to buy a car anyway. You can always say its cheaper to go down to the bangernomics level but thats not an apples to apples comparison then.... you set your sight on the type and price of car you want. It doesn't matter whether its ICE or EV the repayments will be the same for that budget..... but the EV will save you thousands on fuel.

Do you look at it differently?

And your Ioniq is probably going to hold its value so that €500/pm isn't exactly going down the drain either... .you have equity at the end.

ELM327

KCross wrote: »

How come you dont see the savings? You must be saving several thousands a year on fuel?

Your loan repayments, I would have thought, are irrelevant to that calculation because you need to buy a car anyway. You can always say its cheaper to go down to the bangernomics level but thats not an apples to apples comparison then.... you set your sight on the type and price of car you want. It doesn't matter whether its ICE or EV the repayments will be the same for that budget..... but the EV will save you thousands on fuel.

Do you look at it differently?

And your Ioniq is probably going to hold its value so that €500/pm isn't exactly going down the drain either... .you have equity at the end.

With my L24 I was saving money based on a depreciation to 0 over 3 years ownership model and the fuel cost was more expensive than the loan repayment, loan was like 240 or so. My fuel cost in the likes of a 320d or something is about 350 per month. Maybe 400 in a busy month. Plus about €100 in tolls (which is reduced to €50 in the EV)



So it's costing me about 150-250 per month to drive a newer car that's an EV with all the inherent problems of the crap charging network, broken chargers and queuing. The Ioniq is the best EV out there for what I'm doing (mostly motorway) but it's just not adding up for me.


I'd never buy a new car, the idea of buiying a new (well, ex demo) EV was to save money. And it doesn't seem to be.


Regarding depreciation I don't see that the car is depreciating less than the €500 per month loan repayment. Currently I owe €24k on the finance and it's not worth much more than that.

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

My reason (and only) was fuel savings.
I'm not seeing the fuel savings at the moment despite doing 60k km per year so I'm considering my options.
Loan repayment of €500 p/m will get you a lot of petrol. The savings are there if you buy a cheaper EV like an older leaf.
It's not always greener on the other side if you pardon the awful pun.

How are you not seeing Savings on fuel if you are doing 60K per year?

what car are you driving ?

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

How are you not seeing Savings on fuel if you are doing 60K per year?

what car are you driving ?

Currently in an Ioniq BEV.

Previous cars were generally 6-10 year old diesel repmobiles (had a few different hobby/classic cars but they didnt see daily use).
Fuel costs etc as above.
Ioniq loan repayment is €500 approx


I'll be honest I've spent the morning on donedeal looking at cheap diesel cars as I'm sick of paying more per month than what it woudl have cost me before, for an inferior product.

listermint

Im kinda confused though.

By estimation id say id give the 320D a fair (which is being fair) 45MPG efficiency or 6.3l/100km

@ 60,000 km per year you'd need to circa 5K dumped on Diesel alone, Couple with servicing costs of that year car id say 700-100- per year on it.So your in for 6000K.

If you are charging the EV at home, how are you not making fuel savings here?

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

Im kinda confused though.

By estimation id say id give the 320D a fair (which is being fair) 45MPG efficiency or 6.3l/100km

@ 60,000 km per year you'd need to circa 5K dumped on Diesel alone, Couple with servicing costs of that year car id say 700-100- per year on it.So your in for 6000K.

If you are charging the EV at home, how are you not making fuel savings here?

I dont have a home charger, car charged at work for free 85% of the time and the other 15% is on the public network.


My point is I'm not seeing a pay back on the €526 repayment per month. So it's more than my fuel cost and (especially at the miles I'm doing) the car is depreciating more than I'm saving.


Correct me if I've missed anything.

@OP sorry I've derailed your thread but I think this is an important discussion based on EV TCO. Mods perhaps this might be best as a separate thread?

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

With my L24 I was saving money based on a depreciation to 0 over 3 years ownership model and the fuel cost was more expensive than the loan repayment, loan was like 240 or so. My fuel cost in the likes of a 320d or something is about 350 per month. Maybe 400 in a busy month. Plus about €100 in tolls (which is reduced to €50 in the EV)



So it's costing me about 150-250 per month to drive a newer car that's an EV with all the inherent problems of the crap charging network, broken chargers and queuing. The Ioniq is the best EV out there for what I'm doing (mostly motorway) but it's just not adding up for me.


I'd never buy a new car, the idea of buiying a new (well, ex demo) EV was to save money. And it doesn't seem to be.


Regarding depreciation I don't see that the car is depreciating less than the €500 per month loan repayment. Currently I owe €24k on the finance and it's not worth much more than that.

Every man for himself but I'm not quite getting your logic.

If a 320d costs you €25k to buy (s/h obviously) and you spend €25k on an Ioniq... aren't the repayments the same but the running costs are less on the Ioniq by a significant margin because of fuel?

Looking at cheaper diesels is going down to the bangernomics level so then you would of course have to look at cheaper second hand Leaf's to get matching price down at that level and of course that's a world of pain then for you as the Leaf wont be suitable for your commute with the state of the network.... but I think, correct me if Im wrong, your argument is more about what you are prepared to spend on a car rather than there are no savings to be made?

i.e. You could have a cheap 320d with little or no loan costs and spend €500 on fuel and tolls. Or you could have a s/h Ioniq with a big loan and low running costs. Both give the same overall spend (roughly) but not quite an apples to apples comparison.

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

I dont have a home charger, car charged at work for free 85% of the time and the other 15% is on the public network.


My point is I'm not seeing a pay back on the €526 repayment per month. So it's more than my fuel cost and (especially at the miles I'm doing) the car is depreciating more than I'm saving.


Correct me if I've missed anything

By my calculations your about 312 Euro for the entire year in the difference or 26 per month to drive a new car.

And I dont see anything that indicates fast acceleration in depreciation on an Ioniq. Where do you see examples of that ?

Back in 2015 when we bought our 1st BEV it was:
1. Tech/something different
2. Cost per km/Scrappage deal to make purchase price affordable

Now 2018:
1. Driving experience and convinience of charging at home
2. Tech
3. Cost per km

Cost per km is always a nice bonus to have but these days both drivers are mainly won over by the relaxing drive and smooth performance of a BEV. It's just a superior driving experience compared to conventional cars in the same price range.

Sabre Man

I bought an EV mostly for tech reasons but also for motor tax (was paying €1,809 per year) and environmental reasons.

I don't really care about mpg.

slave1

Huge amount of short runs for us, up to 18 on a busy day with kids drop offs etc.
Seemed a waste of an ICE whereas EV is perfect and the remote control air con too for Winter.

So for us it was driving pattern.

mr chips

Not yet an EV owner, but I lurk on this forum several times a week as I'm very keen on the idea. I've done the brand-new car thing a couple of times and I won't be going down that route again (unless for an EV) - the level of depreciation just isn't worth it to me, and I just don't get starry-eyed at the thought of having shiny new stuff, be it a car or a phone or a telly or whatever. The embodied energy in an existing used car means that keeping a well-maintained older machine on the road makes sense both financially and from an environmental perspective, so now I'm at the bangernomics end of the scale driving a 17 year old diesel.

I hope to convert it to EV eventually, once the availability and affordability of used or maybe even new battery modules makes that a viable option. I know of one which has been done over in Poland at a cost equating to just over €3500, but it's still just a proof of concept / work in progress - range is only something like 140km and a lot of that's at city speeds. I regularly travel about 900km of a weekend up to a dozen times a year, so a range of 300-400km would be a must for me - I couldn't be doing with spending two or three extra hours on every trip charging, or queuing to charge. Whatever the cost of conversion, I'd need it to pay for itself within about 4 years, bearing in mind the possibility that one RTA could wipe out the entire investment, which means it's at least a couple of years away if not more.

So my main reason for wanting to do this is environmental - were that not a priority then I'd just be sticking with diesel. But it has to make sense for me both in terms of the economics and usability.

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

By my calculations your about 312 Euro for the entire year in the difference or 26 per month to drive a new car.

And I dont see anything that indicates fast acceleration in depreciation on an Ioniq. Where do you see examples of that ?

I'm not saying there's fast depreciation in an Ioniq. But if I were to sell it now at say 25.5k would there be any takers? Even with the total odometer at just 20k km? I think not.
Considering I paid 26.5k earlier this year and have only driven it for 3 months, that 1k+ already is a lot of depreciation.

mr chips

Don't brand-new cars usually depreciate to the tune of around three grand in their first year anyway? To my way of thinking, it's not so much that it's cost you a grand, but that it's holding its value so well that it hasn't cost you a lot more ...

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not saying there's fast depreciation in an Ioniq. But if I were to sell it now at say 25.5k would there be any takers? Even with the total odometer at just 20k km? I think not.
Considering I paid 26.5k earlier this year and have only driven it for 3 months, that 1k+ already is a lot of depreciation.

I actually cant tell if your having a joke or not. Considering an equivalent ICE car would drop about 4-5K when driven off the lot let alone having miles on it.

It seems i even forget to include car tax which was 700+ on your diesel.

You are fully in the black on the Ioniq in terms of running costs. You really havent done the calculations on this properly.

n97 mini

mr chips wrote: »

Don't brand-new cars usually depreciate to the tune of around three grand in their first year anyway? To my way of thinking, it's not so much that it's cost you a grand, but that it's holding its value so well that it hasn't cost you a lot more ...

It's a percentage usually, not a hard figure. Buy a 7 series and it's probably lost 10k as soon as you drive it off the forecourt.

I usually work off 50% depreciation in the first 3 years. EVs are a bit different. Depreciation was shocking on new Leafs, but older one are increasing in value. All about supply and demand. I think the Ioniq is probably one of the slowest depreciating cars there is, again because there is so little supply.

ELM327

listermint wrote: »

I actually cant tell if your having a joke or not. Considering an equivalent ICE car would drop about 4-5K when driven off the lot let alone having miles on it.

It seems i even forget to include car tax which was 700+ on your diesel.

You are fully in the black on the Ioniq in terms of running costs. You really havent done the calculations on this properly.

I'm not joking for one second.
I'm actually doing this consideration thsi morning myself, before this thread came up - which was why I was so interested.


So let's say I tried to sell my Ioniq now, what would you think it would get? To get a handle on the depreciation. 171 Black Ioniq 20k km on the clock. Still has the dealer shine on the paintwork.

KCross

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not joking for one second.
I'm actually doing this consideration thsi morning myself, before this thread came up - which was why I was so interested.


So let's say I tried to sell my Ioniq now, what would you think it would get? To get a handle on the depreciation. 171 Black Ioniq 20k km on the clock. Still has the dealer shine on the paintwork.

I kinda get your logic now, I think, but one thing still doesn't add up.

I think what you are saying is that you would quite "happily" drive an old diesel and spend the €500/mth on fuel.

To move to EV you HAD to buy an Ioniq as the other EV's (bar Tesla) would not cover your commute without being dependent on the public infrastructure which is an unacceptable compromise. Being "forced" to spend the €26.5k on the Ioniq you are then saying that staying with old diesel or moving to EV, for you, doesn't save you money.

Thats it really, isn't it?


What doesn't add up though is that I thought you had a reservation on a Model 3? Thats going to be €40k+ so how will you justify that using the same logic as above? Or has the Model 3 idea been thrown aside?


And one other thing to consider... the maintenance on a diesel doing 60k km per year is going to be significant... DPF, dual mass flywheel, timing chain etc are all guaranteed to need replacing in short order on an old diesel you buy so I think you need to crack out the spreadsheet and put in some realistic figures for that and see what pops out in the final TCO.

I get your predicament though.

NIMAN

slave1 wrote: »

Huge amount of short runs for us, up to 18 on a busy day with kids drop offs etc.
Seemed a waste of an ICE whereas EV is perfect and the remote control air con too for Winter.

So for us it was driving pattern.

Kind of the same as this for us.

It was always going to be the 2nd car, and was intrigued by EVs. Plus we do a lot of short runs too, a couple of miles in each direction, maybe 5 miles at most, and EV suited that perfectly.

So that, combined with cheaper running costs and next to no major maintenance, sealed the deal.

Its been perfect for the job so far. And has the added bonus of being an easy drive.

listermint

ELM327 wrote: »

I'm not joking for one second.
I'm actually doing this consideration thsi morning myself, before this thread came up - which was why I was so interested.


So let's say I tried to sell my Ioniq now, what would you think it would get? To get a handle on the depreciation. 171 Black Ioniq 20k km on the clock. Still has the dealer shine on the paintwork.

25K i would have thought would be achievable.

Your still not losing money though. Your in the black. and driving a new car.

The calculations dont make sense right now.

DrPhilG

All about the environment for my wife who first suggested it.

All about the savings for me who did the math and pulled the trigger.

oinkely

1) financial - running costs Vs equivalent ice
2) charging at home and never having to visit a dirty petrol station again
3) use pattern / environment
4) turns out that auto should have been at the top of the list ;-)

draiochtanois

This post has been deleted.

eagerv

I am a prospective EV buyer.


MPG is probably not the reason for me wanting to go EV.


My driving has changed a lot over the last few years, now working close to home, so normally use my electric bike for commute.


I still have a few trips weekly of about 100Kms from home, plus all the normal family trips. I presently drive a Honda 1.5 petrol which is pretty good on fuel, my average to date is 48MPG (All calculated brim to brim). My driving routes are ideal for both petrol and EV, no motorways, mainly limits of 100 or 80Kph. An EV will have better torque, but not better HP/Tonne.



I love the idea of being independent in my fuelling, rarely needing to charge away from home, especially with the new EV's such as Kona or Niro.


Also hope in the near future to install PV on house, so with my car often sitting at home during the day makes sense to be able to put a bit of charge into car.


Probably will not make economic sense, but what ever does!:)

Orebro

I love tech so that's what grabbed my attention. Then of course the potential cost savings brought me over the line.

However! Since I've bought my Leaf 18 months ago, I've found myself really getting on board with environmentally friendly energy generation like solar. Stuff I've never had any interest in before, I find myself researching solar pv, batteries etc with the intention of one day powering my house and car substantially off-grid. Having an EV has also made me much more aware of my energy consumption - something I never thought about when filling the car with petrol.

So in summary, the main reason was cost savings but the EV it has been the catalyst for interest in other green friendly areas.

listermint

draiochtanois wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Ok drive back up the road to any other dealer after buying new and see what price theyll give you for it.


Report back.

PixelTrawler

We needed a big car with twins on the way. We’ll also be doing mainly short runs. The outlander phev is what we went for.

Its a nice non diesel option in a market dominated by diesels.

DesperateDan

Not there yet but mpg is certainly not a consideration for me, only spend 50 quid a month on diesel.

1) Sweet, modern tech. When I sit in my old banger heaving the gear stick backwards and forwards I just cannot fathom why every car since the 90s isn't automatic.
2) Maintenance. I know nothing about cars and don't have the time or patience to learn so I really could do with a car where timing belts are simply not an issue.
3) Environment. We're going to look back at the 20th and early 21st centuries and wonder why we didn't do something sooner!

optimal

For me, I had to change 2nd car. I had been looking at EVs but not too seriously but when the time came there was little doubt in my mind. The petrol savings were sufficient to fund a loan to buy a 30Kw Leaf and it’s become the first car.
I’ve had a few hairy ones in terms of getting low in charge but haven’t regretted it. Fantastic car to drive, I hate getting into the ICE.

I would be fairly environmentally friendly but at the end of the day economics were probably the key driver 😀

Orebro

Maybe things shouldn't be led by environmental concerns all the time anyway - look where the Green Party and their love of diesels has brought us.

Water John

My interest starts from environment. That interest have evolved over a long time. I believe we will have mainly go to an electric future in energy. This means mainly renewable or very low GHG emissions.
I think diesel particle and other such emissions will, in future be frowned upon. The major increase in allergies show their is some problem.

Always liked to be a fairly early adoptor.
Hopefully the 2nd car will fairly soon be BEV as well. Will still keep an old van for farming runaround. Oh lord make me pure EV, but just not yet.

daheff

PixelTrawler wrote: »

We needed a big car with twins on the way. We’ll also be doing mainly short runs. The outlander phev is what we went for.

Its a nice non diesel option in a market dominated by diesels.

how big are your twins?

unkel

Water John wrote: »

Will still keep an old van for farming runaround. Oh lord make me pure EV, but just not yet.

Did you see the Renault Kangoo Maxivan ZE in the bargain thread? It really is very cheap for what it is. And should it die, it will still be one hell of a cheap home attached 22kWh battery

tedpan

My reasons for switching to a leaf were

1. had an 8 year old Passat that was costing more and more in repairs
2. owning a new car with warranty
3. the range suited me perfectly for a 110km daily round trip
4. free public charging
5. Low road tax
6. The cost of diesel was high at the time and I was fed up putting 90e diesel in every 7-10 days

I've covered 115k in 3.5 years, not sure how much I've saved or not saved, but overall happy that I have a car that's ultra reliable and drives beautifully.

Round Cable

tedpan wrote: »

I've covered 115k in 3.5 years, not sure how much I've saved or not saved, but overall happy that I have a car that's ultra reliable and drives beautifully.

That would be approximately €5200 saved versus diesel fuel alone. Add in maintenance and tax savings and it's pretty good going.

PixelTrawler

daheff wrote: »

how big are your twins?

Its not the twins, its the pram. And all the crap you need to go with them.