Voluntary contribution

yellow canary

Has anyone experienced the voluntary contribution being repackaged into administration fees??
It seems the voluntary contribution has disappeared and has been repackaged as an admin fee which is compulsory!
Surely this is not in accordance with department guidelines and is a swift one by the school. Any feedback would be appreciated.

endacl

Do you want your kids to have the stuff it pays for?

The Dept ain’t going to cover it...

vandriver

Our school charges €170 for administration and a voluntary contribution of €250.
Are you saying that the admin charge in your school is up near €400?

yellow canary

endacl wrote: »

Do you want your kids to have the stuff it pays for?

The Dept ain’t going to cover it...

Thanks but I don’t see that your response addresses the question I asked. If we could all rewrite the rules and regulations which govern and oversee these bodies I’m afraid that you and I would probably fund the whole educational system. Corporate governance and ethics exists for a reason.

yellow canary

vandriver wrote: »

Our school charges €170 for administration and a voluntary contribution of €250.
Are you saying that the admin charge in your school is up near €400?

If you are happy to pay these fees then that most definitely is your prerogative. However the amount is not in question here, just the legitimacy of it.

vandriver

yellow canary wrote: »

If you are happy to pay these fees then that most definitely is your prerogative. However the amount is not in question here, just the legitimacy of it.

You may want to live in a utopian society where everything is free and well funded.
However,my kids will be competing with graduates from very well funded private schools,so anything I can do to slightly narrow the gap,I will.

splinter65

If it's a question of genuinely not being in a position to pay it then speak to the principal.

yellow canary

vandriver wrote: »

You may want to live in a utopian society where everything is free and well funded.
However,my kids will be competing with graduates from very well funded private schools,so anything I can do to slightly narrow the gap,I will.

“Free” would imply that we don’t already pay taxes my dear, glad that you enjoy the system of double taxation we live in and a society where it is wrong to question authority. Single mindedness will serve our children much better in their future rather than a docile society where we merely obey.

yellow canary

splinter65 wrote: »

If it's a question of genuinely not being in a position to pay it then speak to the principal.

It’s not and I have traditionally always paid it,however it’s the dishonesty I have a problem with. It seems that the norm in society is a capitalist view where people take whatever they want through deceitful means. We expect that from governments but not people with whom good working relationships and thrust are vital in sustaining a healthy environment.

vandriver

yellow canary wrote: »

“Free” would imply that we don’t already pay taxes my dear, glad that you enjoy the system of double taxation we live in and a society where it is wrong to question authority. Single mindedness will serve our children much better in their future rather than a docile society where we merely obey.

Has anyone ever told you that you sound a bit patronising in your posting style?

yellow canary

vandriver wrote: »

Has anyone ever told you that you sound a bit patronising in your posting style?

Thanks I will take that on board. Just trying to have an open discussion. I guess we are on very different pages as far as social conscious goes which is fine too. You are also more than entitled to your views, hence open discussion.

Chilli Con Kearney

yellow canary wrote: »

Thanks I will take that on board. Just trying to have an open discussion. I guess we are on very different pages as far as social conscious goes which is fine too. You are also more than entitled to your views, hence open discussion.

Schools receive a capitation per student. There are different levels of capitation depending on the type of school: fee paying, voluntary sector or ETB.

Fee paying get less per student as they also get fees from parents and generally, funding or support from past pupils.

The capitation goes towards general running of the school for students, be this admin costs, PE equipment, musical instruments, sports jerseys, guest speakers coming in, running costs such as insurance etc.

The reality is that the capitation does not cover the running costs of the school and so they need to overcome the shortfall somehow, in order to provide the educational experiences that students and parents demand. If parents no longer wish to pay, then the reality is that schools cannot offer what is wanted.

When the minister of education is asked about voluntary contributions, he often refers to money being put into teachers salaries instead of increasing the capitation, so that the burden of the voluntary contribution is eased on parents.

But this is a misnomer. The increasing teacher costs are easily explained - more students in the system means more teachers are required. So the government are not willing to pay more salaries, as well as giving more capitation (hence easing the pressure on parents). Therefore, the net outcome is that parents are needed to help.

Whether people like it or not, this is the reality of the situation.

yellow canary

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

Schools receive a capitation per student. There are different levels of capitation depending on the type of school: fee paying, voluntary sector or ETB.

Fee paying get less per student as they also get fees from parents and generally, funding or support from past pupils.

The capitation goes towards general running of the school for students, be this admin costs, PE equipment, musical instruments, sports jerseys, guest speakers coming in, running costs such as insurance etc.

The reality is that the capitation does not cover the running costs of the school and so they need to overcome the shortfall somehow, in order to provide the educational experiences that students and parents demand. If parents no longer wish to pay, then the reality is that schools cannot offer what is wanted.

When the minister of education is asked about voluntary contributions, he often refers to money being put into teachers salaries instead of increasing the capitation, so that the burden of the voluntary contribution is eased on parents.

But this is a misnomer. The increasing teacher costs are easily explained - more students in the system means more teachers are required. So the government are not willing to pay more salaries, as well as giving more capitation (hence easing the pressure on parents). Therefore, the net outcome is that parents are needed to help.

Whether people like it or not, this is the reality of the situation.

I absolutely understand the predicament schools are faced with and ultimately the burden falls to parents, however schools must be transparent when asking for funds, otherwise it is just plain dishonest and creates a sense of mistrust in the relationship between school and parent. If a manager was to randomly reduce someone’s wage or implement some charge I don’t thing many staff would tolerate it. The same I believe applies here.

Chilli Con Kearney

yellow canary wrote: »

I absolutely understand the predicament schools are faced with and ultimately the burden falls to parents, however schools must be transparent when asking for funds, otherwise it is just plain dishonest and creates a sense of mistrust in the relationship between school and parent. If a manager was to randomly reduce someone’s wage or implement some charge I don’t thing many staff would tolerate it. The same I believe applies here.

It's not mishonest. This is what the money is used for - photocopying, running costs, etc.

What would you prefer they say/do?

yellow canary

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

It's not mishonest. This is what the money is used for - photocopying, running costs, etc.

What would you prefer they say/do?

Thanks for your perspective, it’s good to get others Opinion on things. I just feel that voluntary should remain voluntary until guidelines dictate otherwise, it’s apparent that other schools implement administrative fees, I’m not sure if they are adhering to guidelines and if they are then so be it. If they are not then it should be ok to question that too. I guess it’s the way it has been done more so than anything else I have a problem with. Thanks again for your feedback

Chilli Con Kearney

yellow canary wrote: »

Thanks for your perspective, it’s good to get others Opinion on things. I just feel that voluntary should remain voluntary until guidelines dictate otherwise, it’s apparent that other schools implement administrative fees, I’m not sure if they are adhering to guidelines and if they are then so be it. If they are not then it should be ok to question that too. I guess it’s the way it has been done more so than anything else I have a problem with. Thanks again for your feedback

But does it matter what it's called? Or how schools ask for it? To be honest, they are basically begging for it. It may come across like pressure, but schools know that without it, they're in big trouble.

The problem is that is voluntary and there are some who give and some who don't. If you do and I don't, I still expect the same educational offering in the school for my child as you do for yours. Is that fair? I'm not paying for the parts that the school cannot afford yet all parents and students expect the same treatment.

Take for example an issue with online or social media bullying. Where a school decides afterwards, to get in experts to talk to parents and students in workshops about this. There is no money for this. It comes out of the voluntary contribution. You paid, i didn't. You and your child go. I do too. Is that OK?

How do the school apportion out to you and your child, the small piece of the ESB that you have effectively paid for?

The reality is plain for all to see. People seem to blame 'the school' for asking or pushing for the voluntary contribution. But if you and the others stopped paying tomorrow, like I did, then the school simply could not function. That's the reality. No point pretending otherwise.

I'm not saying yay for voluntary contributions by the way. I'm just telling you that school would not work without it. Not with how we fund (or underfund if we're honest) education in Ireland. To be honest with you, the education model is not fit or funded for purpose anymore.

yellow canary

I agree that the educational system is not fit for purpose, that goes without saying but the push back must come from some where. If we tolerate it all where do we end?? I can only say that when I asked the original question it got some what lost in translation , I was asking about ethics not the fee, I am fortunate to be able pay the costs but not all are and also department guidelines have a purpose even if we are not always in favor depending which line we stand on. If a school wants money don’t treat us with contempt and cover our eyes but be honest in their endeavors.

Chilli Con Kearney

yellow canary wrote: »

I agree that the educational system is not fit for purpose, that goes without saying but the push back must come from some where. If we tolerate it all where do we end?? I can only say that when I asked the original question it got some what lost in translation , I was asking about ethics not the fee, I am fortunate to be able pay the costs but not all are and also department guidelines have a purpose even if we are not always in favor depending which line we stand on. If a school wants money don’t treat us with contempt and cover our eyes but be honest in their endeavors.

The letter, if there is a push back, would read something like this then:

Dear parent
We cannot afford to run our school on the funding we get from the government. We pay full vat on all purchases and water charges too.
We pay for all the extra add ons that your children get - everything from sports equipment to workshops to whatever you can think of.
We also pay astronomical running costs such as insurance, because of cases taken by parents about accidents.
Please help us and donate today. Otherwise we will be unable to provide your child with the educational experiences that you expect of a school today.
If we can't get enough money then we might have to close. Either that, or we will run loads of cake sales, sponsored walks, etc. You'll probably pay for these anyhow we reckon.
So let's call a spade a spade.
Yours in education etc.

I'd love to meet with the principal who sends that letter out. I'd also love to see how they get on in a few years when they are seeking funding for building or assistance from the department.

Nobody is treating parents with contempt or trying to pull the wool over your eyes. These are normal people with families too (principals and teachers).

You may feel that it is unethical for schools to ask for money. I see what you mean. But the state only really provide free primary education. They bluff about banning contributions but if they did they'd literally have to pour millions into schools to keep them open. I'm not joking when I tell you of schools that count the days they put the heating on. Outside of these, if it's cold - jackets on lads.

It's also unethical to have front line staff in hospitals working psycho hours and a bloated middle management coasting on the gravy train. But nobody's doing anything about that.

Please try to distinguish and unravel the issue here. Schools are simply asking for help. Pushing for it if you'd prefer. They don't "want money" as you say. It's not greed. It's not building up reserves. It's survival.

You may say it's unethical. But how are we paying for the decrepit water system we no longer pay charges for? How are we paying for the contract staff in hospitals who actually cost more than hiring public nurses, but it looks good to keep official staff numbers down? Who's paying for the hotels that are charging top dollar per night for homeless people? It's all coming from the same pot and unfortunately improved funds for schools (hence decreasing the reliance on voluntary contributions) is way down the pecking order. That's just the reality of where we are.

evolving_doors

Chilli Con Kearney wrote: »

But does it matter what it's called? Or how schools ask for it? To be honest, they are basically begging for it. It may come across like pressure, but schools know that without it, they're in big trouble.

The problem is that is voluntary and there are some who give and some who don't. If you do and I don't, I still expect the same educational offering in the school for my child as you do for yours. Is that fair? I'm not paying for the parts that the school cannot afford yet all parents and students expect the same treatment.

Take for example an issue with online or social media bullying. Where a school decides afterwards, to get in experts to talk to parents and students in workshops about this. There is no money for this. It comes out of the voluntary contribution. You paid, i didn't. You and your child go. I do too. Is that OK?

How do the school apportion out to you and your child, the small piece of the ESB that you have effectively paid for?

The reality is plain for all to see. People seem to blame 'the school' for asking or pushing for the voluntary contribution. But if you and the others stopped paying tomorrow, like I did, then the school simply could not function. That's the reality. No point pretending otherwise.

I'm not saying yay for voluntary contributions by the way. I'm just telling you that school would not work without it. Not with how we fund (or underfund if we're honest) education in Ireland. To be honest with you, the education model is not fit or funded for purpose anymore.

So call it 'School Fees' and be done with it.
USing the 'reality of the situation' logic above would be justification for similar charges for going into hospital (bed linen charges, gown charges, use of soap charges)... or getting on a bus (use of fuel charge, stair maintenance charge, data use for CCTV charge)... all wrapped up as ancillary charges of course.

I think the more people pay the less the dept pay, once you start compensating for the cuts in capitation then it means you don't really need it.
Do the politicians pay for photocopying and toilet paper in the Dáil?

But maybe the govt. should start calling the Capitation Grant... a Capitation Contribution, as they don't actually cover what's required for basic day to day.
https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/education/revealed-how-much-parents-actually-pay-for-free-primary-education-36833508.html

Anyone know what it is in Northern Ireland?

rainbowtrout

yellow canary wrote: »

I agree that the educational system is not fit for purpose, that goes without saying but the push back must come from some where. If we tolerate it all where do we end?? I can only say that when I asked the original question it got some what lost in translation , I was asking about ethics not the fee, I am fortunate to be able pay the costs but not all are and also department guidelines have a purpose even if we are not always in favor depending which line we stand on. If a school wants money don’t treat us with contempt and cover our eyes but be honest in their endeavors.

Right here is the ethics of the situation. The government decided this year that they would outlaw the request from schools for voluntary contributions. They have not increased capitation to schools to make up the shortfall for all the things listed by other posters which are paid for by voluntary contributions. Schools will not function without voluntary contributions. Principals/Boards of management have obviously looked at this and knowing that they can't function without these funds, have decided to call it an enrolment fee or something similar, to ensure they still have funding.

You can get up on your high horse all you want about it, and whinge about ethics, but it's the same contribution it was last year and it will pay for the exact same things it paid for last year.

Or you can take a stand against those unethical schools and not pay it because you disagree with the 'enrolment fee', but don't be too surprised when your child comes home in the winter complaining that there was no heating in the school and they sat in classrooms with their coats on all day, or there was no toilet paper in the bathrooms.

yellow canary

rainbowtrout wrote: »

Right here is the ethics of the situation. The government decided this year that they would outlaw the request from schools for voluntary contributions. They have not increased capitation to schools to make up the shortfall for all the things listed by other posters which are paid for by voluntary contributions. Schools will not function without voluntary contributions. Principals/Boards of management have obviously looked at this and knowing that they can't function without these funds, have decided to call it an enrolment fee or something similar, to ensure they still have funding.

You can get up on your high horse all you want about it, and whinge about ethics, but it's the same contribution it was last year and it will pay for the exact same things it paid for last year.

Or you can take a stand against those unethical schools and not pay it because you disagree with the 'enrolment fee', but don't be too surprised when your child comes home in the winter complaining that there was no heating in the school and they sat in classrooms with their coats on all day, or there was no toilet paper in the bathrooms.

Voluntary is voluntary, like it or not and no rewording can change that

splinter65

yellow canary wrote: »

Voluntary is voluntary, like it or not and no rewording can change that

I'm interested to know how, if you were sitting on the BOM, you would propose to raise the extra money needed to make school a nice experience for your child.
You could always get involved incidentally via the parents council.
What would be your proposals?