So many races cancelled

Derrydingle

Another race cancelled this morning the leinster championship in dundalk. Called off at the last minute due to no first aid support. I have never seen so many races cancelled this year. And with stage races like connacht and wexford cancelled which a lot of guys booking a place to stay and race that weekend are out of pocket too. It's not a good sign for next year.

magicbastarder

who would usually provide first aid support? just wondering if a lot of that support would have been in the phoenix park today.

daragh_

The weather also played a factor in todays cancellation.

Derrydingle

daragh_ wrote:

The weather also played a factor in todays cancellation.

Do you mean the some marshals not turning up because of the rain?

LCD

I am from Cuchulainn. We got a message Saturday night at 8pm saying Red Cross were reneging on their commitment to provide a certified first aid person. We searched desperately, but of a Saturday night this was not easy. By Sunday morning we knew we wouldn't have medical cover & with great regret made the decision to call it off.
Club is out of pocket over it as the caterers still had to be paid, as their prep had been done on the Saturday.

JimmiesRustled

Bit of a joke really. Racing in Leinster is propped up by a very small amount of clubs. It's always the same lads organising races. Theres little to no thanks for putting it on but god forbid you have a genuine reason for cancelling. Some of the comments elsewhere sayings that it's "disgraceful" that the race was called off. People need to start looking at their own clubs and what they can do to help the road scene.

thekooman

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Bit of a joke really. Racing in Leinster is propped up by a very small amount of clubs. It's always the same lads organising races. Theres little to no thanks for putting it on but god forbid you have a genuine reason for cancelling. Some of the comments elsewhere sayings that it's "disgraceful" that the race was called off. People need to start looking at their own clubs and what they can do to help the road scene.

here here... well said.
we organised a race this year... 15 turned up for A4 and 45 for the main race. out of pocket by a few hundred quid. We'd have to look into sponsorship for next year to cover prizes but with only 60 turning up who'd sponsor that!
much much bigger clubs are not running races because no one will take them on but lads racing in these clubs expect races to be on every weekend.

Derrydingle

LCD wrote:

I am from Cuchulainn. We got a message Saturday night at 8pm saying Red Cross were reneging on their commitment to provide a certified first aid person. We searched desperately, but of a Saturday night this was not easy. By Sunday morning we knew we wouldn't have medical cover & with great regret made the decision to call it off. Club is out of pocket over it as the caterers still had to be paid, as their prep had been done on the Saturday.

Is the club looking at running it later in the season or is it a no go for this year?

LCD

Derrydingle wrote: »

Is the club looking at running it later in the season or is it a no go for this year?

Unlikely. This weekend have a race in Leinster Saturday & Sunday.
8th/9th is Nationals so you won't get a field.
15th/16th is races in Leinster Saturday & Sunday
22nd/23rd Is a race in Leinster that Sunday

At this stage of the season you are really getting worried about pulling in sufficient numbers to cover costs. Also with CX starting a lot of people who might race are heading to them

CramCycle

LCD wrote: »

I am from Cuchulainn. We got a message Saturday night at 8pm saying Red Cross were reneging on their commitment to provide a certified first aid person. We searched desperately, but of a Saturday night this was not easy. By Sunday morning we knew we wouldn't have medical cover & with great regret made the decision to call it off.
Club is out of pocket over it as the caterers still had to be paid, as their prep had been done on the Saturday.

Its a tough call but you made the right one. I was once at the line and having riders read me the riot act because I wouldn't let the race go ahead as we had no Ambulance. I had lads who should know better, telling me it would be grand, they'd follow around and so on. Without cover there is no insurance, without insurance, the person or club who sends riders off will be the ones up against the wall if something does go wrong. The ambulance did turn up eventually, they had been pulled over to a RTA on the way to us and pulled over to assist until the regular ambulances arrived, which is more than reasonable.

In future I'd recommend sending out a request via twitter, here and facebook for cover as (and maybe you did), there are a number of smaller ambulance providers who would be looking to get in there. They are typically more than Red Cross and others we all use but in a pinch, they have covered us and not for a huge amount more than the regular crowds.
Since this was meant to be the Leinster champs, is there anything in the Leinster coffers to help ye out for the loss on the food prep?

Taxuser1

This might not be popular but the whole running of the Leinster champs seemed like an afterthought particularly if you compare it to the Munster champs which had a July registration on cycling ireland online, race winner jerseys, separate Masters races etc and the route planned from months out. their race was all over social media as well. I can't remember seeing one post on the Leinster's anywhere. How was anyone supposed to know.

It appeared a last minute decision to hold the race by the club, who in fairness might have answered the call from Cycling Leinster when no one else stood up, leaving them to scramble for cover which was, of all the weekends, otherwise engaged. It had been known that the Pope was coming for how long now? How did the powers that be decide that this weekend would be suitable for a Champs race in Leinster.

just all seemed nonsense from the start.

Finnrocco

It was possibly due to the Popes visit, I'd say (but not sure) that all First Aid providers were diverted to cover that.

The track champs were moved from this weekend to last for reasons of logistics, getting around town, hotel rooms etc - never thought of first aid provision but it could have been an issue also.

Organisers cannot put on a race without first aid cover, its just not worth it.

Also agree that there are trojans in our sport organising races on the road and particularly on the track.

Peterx

Slightly off topic but it regularly comes up about prizes and prize money.
It's madness (in my opinion) to commit to fixed amounts of prize money without guaranteed entry numbers.
Prize money could either be scrapped or maintained at a set percentage of entry income.
It's not feasible for clubs to keep running a loss

CramCycle

The prize money is weird and I think a hang up from years ago. Some organisers think without prize money, riders won't come. At A4 and possibly A3, this is simply untrue. It will be one of my proposals at the AGM this year to ban monetary prizes for A4, maybe A3 as well.

RobertFoster

I think most are more interested in how many points they got rather than a prize.

wav1

Provincial champs dates were set at cyc ire agm last november long before pope was an issue.
Agreement for cuchulainn to promote reached last march so it wasn't a last minute thing.medals and champs jerseys all in place.
Just unfortunate set of circumstances at weekend and fyi having talked with them last night champs go ahead sun sept 30th

wav1

CramCycle wrote: »

The prize money is weird and I think a hang up from years ago. Some organisers think without prize money, riders won't come. At A4 and possibly A3, this is simply untrue. It will be one of my proposals at the AGM this year to ban monetary prizes for A4, maybe A3 as well.

When a4 cat was introduced about 2010 regulation was for non monetry prizes but was amended some time later as it was deemed to be unfair etc..we mix and match at our races some money some non money etc..would be nice to have debate at agm to attract people over to ballinasloe.cut off for motions sept 21st

CramCycle

I'll be there, I opened another thread for proposals as I'd be interested in what others are thinking

LCD

Race is scheduled for September 30th

Gekko1

RobertFoster wrote: »

I think most are more interested in how many points they got rather than a prize.

Points before prizes any day. Although a nice piece of crystal or similar is a nice touch & always something a winner will have.

One point I'd like to raise is the issue of Pre Entry registration to races. Firstly, I thought this was now mandatory for all open racing since last year's agm?
The benefit of this is not being realised by clubs running races imo. 1. People pre pay so more likely to turn up. 2. Clubs know how many riders will be there on the day for catering purposes. 3. Clubs can budget prize money depending on number of entrants. 4. And most importantly it leads to safer races with limited fields in each category.

wav1

Gekko1 wrote: »

Points before prizes any day. Although a nice piece of crystal or similar is a nice touch & always something a winner will have.

One point I'd like to raise is the issue of Pre Entry registration to races. Firstly, I thought this was now mandatory for all open racing since last year's agm?
The benefit of this is not being realised by clubs running races imo. 1. People pre pay so more likely to turn up. 2. Clubs know how many riders will be there on the day for catering purposes. 3. Clubs can budget prize money depending on number of entrants. 4. And most importantly it leads to safer races with limited fields in each category.

Pre entry is not mandatory

Gekko1

wav1 wrote: »

Gekko1 wrote: »

Points before prizes any day. Although a nice piece of crystal or similar is a nice touch & always something a winner will have.

One point I'd like to raise is the issue of Pre Entry registration to races. Firstly, I thought this was now mandatory for all open racing since last year's agm?
The benefit of this is not being realised by clubs running races imo. 1. People pre pay so more likely to turn up. 2. Clubs know how many riders will be there on the day for catering purposes. 3. Clubs can budget prize money depending on number of entrants. 4. And most importantly it leads to safer races with limited fields in each category.

Pre entry is not mandatory

wav1 wrote: »

Gekko1 wrote: »

Points before prizes any day. Although a nice piece of crystal or similar is a nice touch & always something a winner will have.

One point I'd like to raise is the issue of Pre Entry registration to races. Firstly, I thought this was now mandatory for all open racing since last year's agm?
The benefit of this is not being realised by clubs running races imo. 1. People pre pay so more likely to turn up. 2. Clubs know how many riders will be there on the day for catering purposes. 3. Clubs can budget prize money depending on number of entrants. 4. And most importantly it leads to safer races with limited fields in each category.

Pre entry is not mandatory

Maybe it should be then? I recall this issue was discussed before the last CI AGM?

RobFowl

Gekko1 wrote: »

Maybe it should be then? I recall this issue was discussed before the last CI AGM?

If you feel it should be mandatory make a submission through CI for the AGM then go to the AGM and argue for it...

Macy0161

Gekko1 wrote: »

Maybe it should be then? I recall this issue was discussed before the last CI AGM?

I thought it was supposed to be for A4?

wav1

Macy0161 wrote: »

I thought it was supposed to be for A4?

Fields are limited..that was passed..but bo mandatory pre entry.as robfowl says only one platform.thats ballinasloe in november

CramCycle

Gekko1 wrote: »

Maybe it should be then? I recall this issue was discussed before the last CI AGM?

I think one main reason against was issues on the site making it untenable. A few races this year tried online only but a few had to say on the day when it didn't work. The other big issue with this was that some organisers were worried that it would put off a lot of last minute racers, many of us, due to family or work, don't know until the day before. Happy enough for it to be left to the organiser. They take the risk so they can make the call, although I can also see the benefits.

wav1

CramCycle wrote: »

I think one main reason against was issues on the site making it untenable. A few races this year tried online only but a few had to say on the day when it didn't work. The other big issue with this was that some organisers were worried that it would put off a lot of last minute racers, many of us, due to family or work, don't know until the day before. Happy enough for it to be left to the organiser. They take the risk so they can make the call, although I can also see the benefits.[/quote
Yes that was the logic.putting off last minuters.
Should be left to the organiser to decide..the cap put on the field sizes were never a headache for any organisers this year.

Beasty

Pre-registration, points for prizes etc are really not matters for the CI AGM (I know these are the sorts of things that usually get raised). There was a push a couple of years ago to get the Road Commission operational again. That's where these decisions should be made and not on the whim of whoever turns up to the AGM in any particular year.

I'm pleased to report the IVCA now takes racing matters into a separate meeting with discussion but non-binding decisions.

On the point of insurance and no ambulance cover, we are now required to file management/safety plans with CI. It may not be mandatory to have such cover, but equally the safety plan should set out the steps being taken to reduce risk in this area (and others). Any club putting on an event that does not follow all material matters included in the plan do leave themselves open to claims from riders or the general public should anything untoward happen.

CramCycle

Beasty wrote: »

Pre-registration, points for prizes etc are really not matters for the CI AGM (I know these are the sorts of things that usually get raised). There was a push a couple of years ago to get the Road Commission operational again. That's where these decisions should be made and not on the whim of whoever turns up to the AGM in any particular year.

But until a road commission comes into effect and has an AGM, then this is the way it will be. Maybe a suggestion of a road AGM to be held annually, on the same day as the AGM but at a separate time. You are 100% correct but until someone actually sets up this AGM for the road, it will not happen.

I'm pleased to report the IVCA now takes racing matters into a separate meeting with discussion but non-binding decisions.

If there is a road AGM, the decisions should be binding for at least a year, otherwise whats the point.

On the point of insurance and no ambulance cover, we are now required to file management/safety plans with CI. It may not be mandatory to have such cover, but equally the safety plan should set out the steps being taken to reduce risk in this area (and others). Any club putting on an event that does not follow all material matters included in the plan do leave themselves open to claims from riders or the general public should anything untoward happen.

I was pretty sure (but could be wrong) that an ambulance (and possibly a separate first aider) is required at all events, except for Corkagh Park and Sundrive (proximity to city centre and presumed quick response times to a call). Am I wrong?

wav1

CramCycle wrote: »

But until a road commission comes into effect and has an AGM, then this is the way it will be. Maybe a suggestion of a road AGM to be held annually, on the same day as the AGM but at a separate time. You are 100% correct but until someone actually sets up this AGM for the road, it will not happen.

If there is a road AGM, the decisions should be binding for at least a year, otherwise whats the point.

I was pretty sure (but could be wrong) that an ambulance (and possibly a separate first aider) is required at all events, except for Corkagh Park and Sundrive (proximity to city centre and presumed quick response times to a call). Am I wrong?

There is a road commission in place that meet regularly and discuss lots inc race cancellations race safety etc..actually working quite well for a change..there is nothing in the regulations saying you have to have an ambulance..medical cover it says and thats very.loose..as it stands r/c have no rights to make changes.they have to bring recomendations to cuc ire agm like everyone else..brought lots last yr..some good some bad.

CramCycle

Do you think said road commission should be given an AGM and take all these points away from the business AGM, much like what the track, women's and other commissions do?

Beasty brings it up each year that its a business AGM but it is where all the big road decisions in regards technical rules get decided with good feedback from the college of commissaries, who give the allowed or not allowed nod before a vote is taken. Unless the road commission have an AGM then surely this part should be left as is.

Or more honestly, is it accepted that if you take out the road motions you'd be hard pressed to get a quorum.

Personally to achieve both goals you'd just have the road AGM as a meeting on the day but separate from the AGM which would all of a sudden take under an hour.

wav1

Personally i'd like commission to have more powers buts its a real dammed if you and dammed if you dont story..maybe better to have delegates have their say at agm etc..you get the feedback if commission makes unpopular decisions..who do them few think they are kind of stuff..commission is active though and lots of stuff to go to agm again..a lot of the stuff re grading worked this year balancing out the fields etc..junior upgrades worked too even though i was opposed to it..theme of this thread re race cancellations is very important to commission too..working on stuff for calender next yr whereby there may be a few less events listed but the ones that are are def going to happen.hats off to carlow who have added a race in sept and also event in borris on ossory later in sept.every little helps

CramCycle

wav1 wrote: »

.there is nothing in the regulations saying you have to have an ambulance..medical cover it says and thats very.loose..d.

I actually had to look it up, I really thought an ambulance was necessary but it says first aid support in the technical regs. Don't think I'd be confident running a race without one though. They are all certified and signed off. Having a few riders rock up and say they have a first aid cert leads to having to get them to provide certs (first aid cert is two years now until it must be renewed I think). But that's me, and every organisers choice. I know the local gardai talked to were a lot happier when we mentioned having one when meeting them.

Beasty

As I've already indicated there should be a safety plan in place and if a club commits in that to ambulance cover they leave themselves (the club and it's committee members) exposed if they then run the race without cover. Same for any other safety matters covered in the plan. If they say marshals will be placed at a corner and none turn up if there's then an accident art that corner the club and relevant officers could be claimed against. You cannot just pay lip service to these safety plans as they are effectively part of the insurance "contract"

Gekko1

RobFowl wrote: »

Gekko1 wrote: »

Maybe it should be then? I recall this issue was discussed before the last CI AGM?

If you feel it should be mandatory make a submission through CI for the AGM then go to the AGM and argue for it...

No I won't waste my time on that one.Thats a typical cop out reply. I will carry on entering pre registration races like I have done for the past number of years. There are plenty to chose from in Ulster & I travel to most (for a family man) & if I do sign up & cant make it £15 lost so hardly a big deal. I might miss 2/3 a season for hardly a deal breaker.
Maybe time the cycling scene in the other provinces to ditch the happy go lucky attitude & follow suit. There is not much complicated in pre reg'in races & it doesn't have to be through the CI website either. Riders who take the chance to sign on on the day only have themselves to blame but if there is space left the more the merrier.
I can't see why the need to get this passed at an AGM anyway. Surely it is up to the clubs to enforce & maintain? Most clubs run 1/2 races a year so hardly a big ask?

sullzz

wav1 wrote: »

hats off to carlow who have added a race in sept and also event in borris on ossory later in sept.every little helps

Bad news on this one now I’m afraid .... from Facebook ....

Ossory CC Road Race CANCELLED.
Hi All, we have had to make the decision to cancel this years inaugural 'end of season road race' scheduled for the 23th September. Unfortunately there are just too many unforeseen obstacles hindering the running of this event safely so we will have to try again next year.
Thanks to all who have recently showed an interest in participating.

CramCycle

There should be a big turn out for Lucan and Carlow, I hear plenty of people talking about it. There is still a great few weeks of racing ahead. So don't get too disheartened.

buffalo

Gekko1 wrote: »

No I won't waste my time on that one.Thats a typical cop out reply...
I can't see why the need to get this passed at an AGM anyway. Surely it is up to the clubs to enforce & maintain? Most clubs run 1/2 races a year so hardly a big ask?

It's not a cop out, it's a simple request that if you care about an issue, you should do something about it instead of complaining on the internet.

If you're not interested in passing a motion at the AGM, that must mean you either don't care that much about the issue, or you trust the volunteers and clubs who run races to run them as they see fit (i.e. no pre-reg in many cases).

RobFowl

Gekko1 wrote: »

No I won't waste my time on that one.Thats a typical cop out reply.

Suppose you are correct, moaning anonymously on the internet is far more likely to achieve change...

Gekko1

RobFowl wrote: »

Gekko1 wrote: »

No I won't waste my time on that one.Thats a typical cop out reply.

Suppose you are correct, moaning anonymously on the internet is far more likely to achieve change...

It's hardly moaning. I already said I'm happy to go to keep going to pre registered races so I really don't give much of a frig what's cancelled.

CramCycle

Gekko1 wrote: »

It's hardly moaning. I already said I'm happy to go to keep going to pre registered races so I really don't give much of a frig what's cancelled.

It takes more time than people expect to put on even basic races. While pre reg suits me now, when it was first announced it really didn't. I worked nights and was on call. I would not know until midnight Friday whether I would make a race in the morning or not. I don't think it is fair of me to have a 180 degree turn about because it suits me now.

Also the 15euro is alot to some riders, I know some who pick and choose limited races because that is their budget for the month or even year.

The truth of the matter is, until CI put in a safety net for clubs on races, then organisers should be free to make this choice themselves. I know one club lost a few thousand this year, another called off an event (possibly a bit to early) because the numbers were not looking great. Those who choose for entry on the day know the risks and hope for the best.

Getting rid of prize money at A4 and possibly A3, takes away any issue of it being a club trying to make money and a limited number of moan bags, and just a rule to follow. Even alternative prizes could be limited to top 3.

Ambulances, Comms, food, petrol. Even for a short race you are looking at 750euro, less if you have like many clubs who have people who don't ask for money for the petrol or food. Is the hall you are using getting rented or donated for the day. Every race you have on the day doubles your comms costs and petrol costs. And the truth is ambulances and Comms are far cheaper than you'd expect but not cheap enough that anything under 40 riders per race (excluding prizes and a load of other costs I have not mentioned).

Then you are putting your club and your name on the line thanks to social media and a complete lack of appreciation from some riders who have never once picked up a marshal flag, giving out that they expect some sort of layout, like you would get with a 70euro Triathlon event for 15euro.

I only help out at one open race, and if possible I volunteer to marshal at others if asked (although family and work have neutered that this year), but I do help organise 20 league races a year and that is a pain in the ass, but the main benefit is that there is little to no cost risk here, not sure if I would do as much if I had to hold it to open race standards every week.

wav1

Just about sums it up

jimbobaloobob

JimmiesRustled wrote: »

Bit of a joke really. Racing in Leinster is propped up by a very small amount of clubs. It's always the same lads organising races. Theres little to no thanks for putting it on but god forbid you have a genuine reason for cancelling. Some of the comments elsewhere sayings that it's "disgraceful" that the race was called off. People need to start looking at their own clubs and what they can do to help the road scene.

I supposed cycling Ireland could take the stance and not allow clubs to just pop up all over the place, clubs of late seem to start as a leisure, branch in everything, gather a few racers but nobody wants to host races. The old clubs of the country going back all did their bit, i think at one stage it was a requirement that each club had to host a race.

RobFowl

jimbobaloobob wrote: »

I supposed cycling Ireland could take the stance and not allow clubs to just pop up all over the place, clubs of late seem to start as a leisure, branch in everything, gather a few racers but nobody wants to host races. The old clubs of the country going back all did their bit, i think at one stage it was a requirement that each club had to host a race.

Get your point but CI is about far more than racing these days. 75% of members do not have a racing licence.

jimbobaloobob

RobFowl wrote: »

Get your point but CI is about far more than racing these days. 75% of members do not have a racing licence.

I know what you mean Rob. What they should be about is bringing cyclists to the peak potential but I think that's be long lost in the accounts system when you see memberships go from a target of 2500 in year 2000 to over 20000 in recent years. Not really down to their doing either.
Back in the early 2000s every member of CI was an active racer, car driver , manager etc but sure we know it's changed but too quick to manage the format and ensure good consistent racing.

wav1

Those clubs that have x amount of active road racing cyclists should promote something.even if they find the thought daunting or overwhelming get together with other clubs in the same boat,spread the workload and for example 4 clubs get together and put on a promotion.they will find its not the huge task they envisaged at all and we all will have a better and far more sustainable calendar of events.