Running a PHEV but rarely charging it

GTE

Hello,

With a PHEV such as a Golf GTE or Prius PHEV; what mpg would I expect if I charged it to max but left it in hybrid mode and rarely charged it, for city driving?

I'm just wondering would MPG be worse than a petrol equivalent or would it still achieve somewhat close to what a standard hybrid manages.

I was talking to a taxi driver who said that his Prius is great for under 60kph driving, so im wondering how a PHEV that isn't charged regularly would get on in a similar situation.

I'm in the city now, I can't charge a PHEV at my residence but I could at work, once or twice a week, to give a hypothetical.

My diesel has gone from 55 to 35 mpg on regular sub 60kph Dublin runs. So I'm wondering what a PHEV could give me in that situation, vs a standard hybrid.

Thanks!

Edit: I'd be looking at 2015ish Golf GTE or A3 Etron, at least in this example.

unkel

PHEV that you never charge is the same as a regular hybrid, but slightly heavier. Both are far better than any normal petrol car, even far better than a normal diesel car in economy for city driving, because of the regen

But the whole point about paying thousands extra for a PHEV over a hybrid is that you plan to plug it in all the time!

What is your driving pattern? How far is your commute and what other driving do you do, any long distances?

GTE

unkel wrote: »

PHEV that you never charge is the same as a regular hybrid, but slightly heavier. Both are far better than any normal petrol car, even far better than a normal diesel car in economy for city driving, because of the regen

But the whole point about paying thousands extra for a PHEV over a hybrid is that you plan to plug it in all the time!

What is your driving pattern? How far is your commute and what other driving do you do, any long distances?

Thanks for the reply.

I'm quite sure I can sell my current car and get a GTE with that money from the UK.

My new driving pattern will be 10km round trip commutes to work four days a week with two 40km round trip runs. Anything extra will be a combination of the above.

I can't charge at my apartment, yet anyway. So I'm wondering about worst case scenario.

If a GTE or A3 Etron can give me better than my
A4 diesel even when I can't charge it, and I'm able to do it with out spending anything on top of what I get when the A4 is sold, then I'd be saving money immediately on fuel.

Atlantic Dawn

Your mileage is so low I would think long and hard at the fuel savings v's the much larger depreciation costs.

GTE

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Your mileage is so low I would think long and hard at the fuel savings v's the much larger depreciation costs.

Even when dealing with used 2014/2015 models?
I should've made that clearer in my post; t'would be used market stuff.

unkel

If you can charge a few times a week at work, that would be enough for your driving needs even if you got a full EV!

There's currently a 152 eGolf for sale privately asking price under EUR16k

GTE

unkel wrote: »

If you can charge a few times a week at work, that would be enough for your driving needs even if you got a full EV!

There's currently a 152 eGolf for sale privately asking price under EUR16k

A full EV is tempting but for this thread, I am working off a worst case scenario of no charging points often enough to keep an EV going.

listermint

Can you charge at home ? Or is that just not possible

GTE

listermint wrote: »

Can you charge at home ? Or is that just not possible

Not as it stands and for this thread, I'm assuming that it's not going to be an option but could be something I do the odd time when visiting my family home or going shopping.

Its simply a case of PHEV economy with rare charging (this essentially means none).

If the PHEV is realistically economical compared to a hybrid, then it leaves my option open for regular charging happening in the future by way of a change of situation at work or home.

Soarer

Why not get a regular hybrid (cheap) now, and if your charging circumstances change in the future, then look at PHEV or EV?

GTE

Soarer wrote: »

Why not get a regular hybrid (cheap) now, and if your charging circumstances change in the future, then look at PHEV or EV?

For this thread, I'm looking at the PHEV.

biko

The point of getting a PHEV is to be able to plug it in.

If you can charge at work, or in the locality after work, then it's still a good idea I think.

GTE

biko wrote: »

The point of getting a PHEV is to be able to plug it in.

If you can charge at work, or in the locality after work, then it's still a good idea I think.

I appreciate that, regarding what the point of them is.

I'm just looking for insights from PHEV owners who have had experience with missing charges, specifically city/suburb driving, so I can get a worst case base line for economy.

I'm interested in how close it would get to a regular hybrid as my current diesel baseline looks to be quite poor, understandably.

Thanks

unkel

bbk wrote: »

If the PHEV is realistically economical compared to a hybrid

It isn't if you don't plug it in. I know you are set on a PHEV but it makes no sense at all:

PHEV is more expensive to buy than Hybrid
PHEV is less economical to drive than Hybrid

Worst of both worlds

Exception could be to bring in a popular tax compliance ex-lease PHEV from the UK (like Mitsubishi Outlander / BMW 330e), they will have already suffered most of their depreciation and have a higher value over here. You could drive one for a year or so with very little cost

Soarer

bbk wrote: »

For this thread, I'm looking at the PHEV.

Tell us what you want us to say, and we'll say it.

GTE

unkel wrote: »

It isn't if you don't plug it in. I know you are set on a PHEV but it makes no sense at all:

PHEV is more expensive to buy than Hybrid
PHEV is less economical to drive than Hybrid

Worst of both worlds

Exception could be to bring in a popular tax compliance ex-lease PHEV from the UK (like Mitsubishi Outlander / BMW 330e), they will have already suffered most of their depreciation and have a higher value over here. You could drive one for a year or so with very little cost

You are misunderstanding me completely, apologies if I'm not being explicit enough. I'm not set on anything, I'm just looking to establish figures and experiences from people with PHEVs who have missed charges or have been unable to charge for a while.

UK sourced vehicles like you mention is indeed the plan, for any vehicle I get in the event I replace the diesel. Its what I have done with the current car.

GTE

Soarer wrote: »

Tell us what you want us to say, and we'll say it.

I'm not too sure how that would be of any use.

GTE

An interesting thread here about the concept

https://www.speakev.com/threads/running-the-phev-without-charging-regularly.12861/

unkel

bbk wrote: »

I'm just looking to establish figures and experiences from people with PHEVs who have missed charges or have been unable to charge for a while.

Why look for owners experiences? It's simple physics.

If you do not charge your PHEV, it will use more petrol than a similar hybrid. As it carries around dead weight in the form of a battery that is a lot bigger than the one in the hybrid

A PHEV is also substantially more expensive to buy than a similar hybrid

unkel

bbk wrote: »

I'm not too sure how that would be of any use.

I think you'll find Soarer was being sarcastic

In that you only want us to tell you that yeah a PHEV will be your best option. It's not.

GTE

unkel wrote: »

I think you'll find Soarer was being sarcastic

In that you only want us to tell you that yeah a PHEV will be your best option. It's not.

No it is essentially just a case of getting some mpg figures so then works in maths out that's all.

grange girl

I have a GTE but can plug in so do my city driving on electric. Had it in Uk on holidays rarely plugging in, mostly motorway and small roads driving, averaging 50+ mpg. Haven't a clue about mpg for city driving without plugging in.
I think that a non plug in hybrid would make more sense for city driving, especially if you can't plug in. If you don't have a real reason for carrying around two energy sources, why would you?
Loads of discussion on speakev gte forum.

biko

Here is a thread on running an Outlander PHEV on petrol only
http://www.myoutlanderphev.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3442

Soarer

bbk wrote: »

No it is essentially just a case of getting some mpg figures so then works in maths out that's all.

In order of mpg (ascending)...
PHEV (not plugging in)
Hybrid
PHEV (plugging in)
EV

I can make up some mpg figures to confirm the above if required, or you can listen to the users on here. They'll/We'll give you the best option for your needs if you give us details of your daily/weekly/monthly mileage.

But it reads that you've your mind set on a PHEV, and you're looking for the figures to justify same.
If you want a PHEV, get one.
If you want the best option for your lifestyle, we'll tell you.

zilog_jones

I bought a 2012 Prius Plug-in a couple of years ago. When I was looking, it was no more expensive than a standard Prius of similar age and spec (in the UK, as they never sold it here). It's not worse on fuel than a standard Prius when never charged - in fact it actually did better in the US EPA fuel economy tests, possibly due to greater headroom for regen. The weight difference doesn't matter really (mine also lost the spare wheel due to lack of space).

I can't say the same for the VAG PHEVs, though they have no non-plugin hybrid equivalents anyway.

unkel

zilog_jones wrote: »

It's not worse on fuel than a standard Prius when never charged - in fact it actually did better in the US EPA fuel economy tests

They did the same (50MPG US on the combined cycle). And that was in the EPA test which includes highway driving, where the extra weight doesn't matter. And possibly more scope for regen cycling

In city driving the PHEV will consume more petrol. And there is no better use of regen as any charge to the battery should be used up straight away for driving

Now unless your commute starts on the top of a hill, then the PHEV might actually have same or even better consumption than hybrid

But not in city only driving...

zilog_jones

The EPA figures have been revised for 2011-2016 vehicles, so the Gen 3 Prius is now 48 MPG combined - but I'm not sure the Plug-in was revised in the same way.

Anyway, it's a 41 kg difference in kerb weight - not much, really. 15" vs. 17" wheels probably make a bigger difference.

unkel

Thanks for the updated stats. Point remains though a hybrid will use less petrol in city only driving than a PHEV, even if the latter is only 40kg heavier (3% or so)

The small weight difference does surprise me though. What are the kWh of the packs? I did notice you saying they got rid of the spare wheel for the PHEV. Maybe there were other measures to reduce weight?

listermint

I'm still perplexed why you'd want to buy one at all and not plug it into your house.

zilog_jones

unkel wrote: »

The small weight difference does surprise me though. What are the kWh of the packs? I did notice you saying they got rid of the spare wheel for the PHEV. Maybe there were other measures to reduce weight?

It's 1.3 kWh Ni-MH 42 kg in the standard gen 3, vs. 4.4 kWh Li-ion 80 kg in the Plug-in. I guess the energy density is better with Li-ion. I think the total weight increase is more like 55 kg, according to this: https://pressroom.toyota.com/releases/toyota+introduces+2012+prius+plug-in+hybrid.htm

To fit in the larger battery and charging equipment, the spare wheel well and storage tray under the boot floor are gone - there's a narrow deep compartment just behind the boot sill instead (big enough for storing charging cables). I think officially it loses 5 litres of boot space, or something like that. No other changes that I'm aware of, though they stuck to 15" wheels for emissions/efficiency/chape tax (equivalent spec standard Prius would have 17"s).

With the current generation PHV, to fit in the much larger (120kg? I forget) 8.8 kWh battery within platform limitations, they had to do various silly things like remove the rear centre seat, significantly reduce boot space, lengthen the car, change the rear hatch to carbon fibre, etc.

unkel

zilog_jones wrote: »

4.4 kWh Li-ion 80 kg in the Plug-in.

That's tiny! A quick google suggests that it has about 2.8kWh usable. If it were as efficient as an Ioniq (which it isn't) that means a real life range of 20km.

Edit: I see the EPA range on electric is 18km, so close enough to Ioniq!

What's the most you ever got out of yours on electric only?

zilog_jones

It's hard to measure unless I'm going out of my way to see how far I can go, resetting trip counters, etc. I've tried a few times, then forgot to record when the ICE kicks in...

I can reliably get 16-17 km, and that's in Cork city which is all hills and narrow streets (i.e. having to stop to let cars pass). My commute is shorter than that, so it suits me fine.

Based on the electricity I'm using to charge it (so including charging loss), I'm getting around 16 kWh/100km in EV mode (note: EV mode speed limit is 85 km/h). And overall I'm doing 3.48 l/100km.

GTE

Soarer wrote: »

I can make up some mpg figures to confirm the above if required, or you can listen to the users on here. They'll/We'll give you the best option for your needs if you give us details of your daily/weekly/monthly mileage.

But it reads that you've your mind set on a PHEV, and you're looking for the figures to justify same.
If you want a PHEV, get one.
If you want the best option for your lifestyle, we'll tell you.

I never wanted made up MPG figures or for anyone here to make a judgement on what's the best call for me. There are too many variables for someone who is not me to consider. The quoted figures in the linked threads will prove to be useful when I work the maths, so thanks to those users for them.

Im sorry the posts read in the way they do for you; it's resulted in perpetuating dialogue on something useless and incorrect. I feel what I've asked for is clear but I'm also left feeling that you are quite fixed on discussing something which I established was a misunderstanding quite a while ago, so I'll leave it at that.

GTE

"In city driving the PHEV will consume more petrol. And there is no better use of regen as any charge to the battery should be used up straight away for driving"

That's the key factor. I'd not be in a position to replace a new car at the drop of a hat so tracking the fuel cost differences over significant lengths of time would be interesting there; that vs the differential in purchase cost.

That said, the potential options I'd been investigating for the installation of charging points has gone from the medium term to long term and never, in some cases. It makes the concept of a PHEV and suffering short/medium term low economy less of an option.

GTE

zilog_jones wrote: »

It's hard to measure unless I'm going out of my way to see how far I can go, resetting trip counters, etc. I've tried a few times, then forgot to record when the ICE kicks in...

I can reliably get 16-17 km, and that's in Cork city which is all hills and narrow streets (i.e. having to stop to let cars pass). My commute is shorter than that, so it suits me fine.

Based on the electricity I'm using to charge it (so including charging loss), I'm getting around 16 kWh/100km in EV mode (note: EV mode speed limit is 85 km/h). And overall I'm doing 3.48 l/100km.

Thanks for the info. Is the distance used in the overall figure inclusive of the EV kms?

zilog_jones

Yes, it's based on the total distance driven between fill-ups. Somewhere around 35% of that is EV mode driving.

Casati

I might be the only one but I’m struggling to understand why the OP wouldn’t buy a PHEV GTE or A3 (I’d add the 330e to the list but he might not like BMW’s

Each of these cars will be more economical than the equivalent petrol - eg Golf GTI, will have much lower vrt importing, and lower motor tax plus they are both more economical than the petrols.

Telling the OP to buy a hybrid is probably not helpful as he can’t get a hybrid VW or Audi, indeed the options when looking at hybrids are extremely limited unless you want a Toyota or Lexus, or maybe an Ioniq or something else sold in small numbers or not suitable eg Hybrid Mercedes diesel.

biko

listermint wrote: »

I'm still perplexed why you'd want to buy one at all and not plug it into your house.

If you do low enough mileage a couple charges a week at some point on way home from work could be enough to keep it topped up.
My own commute is less than 15 kms per day and an Outlander can do 40+ kms on a single battery charge.