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R roads with 100km/h limit

  • 23-08-2018 12:48pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 13,372 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    We were down in Cork recently and I was surprised at how many of the R roads have a 100km/h limit - they were very wide for Regional roads as well, like secondary N roads (only with a worse surface generally).

    I haven't seen this in any other county - Cork CoCo do seem fond of a custom limit, they have 120s on the N22 and the N25 as well.

    (in contrast, some of the L roads around West Cork are barely passable in a normal car - very narrow, mix of grass and gravel, insane gradients!)

    [EDIT - maybe move to "Roads"]


Comments

  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,341 D Trent


    loyatemu wrote: »
    We were down in Cork recently and I was surprised at how many of the R roads have a 100km/h limit - they were very wide for Regional roads as well, like secondary N roads (only with a worse surface generally).

    I haven't seen this in any other county - Cork CoCo do seem fond of a custom limit, they have 120s on the N22 and the N25 as well.

    (in contrast, some of the L roads around West Cork are barely passable in a normal car - very narrow, mix of grass and gravel, insane gradients!)

    [EDIT - maybe move to "Roads"]

    The road from N22 at Loo Bridge to Kenmare-R569 is a 100km/h limit also- it's quite a good road too.


  • Registered Users Posts: 4,047 ✭✭✭ AugustusMinimus


    If the road is capable of a higher limit, then that is the limit it should have.

    Road designations are just that. It’s good that Cork Co Co reviews the limits of regional roads and further to that, good to see TII doing a review of National Secondaries at the moment.


  • Registered Users Posts: 7,464 ✭✭✭ munchkin_utd


    If the road is capable of a higher limit, then that is the limit it should have.

    Road designations are just that. It’s good that Cork Co Co reviews the limits of regional roads and further to that, good to see TII doing a review of National Secondaries at the moment.
    are they simply reviewing speed limits or the amount of unjustifiable national secondary roads which exist currently?


  • Registered Users Posts: 233 ✭✭ AAAAAAAAA


    there's a short section of R772 north of gorey with a speed limit of 100kmh, was previously the N11


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭ plodder


    Is this a recent thing? I thought it made a lot of sense that N roads were generally 100km/h and R roads 80 km/h. I know in Germany that type of distinction exists consistently to the extent that speed limit signs are not generally needed. You automatically know what the limit is based on the type of road you are on with only the exceptions needing signs.


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  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    are they simply reviewing speed limits or the amount of unjustifiable national secondary roads which exist currently?
    Reviewing speed limits. As a general rule, roads with pavement width < 6.5m are down to 80km/h now. Which is quite a lot of the national secondary network


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,364 ✭✭✭✭ road_high


    A lot of the ex National primary routes like the ex N9 and N8 have sections which are 100 km/h and perfectly acceptable and able for this limit particularly sections that had been realigned back in the day.


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭ plodder


    road_high wrote: »
    A lot of the ex National primary routes like the ex N9 and N8 have sections which are 100 km/h and perfectly acceptable and able for this limit particularly sections that had been realigned back in the day.
    So, why didn't those roads stay as National primary (or secondary even) routes?


  • Moderators, Entertainment Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 13,234 Mod ✭✭✭✭ marno21


    plodder wrote: »
    So, why didn't those roads stay as National primary (or secondary even) routes?
    The old N8 and N9 were detrunked as the M8 and M9 were opened. The old N8 is now the R639 and the old N9 is now the R448


  • Registered Users Posts: 2,084 ✭✭✭ MBSnr


    plodder wrote: »
    So, why didn't those roads stay as National primary (or secondary even) routes?

    Funding perhaps. Don't the NRA have to pay for the up keep of N roads, whereas the county councils pay for the up keep of R roads?


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  • Registered Users Posts: 13,372 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    the roads I mentioned in Cork were never N roads, though maybe they were T roads under the old system - they're very wide for R roads.

    The limits in France recently changed and all single carriageway roads are now 80km/h unless signed (lower only I think). I'm not sure about signing R roads higher, while it may be possible to maintain 100km/h on some of them that is not the only consideration; they still have cyclists, walkers, junctions, house and field accesses etc in much higher numbers and even the wide ones I mentioned have no hard shoulders. There's something to be said for consistency as well.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,364 ✭✭✭✭ road_high


    plodder wrote: »
    So, why didn't those roads stay as National primary (or secondary even) routes?

    Parts df some did in fact become National secondary's where it made sense to do so i.e. part of the old N8 became the N77 from Kilkenny to Portlaoise


  • Registered Users Posts: 6,699 ✭✭✭ plodder


    MBSnr wrote: »
    Funding perhaps. Don't the NRA have to pay for the up keep of N roads, whereas the county councils pay for the up keep of R roads?
    That's what I heard, but it's not a very good reason if true. All the expense and visual intrusiveness of signage should be primarily for the public benefit of road users, not as a way of delineating responsibilities between different arms of government.
    loyatemu wrote:
    The limits in France recently changed and all single carriageway roads are now 80km/h unless signed (lower only I think). I'm not sure about signing R roads higher, while it may be possible to maintain 100km/h on some of them that is not the only consideration; they still have cyclists, walkers, junctions, house and field accesses etc in much higher numbers and even the wide ones I mentioned have no hard shoulders. There's something to be said for consistency as well.
    That's exactly what I am talking about.


  • Registered Users Posts: 13,372 ✭✭✭✭ loyatemu


    the motorways replaced the National Primaries they bypassed - the M7 is the N7. The old single carriageway N7 is now a regional road for local traffic (or anyone who can't or won't use the motorway, which is a very small amount of traffic).


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭ sdanseo


    There is a comprehensive guideline which sets out recommended speed limits for R roads (with a particular focus on redsignated N-roads after the construction of motorways).

    Some coco's - Meath for example - simply ignore it. Unfortunately councils can't be prosecuted for ignorance.


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,889 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    plodder wrote: »
    Is this a recent thing? I thought it made a lot of sense that N roads were generally 100km/h and R roads 80 km/h. I know in Germany that type of distinction exists consistently to the extent that speed limit signs are not generally needed. You automatically know what the limit is based on the type of road you are on with only the exceptions needing signs.
    Ireland used to have a national speed limit too but it was a fixed 60mph, regardless of road type. The UK has a varying NSL, 60mph on any single carriageway, 70 on any dual unless otherwise stated. Germany also has a similar concept, any single carriageway outside a built up area is 100km/h on a single carriageway and no fixed limit on any dual unless otherwise stated (not just Autobahnen by the way...there are a few non Autobahn dual carriageways in Germany with no speed limit). I thought the abolition of NSL was a mistake in Ireland. It created many silly low limits. I'm on holiday in Sweden right now and they also seem to have no concept of NSL. Every road gets a specific limit and many are obviously way too low. Swedes pretty much seem to constantly drive above the posted limits and it's because they are often ludicrously low.


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭ sdanseo


    murphaph wrote: »
    Swedes pretty much seem to constantly drive above the posted limits and it's because they are often ludicrously low.

    The Danes are the same. I was there recently on business and they all just memorise the point at which a money fine becomes a fine with points, and just driver at that speed instead (about 15% over the limit).


  • Registered Users Posts: 18,889 ✭✭✭✭ murphaph


    sdanseo wrote: »
    The Danes are the same. I was there recently on business and they all just memorise the point at which a money fine becomes a fine with points, and just driver at that speed instead (about 15% over the limit).
    Yeah it was the very same there (we live in Berlin so took the Rostock-Gedser ferry and drove up into Sweden via the Øresund bridge, where incidentally we had our passports checked despite Sweden being in Schengen).


  • Registered Users Posts: 8,781 ✭✭✭ Carawaystick


    loyatemu wrote: »

    The limits in France recently changed and all single carriageway roads are now 80km/h unless signed (lower only I think).
    They can be signed higher also, but I only saw some S3 as 110 or 90 in July ( the law came in on 1st July.
    It even applies to single cariageway motorways, where 80 is definitely too slow
    loyatemu wrote: »
    I'm not sure about signing R roads higher, while it may be possible to maintain 100km/h on some of them that is not the only consideration; they still have cyclists, walkers, junctions, house and field accesses etc in much higher numbers and even the wide ones I mentioned have no hard shoulders. There's something to be said for consistency as well.
    the R132 (old N1) south from Dundalk has shoulders and a hundred limit, as does the road out to Greenore from Dundalk, despite never being a N


  • Registered Users Posts: 9,183 ✭✭✭ sdanseo


    They can be signed higher also, but I only saw some S3 as 110 or 90 in July ( the law came in on 1st July.
    It even applies to single cariageway motorways, where 80 is definitely too slow


    the R132 (old N1) south from Dundalk has shoulders and a hundred limit, as does the road out to Greenore from Dundalk, despite never being a N

    http://www.dttas.ie/sites/default/files/upload/general/Guide_Speed_Limits_Mar_2015.pdf
    This is the document I mentioned above. Of note:
    3.3.2 Regional and Local Roads
    For Regional and Local roads Local Authorities shall, in accordance with these
    Guidelines, conduct a review of all speed limits (default and Special Speed Limits) at
    least every 5 years. This review shall seek to ensure that limits are appropriate and
    shall:
     Consist of an updated inventory of speed limit signs and zones on MapRoad,
     Confirm the correctness of existing speed limit bye-laws and signs,
     Identify and implement 100 km/h speed limits on those sections of rural road that
    are suitable,
     Implement 80 km/h on those sections of rural roads that are suitable
    (Section 7.2.2)
    These roads are wide two-lane roads with hard shoulders and have an overall minimum
    paved width of 8m, have grass verges and are characterised as being ‘improved’. For these
    roads the appropriate speed limit should normally be 100 km/h. These sections of road
    should also meet the criteria for 100 km/h in section 7.2.2.1. Where the criteria for a Speed
    Limit of 100 km/h are not met a Speed Limit of 80 km/h should apply

    And of course, the worst offenders, the "reclassifieds"
    For high standard roads where the classification has changed such as from National to
    Regional with the result that the default speed limit has changed, the criteria as set out in
    section 7.2.2.1 shall apply. Such a change should be managed in advance of the change in
    classification to ensure that speed limits continue to be appropriate and consistent.
    An example of where a change of classification has occurred is on by-passed National Roads
    which have been re-classified in relation to the new major interurban network. This has
    created significant lengths of former National Roads (now Regional or Local Roads) which
    have reduced default speed limits of 80km/h.
    Where this occurs consideration needs to be given in advance as to whether the appropriate
    speed limit should be 80 km/h or 100 km/h.
    Where these roads have been constructed to a high standard a speed limit of 100 km/h
    should apply. Thus, if 100 km/h is the appropriate speed limit, a Special Speed Limit should
    be advanced before a change in classification occurs so that the Special Speed Limit
    takes effect as soon as possible after a change in classification.

    Almost all IGNORED for the sake of cash collection.

    Great local governance we have. And if anyone dares to ask for an explanation, they just throw out the old "speed kills" phrase. Sure then why don't we all cycle.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 7,702 ✭✭✭ BrianD3




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