Should Irish farmers use anaerobic digesters?

Rechuchote

https://www.nationalgeographic.com/people-and-culture/food/the-plate/2014/10/22/harnessing-the-potential-of-a-nations-leftover-food-2/

“An anaerobic digester simply provides an environment for nature to do its work – the manure and food waste we put into the digester are broken down by microorganisms, and the process produces the biogas we use to generate electricity,” explains Randy Jordan, dairy farmer at Jordan Dairy Farm located in Rutland, Massachusetts. “In addition to electricity, the process leaves behind an odorless fertilizer which we apply to our fields to help grow more food.”

kevthegaff

They need to be subsidised before commercial farms consider them.

Rechuchote

Ah, always the deontas…

Mooooo

Return on investment isn't there. There's a fella around these parts works on them in UK and Europe I think but they have feed in tariffs which shorten the payback period

croot

Rechuchote wrote: »

Ah, always the deontas…

Silly statement. Even multinationals get grants for setting up new infrastructure projects. How much has Apple, HP and Intel creamed off over the years to name but a few. Farmers couldn’t fund it out of their own pocket and with no return at the end. I don’t think you can even get a license to connect to the grid yet because the government has no proper plans for renewables.

Never wrestle with pigs

No good. As if land prices and rent and fodder shortages weren't bad enough with out these also competing for grub.

alps

Mooooo wrote: »

Return on investment isn't there. There's a fella around these parts works on them in UK and Europe I think but they have feed in tariffs which shorten the payback period

Plus all year round housed cows which would be necessary. Also a plentiful source of fodder (grass or maize) required, and I'm sure you know the answer to plentiful supply in these parts.

It would be interesting to know how the suppliers of fodder to digesters in Europe are faring out with the Summer drought. Are they contracted to supply a specific tonnage, and what happens if they can't then supply.

I wonder if any of the trainloads of forage leaving Dwags area of France are destined for digesters?

_Brian

Wound the waste companies not be able to utilise these for all that brown waste ??

evolving_doors

_Brian wrote: »

Wound the waste companies not be able to utilise these for all that brown waste ??

What happens the brown waste?

cute geoge

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

No good. As if land prices and rent and fodder shortages weren't bad enough with out these also competing for grub.

I have no clue how they work but is it only grass or maize you need to use in them .A stupid question would rushes be any use for powering a digester

Rechuchote

alps wrote: »

Plus all year round housed cows

Pigs?

alps

Rechuchote wrote: »

Pigs?

Yes, could be...only been to dairy farm one's I'm afraid.

freedominacup

Rechuchote wrote: »

Pigs?

One of the largest pig farms in the country is a short distance from me. They have recently converted all heating to gas but there's no sign of a digester yet. The discussions have certainly been had I understand but despite very deep corporate pockets associated with this farm after 10 plus years of evaluating the project no move as yet. Tells you something about viability I think.

Conflats

evolving_doors wrote:

What happens the brown waste?

Composted and sold as soil conditioner, I use it and it's getting to a stage now I am considering not getting it anymore for the pure crap people are throwing in there brown bins weather commercial or domestic. I have had plastic forks, glass, ketchup packets etc in it and while I plough it down I am not happy with the level of litter in it. Spoke to supplier (part owner of the waste company) and he said it's difficult to get people to understand how to segregate their waste esp in commercial outlets where people don't care.

Back to the digesters, feed in tariffs are too low in Ireland for renewables as the esb control the distribution network and another esb company generates their own electricity... why would a semi state body want to encourage locally generated power where possible.

A nice proportion of maize is been grown in the republic for digesters in northern Ireland

Rechuchote

freedominacup wrote: »

One of the largest pig farms in the country is a short distance from me. They have recently converted all heating to gas but there's no sign of a digestive yet. The discussions have certainly been had I understand but despite very deep corporate pockets associated with this farm after 10 plus years of evaluating the project no move as yet. Tells you something about viability I think.

Or about fashion. People do what their buddies do. You'll see that if you take a train Galway-to-Dublin then one Dublin-to-Sligo - one one route there are lots of solar panels (often grouped near each other); on the other hardly any.

Dinzee Conlee

Rechuchote wrote: »

Or about fashion. People do what their buddies do. You'll see that if you take a train Galway-to-Dublin then one Dublin-to-Sligo - one one route there are lots of solar panels (often grouped near each other); on the other hardly any.

Surely it comes down to what the ESB will pay for generated electricity? And at present, as far as I understand - they won’t pay for it all? Open to correction on this though...

So why would you create a product (electricity) you can’t sell?

Rechuchote

Dinzee Conlee wrote: »

Surely it comes down to what the ESB will pay for generated electricity? And at present, as far as I understand - they won’t pay for it all? Open to correction on this though...

So why would you create a product (electricity) you can’t sell?

You can use it, but.

Waaaaayyy back in the day I heard about a whiskey distillery that used peat smoke and peat fires in their whiskey processing, and grew delicious tomatoes in turf mould in greenhouses heated by the same, and the carbon dioxide did something or other too. All the processes fed into each other and all fed into the profit.

Dinzee Conlee

Rechuchote wrote: »

You can use it, but.

Waaaaayyy back in the day I heard about a whiskey distillery that used peat smoke and peat fires in their whiskey processing, and grew delicious tomatoes in turf mould in greenhouses heated by the same, and the carbon dioxide did something or other too. All the processes fed into each other and all fed into the profit.

That’s not really the way the world is going though...

People / companies specialise now...

But I don’t see why a farmer would want to take on a whole load of risk, putting up a digestor, for unknown returns - when he can as easily buy the electricity...

ganmo

A solar farm got refused plannin permission in Waterford this week, this country doesn’t want non semi state power generation

Burning Tires

Never wrestle with pigs wrote: »

No good. As if land prices and rent and fodder shortages weren't bad enough with out these also competing for grub.

I saw this argument discussed recently, in relation to the UK. One if the facts mentioned was that 12% to 15% productive land severly under utilised or fallow. And there is more land used for golf courses than used for digester.

It still doesnt make a difference in Ireland anyway, its just not viable.

Rechuchote

ganmo wrote: »

A solar farm got refused plannin permission in Waterford this week, this country doesn’t want non semi state power generation

:eek:

Kevin Finnerty

Locals not happy with local plans for one of these
https://avondhupress.ie/ballyhooly-residents-will-fight-to-the-bitter-end/
Are they really that smelly?

ganmo

Kevin Finnerty wrote: »

Locals not happy with local plans for one of these
https://avondhupress.ie/ballyhooly-residents-will-fight-to-the-bitter-end/
Are they really that smelly?

Nimbyism at its finest

Waffletraktor

Kevin Finnerty wrote: »

Locals not happy with local plans for one of these
https://avondhupress.ie/ballyhooly-residents-will-fight-to-the-bitter-end/
Are they really that smelly?

The only smelly ones are food waste the rest no worse than an average stock farm.

Kevin Finnerty

Waffletraktor wrote: »

The only smelly ones are food waste the rest no worse than an average stock farm.

Well they should be used to it so. Plenty of piggeries in the vicinity.

blue5000

Kevin Finnerty wrote: »

Locals not happy with local plans for one of these
https://avondhupress.ie/ballyhooly-residents-will-fight-to-the-bitter-end/
Are they really that smelly?

They smell bad when they go wrong, think rotten egg smell, on a big scale:eek:

No gov. incentive here......... yet, but with a stroke of a pen after a bit of lobbying that could change.

Rechuchote

ganmo wrote: »

A solar farm got refused plannin permission in Waterford this week, this country doesn’t want non semi state power generation

Without reading what the grounds were for the refusal, this is a bit of a leap of logic!

ganmo

Rechuchote wrote: »

Without reading what the grounds were for the refusal, this is a bit of a leap of logic!

From memory the main reasons were no guidelines from central gov and they didn’t want to be the first

Who2

With the advancement of pv panels is it not a far more practical approach with loads of sheds lying around the country set at 15’ they are ideally suited to provide adequate area for lads to generate a substantial percentage of the country’s power needs. The thing is there will be no big kill financially for anyone person or group bar the manufacturers so this won’t be pushed.

Burning Tires

blue5000 wrote: »

They smell bad when they go wrong, think rotten egg smell, on a big scale:eek:

No gov. incentive here......... yet, but with a stroke of a pen after a bit of lobbying that could change.

Been on few of then in England in the last year or 2, working with stainless steel engineers. The agri feed ones smell no more than the average farm yard. I would actually think they smell less as the smells are contained.
The food waste ones do smell a bit alright tho. Probably more to do with the open air storage areas than the actual digester.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Who2 wrote: »

With the advancement of pv panels is it not a far more practical approach with loads of sheds lying around the country set at 15’ they are ideally suited to provide adequate area for lads to generate a substantial percentage of the country’s power needs. The thing is there will be no big kill financially for anyone person or group bar the manufacturers so this won’t be pushed.

It isn't just a case of plugging them in and away you go. The network can only handle a certain load and the production can be easily predicted and managed from the power stations and matched up with expected peaks and troughs in demand.



Atm, we have to keep conventional suppliers of power like coal and oil fired stations on alert to be able to start them before the demand/supply begins and shut them down as demand/supply decreases with the current renewables being dependent on the prevailing weather conditions.


Micro generation will add a whole lot more complexity into the system and I doubt the system could cope with the surges in supply/demand right now. Smart metering would be a big help in being able to manage the backups correctly to minimise a wholesale breakdown of the transmission system.

Who2

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

It isn't just a case of plugging them in and away you go. The network can only handle a certain load and the production can be easily predicted and managed from the power stations and matched up with expected peaks and troughs in demand.



Atm, we have to keep conventional suppliers of power like coal and oil fired stations on alert to be able to start them before the demand/supply begins and shut them down as demand/supply decreases with the current renewables being dependent on the prevailing weather conditions.


Micro generation will add a whole lot more complexity into the system and I doubt the system could cope with the surges in supply/demand right now. Smart metering would be a big help in being able to manage the backups correctly to minimise a wholesale breakdown of the transmission system.

Battery storage is now seen as a viable option. Hooked up and organized properly it is an alternative to setting up a digester that takes feeding. Fair enough a smaller scale one for using up waste but actually producing crops to create power is a joke. If the power it takes to grow the crops, transport and process is all accounted for is it not just a big merry go round to keep everyone busy thinking they are on a winner. Whereas they could have power being created out of daylight from something that takes very little maintenance or effort for anyone.

Buford T. Justice XIX

Who2 wrote: »

Battery storage is now seen as a viable option. Hooked up and organized properly it is an alternative to setting up a digester that takes feeding. Fair enough a smaller scale one for using up waste but actually producing crops to create power is a joke. If the power it takes to grow the crops, transport and process is all accounted for is it not just a big merry go round to keep everyone busy thinking they are on a winner. Whereas they could have power being created out of daylight from something that takes very little maintenance or effort for anyone.

Yeah, battery storage would be a game changer once it gets to the being cost effective stage but we're a bit away from that yet, especially now that Elon Musk seems to having a bit of an episode atm.

Who2

Buford T. Justice V wrote: »

Yeah, battery storage would be a game changer once it gets to the being cost effective stage but we're a bit away from that yet, especially now that Elon Musk seems to having a bit of an episode atm.

That’s only a glitch. He must be reasonably confident trying to buy back the shares.

99nsr125

Who2 wrote: »

Battery storage is now seen as a viable option. Hooked up and organized properly it is an alternative to setting up a digester that takes feeding. Fair enough a smaller scale one for using up waste but actually producing crops to create power is a joke. If the power it takes to grow the crops, transport and process is all accounted for is it not just a big merry go round to keep everyone busy thinking they are on a winner. Whereas they could have power being created out of daylight from something that takes very little maintenance or effort for anyone.

Ah now batteries require minerals to be mined out of the ground like everything else, have limits and disposal issues

A digester creates methane the basic feedstock for every modern good

Methane can be stored indefinitely and fed into the heat/power grid already established

The future is Nuclear and Geothermal for base load, solar and wind for above base load and methane for everything else

ganmo

99nsr125 wrote: »

Ah now batteries require minerals to be mined out of the ground like everything else, have limits and disposal issues

A digester creates methane the basic feedstock for every modern good

Methane can be stored indefinitely and fed into the heat/power grid already established

The future is Nuclear and Geothermal for base load, solar and wind for above base load and methane for everything else

I think you’ll find nuclear fuel also needs to be mined and refined.

yosemitesam1

Who2 wrote: »

Battery storage is now seen as a viable option. Hooked up and organized properly it is an alternative to setting up a digester that takes feeding. Fair enough a smaller scale one for using up waste but actually producing crops to create power is a joke. If the power it takes to grow the crops, transport and process is all accounted for is it not just a big merry go round to keep everyone busy thinking they are on a winner. Whereas they could have power being created out of daylight from something that takes very little maintenance or effort for anyone.

Wonder what sort of energy could be stored if you were to run a pump sending water up a hill to a lagoon to be released as you need it

ganmo

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Wonder what sort of energy could be stored if you were to run a pump sending water up a hill to a lagoon to be released as you need it

Height of the hill in meters x 9.81(gravity) x volume in liters = joules

vincenzolorenzo

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Wonder what sort of energy could be stored if you were to run a pump sending water up a hill to a lagoon to be released as you need it

We already have this system in Turlough Hill. Its pumped up at night and kept for times of high demand

blue5000

ganmo wrote: »

Height of the hill in meters x 9.81(gravity) x volume in liters = joules

Thanks ganmo, Jeezus, you're no ordinary eejit:pac: Would friction with the pipe have to be accounted for?

ganmo

blue5000 wrote: »

Thanks ganmo, Jeezus, you're no ordinary eejit:pac: Would friction with the pipe have to be accounted for?

Ya that would hive you the abasoloute max. Generator efficiency and fluid dynamics would reduce it...but i don’t know much about them

Who2

ganmo wrote: »

Ya that would hive you the abasoloute max. Generator efficiency and fluid dynamics would reduce it...but i don’t know much about them

I’ve seen conical pipes over a good distance used to create extra pressure.

Mooooo

Digesters in Holland are going bankrupt apparently. Getting rid of the digestate is a big cost.

Lu Tze

Who2 wrote: »

I’ve seen conical pipes over a good distance used to create extra pressure.

They create greater velocity, not pressure.

ganmo

Lu Tze wrote: »

They create greater velocity, not pressure.

Greater pressure = greater velocity when released

Say my name

Mooooo wrote: »

Digesters in Holland are going bankrupt apparently. Getting rid of the digestate is a big cost.

They may bring in some way of burning/pyrolysing that and get some heating energy off it and have a charred fert product at the end. Kind of like what happens with the turkey manure in England and it's burnt and the ash is sold as Fibrophos.

Actually poultry manure should be all mandatory burnt in this country and then you wouldn't have these botulism cases popping up. The workers in these places are not the owners anymore so an odd dead hen gets forgotten about in the manure. Burning it before it's landspread would solve a lot.

Water John

Water pumped storage is quite efficient, 80/90%. If the differential between night and day is enough, it works. Problem is capital set up cost. Turlough Hill is really used for short bursts. It can be activated in 12 seconds. Used to balance the grid.

See dry AD in the IFJ also at Ploughing Match.

Del2005

yosemitesam1 wrote: »

Wonder what sort of energy could be stored if you were to run a pump sending water up a hill to a lagoon to be released as you need it

The amount of land required to store the water makes it not viable. We'd have to flood nearly every upland valley and if you think its hard to get wind or solar up wait till you want to cover our uplands dams.

Del2005

Who2 wrote: »

With the advancement of pv panels is it not a far more practical approach with loads of sheds lying around the country set at 15’ they are ideally suited to provide adequate area for lads to generate a substantial percentage of the country’s power needs. The thing is there will be no big kill financially for anyone person or group bar the manufacturers so this won’t be pushed.

Ask Germany's neighbours how effective widespread micro generation is. There is a massive finical cost to rebuild our electric network from a few large inputs to thousands of small ones, which ESB networks was trying to do with the interconnectors