Does the LGBT forum charter need to be updated?

Annasopra

Hey all

Recently it was suggested to me that the forum charter needs to be updated to say something along the lines of:mature, constructive, civil discussion is expected

There have also been some further suggestions below

General LGBT charter suggestions:

a) Victim Blaming (which I have experienced first hand several times on the LGBT forum): Placing, or attempting to place fault on the victim of a verbal, physical or sexual assault should not be tolerated at all.

b) Denialism: The denying of hate crimes or that transphobia and homophobia exists as a prevalent problem in society should not be condoned on any level. Furthermore, downplaying the role transphobia and homophobia plays in a crime where the victim is or was perceived by the attacker to be a member of the LGBT+ community should be grounds for sanctioning. This should extend to hypothetical scenarios also. On an LGBT+ forum, this kind of denial is completely unacceptable. It is damaging to those who have suffered homophobic/transphobic attacks. And yet, I have seen non-LGBT users hound people on the LGBT forum refusing to accept that these things are hate crimes.
This should include hypothetical scenarios.

c) Trolling devises, including: bad faith questions (or sealioning), micro-aggressions (dogwhistling and misgendering) and Gaslighting need to be seriously tackled better. Right now it's a joke.

Trans and non-binary specific:

Denialism: Refusing to acknowledge that transpeople's identities are valid (both adults and children) on an LGBT+ forum is again unacceptable and needs to be treated more severely.

Vilification of Trans healthcare: Attacking and criticizing the medical professionals (Doctors, Nurses, etc.), parents and transpeople in regards trans rights to healthcare is completely shameful and needs to be stopped. Comparing the treatment of a trans patient to child abuse is both dangerous and completely reprehensible on a LGBT forum. It needs to result in the harshest of punishments. Trans Healthcare should under no circumstances be under attack on a forum that supposedly exists for our protection.

Misgendering: Misgendering is considered as extremely abusive when aimed at trans or non-binary people, and as such should be dealt with more effectively. It is a subtle form of dogwhistling (or micro-aggression) designed by the abuser to incense the victim - and, yes, mods (especially non-LGBT) lacking awareness of trans issues will more often tend to ignore it or brush it off as "not a big deal". It is, in fact, a huge deal. And given my past experience of non-LGBT mods when I have highlighted such abuse, I am rightfully concerned that we now have one modding the LGBT forum. The following needs to be prohibited: using gendered language such as (but not limited to) "He", "She", "Dude", "Man", "Sis" when addressing user whose gender identity you are not aware of. Claiming you didn't know is not good enough. Excusing it as something innocent is not good enough. If you are dealing with trans and non-binary people you are dealing with people highly sensitive to this form of abuse, and you nee to understand that if you enter into an LGBT+ space.

And just to add: words like "Dude" are gender loaded to pretend otherwise is an insult to everybody's intelligence. For example: "I had sex with a dude last night." - literally nobody is thinking that "dude" refers to a woman in that sentence - and anyone who would argue that they would is basically just trolling.

Annasopra

The mods would welcome any feedback on any updates you think are needed

Avatar MIA

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

The mods would welcome any feedback on any updates you think are needed

I very much dislike that a request is required to post in the soccer forum, however, given the understandable sensitivities it would suit this forum much better. The purpose of this forum shouldn't be as a vehicle to change the behaviour of the non LGBT+ community, but to allow a safe place for those that are LGBT+.

robyntmorton

The charter does cover a lot at the moment, and the general boards rules too (read:don’t be a d!ck) can be invoked as required, but it wouldn’t do any harm to remind everyone that LGBT+ people are not here for their entertainment, and that trolling or bad faith posting (give examples if required) will not be tolerated and will be met with infractions or a smack with the biggest, sparkliest, most glitteriest ban hammer known to exist.

Misgendering can possibly be an innocent mistake (some usernames, particularly if you’re not familiar with the poster, can be somewhat androgynous) but REPEATED misgendering (after a nice simple “sorry, it’s not he/she, it’s she/he”) on the other hand should be stamped out.

Finally, it should be said that we can’t just assume bad faith posting, and some benefit of the doubt should be given. This means not automatically calling out what someone may think is in bad faith (it might not be), but to ignore it, or report it, and it will be dealt with.

Ten of Swords

The forum charter is fairly comprehensive as is but I think it is certainly worth calling out some of the actions that this forum has faced recently, specifically;

1) Victim blaming (this has happened on a number of threads and frequently derails it or renders it useless to the op)

2) Misgendering. As already stated this can be innocent but the specific and recent examples I am thinking of were not innocent and were a veiled dig

As I've said the charter is quite robust in it's current form but is also specifically mentions that this forum is meant to be a place where LGBT people can feel safe/comfortable and our views are respected but lately it doesn't feel like this is the case at all.

The mods do a great job and it's a largely thankless task they do in their own free time but part of the issue I see is moderation needs to be more visible (cards for once offs and thread bans for repeated infractions). No good having rules if they are not seen to be of real value. This is not a dig at the mods at all but maybe this could give them something to reflect on

One eyed Jack

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Recently it was suggested to me that the forum charter needs to be updated to say something along the lines of:mature, constructive, civil discussion is expected.

Does that really need to be specified? It’s a given, surely? The line between civil and uncivil is generally not obvious because of the way posters perceptions so that’s why there are Moderators to intervene and guide posters to become better posters. It’s been about four years since I read the charter as I haven’t felt I needed to in that time, and it covers all of this stuff already really. It shouldn’t require specifics to spell out to posters what is expected of them and what is or isn’t acceptable.

This particular part for instance -

c) Trolling devises, including: bad faith questions (or sealioning), micro-aggressions (dogwhistling and misgendering) and Gaslighting need to be seriously tackled better. Right now it's a joke.

I’m relieved it was robyn said it and not me but I was thinking “Don’t be a dick is fine, covers a multitude and it’s easy to understand”. But then I thought “Don’t say that, find another way to say that!”, because I thought welll, it could be perceived as a micro-aggression given the use of the word ‘dick’ in that sentence and the context and connotations which are generally associated with the term. If I perceive that and robyn didn’t, is robyn in the wrong for using the term? Should robyn be automatically sanctioned for using a term which could be perceived as a micro-aggression? Policing micro-aggressions and that sort of stuff isn’t helping anyone IMO. It only serves to make people hyper-vigilant about their use of language to the point of paranoia, where they err on the side of caution and just don’t consider it worth saying anything. The forum dies as a result. Nobody wants to contribute anything because it’s simply not worth it getting bogged down in those sort of micro-arguments. I wasn’t going to bother contributing to this thread because that’s kind of where we’re at now. That’s not creating a safe space, it’s creating a space which fosters paranoia and fear.

Misgendering: Misgendering is considered as extremely abusive when aimed at trans or non-binary people, and as such should be dealt with more effectively. It is a subtle form of dogwhistling (or micro-aggression) designed by the abuser to incense the victim - and, yes, mods (especially non-LGBT) lacking awareness of trans issues will more often tend to ignore it or brush it off as "not a big deal". It is, in fact, a huge deal. And given my past experience of non-LGBT mods when I have highlighted such abuse, I am rightfully concerned that we now have one modding the LGBT forum. The following needs to be prohibited: using gendered language such as (but not limited to) "He", "She", "Dude", "Man", "Sis" when addressing user whose gender identity you are not aware of. Claiming you didn't know is not good enough. Excusing it as something innocent is not good enough. If you are dealing with trans and non-binary people you are dealing with people highly sensitive to this form of abuse, and you nee to understand that if you enter into an LGBT+ space.

If I wasn’t a forum regular, I would simply have no idea of robyntron’s gender for example. I can make assumptions from usernames like Joey is probably a guy, robyn is probably a girl and robin would be a guy, etc. Ten of Swords? No idea. If it were Ten of Swords had talked about glittery ban hammers, I’d assume they were a girl. Prohibiting the use of pronouns which assume a persons identity when they’re using a pseudonym is needlessly petty to be honest. I’d a poster the other day apologise for what they thought was condescending when they shortened my name to oej. I didn’t take it that way at all, didn’t even occur to me. They perceived it that way, which I thought was just unfortunate and unnecessary for them to be apologetic for. I was more interested in their points they were making.

Misgendering happens, and it’s unfortunate for the person who is misgendered, but given we use ambiguous pseudonyms on an online forum, it shouldn’t be expected that people are aware of a persons gender identity. Nobody can possibly be aware of something they simply aren’t aware of, and the idea that they should be, or perceiving their intent as automatically malicious is bad faith in and of itself. If a person is obviously and intentionally and continuously misgendering a person when they have been made aware of that persons gender identity, then by all means - slap ‘em with the glittery ban hammer!

One thing I would just like to add now I’m reminded of it, and it’s something I’ve always felt was lacking in the forum - humour! Honestly, it was tried a couple of times recently with the comedians thread and the funny side of not being straight thread being resurrected, but to me at least the attempts just felt artificial, inauthentic attempts to kind of create an impression of “we can do humour, seriously!” It feels staged, forced, and fake, and that’s not coming from a place where people I know at least do have a sense of humour, and the fact that they happen to be gay, lesbian, etc is often just an additional element to their personality. I’ll never forget it was nearly 20 years ago now when Kenny Everett and Sinead O’ Connor were on the Late Late Show and Sinead was being her usual self, and Kenny was being his unusual self, and ‘O Connor was digging and digging and Kenny put it very simply when he said this:


In an interview on Ireland's The Late Late Show with Gay Byrne and Sinéad O'Connor in February 1989, Everett was challenged by O'Connor about his support for the Tory Party in the light of his homosexuality and the Conservative's Section 28 addition to the Local Government Act. Everett clarified that he was not a "full Tory", but that he had been appalled by the actions of Arthur Scargill, whom he saw as "inciting violence" and "rabble rousing" [sic] and who he thought looked like "Hitler reborn". He had consequently supported the actions of Margaret Thatcher in opposing Scargill. He said he would stand up for gay rights if he were asked providing "it was a jolly occasion", but he also felt that being in a minority and in the public eye, he could do more for gay rights by showing that he was funny and human rather than by marching in the streets.


If you knew what Kenny was like, you’d understand his perspective and the point he was making, but 20 years later it does appear as though there are more Sinead O’ Connors about who perceive insult and injury where there was none intended, and it does a disservice IMO to people I know at least who are genuinely funny, because they don’t take themselves so seriously, and it’s not that they provide entertainment for people, but rather that they are just better able to make people think without being unnecessarily aggressive and making people feel like that person is constantly going out of their way to find insult and injury and perceive being slighted in every word that comes from another persons mouth, and those types of people are generally best avoided. It’s not homophobia, it’s the perception that miserable people are generally best avoided because they’re miserable, not because of their gender identity or sexual orientation. That kind of person isn’t doing themselves any favours, and whether it’s fair or not, depending upon the influence that person has over a community or within a community, the perception that the community are generally a miserable shower tends to become associated with them, and they too, become thought of as probably best avoided.

Big Bag of Chips

As a moderator in Personal Issues I think adding a line like "mature, civil discussion" or similar is a catch all. And it is something that there can be no argument with if someone needs to be moderated for resorting to insults, or childish retorts.

I think it is also important to stress in the charter that being L, G, B or T is not a "choice" and that anyone who suggests that someone "chooses" to live this way is somehow wrong, at fault, or inconveniencing the general public will earn a straight 1 week ban from the LGBT forum. No warning, no infraction.

Occasionally in Personal Issues we get silly season where posters seem to be a bit more intolerant of people, their issues or even their advice, and sometimes we have to go through phases of heavy handed moderation just to get the forum back to its intended purposes. Other times we can have long stretches where other than approving anonymous posts, little or no moderation is needed, because people are aware (after a few moderator warnings) of what is and isn't acceptable in the forum.

I think the LGBT forum is going through a "silly season" phase at the minute, which is keeping the moderators busy. But I think keeping the Charter simple, and direct saves a lot of arguments, and once people learn what is and isn't acceptable the forum will be allowed to grow and flow better.

Just my tuppence...

Big Bag of Chips

Joey, here is a link to the Personal Issues Charter, there might be something in it that is also relevant to the LGBT forum.

sexmag

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

mature, constructive, civil discussion is expected

Id just like to ask what this implies?

Is this civil "discussion" about all aspects of LGBT and for hearing all points of view from all sides of people,those who are LGBT and not but come here to learn and discuss thier point of views so they can be educated further or just the ones that compliment everyone who is LGBT and put down any comments that "go against the grain"(thats the only wording i can think of to say waht i mean)?

Because if its the second it will jsut be an echo chamber of people agreeing with one another.

I fully agree carding and banning people who are rude, trolling or being offensive but referring to some by a pronoun that you dont know they want to be reffered to and getting banned is ridiculous, also what ive seen through this forum is anyone who has any opinion on the matter that may not agree with everyone is immediately put down.

I like coming to this forum to have a discussion,debate and to further educate my self on the people and the world of LGBT but now fear of making any comment now incase it construed i was being (un)intentionally offensive or trolling.

If this forum is just for LGBT people to talk and not have anyone say boo then let me know and i wont comment again and wish you all the best but i was enjoying learning and reading things here and to an extent the debating and discussions involved

Annasopra

I think deliberate misgendering is incredibly rude and disrespectful.

Sorry but I cant agree with you at all sexmag that getting banned for deliberately misgendering someone is ridiculous. It isnt. Its pure nasty rude offensive trolling.

My own opinion on misgendering is that oftentimes we make assumptions and mistakenly misgender. When its deliberately done it really isnt ok.

sexmag

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I think deliberate misgendering is incredibly rude and disrespectful.

Sorry but I cant agree with you at all sexmag that getting banned for deliberately misgendering someone is ridiculous. It isnt. Its pure nasty rude offensive trolling.

My own opinion on misgendering is that oftentimes we make assumptions and mistakenly misgender. When its deliberately done it really isnt ok.

Im sorry but im not sure where i said deliberately misgendering someone is ok? I fully agree its not.

Maybe that came across wrong, but i agree with your second part, people will make assumptions, these are innocent of course and not meant to be taken as offense and im sure once corrected they wont do it again.

But to ban people right off the bat is not cool, this world is changing, people are changing and it hard for people who arent involved to keep up which is why i frequent this forum to try and make sure im involved and kept up to speed

Annasopra

sexmag wrote: »

Im sorry but im not sure where i said deliberately misgendering someone is ok? I fully agree its not.

Maybe that came across wrong, but i agree with your second part, people will make assumptions, these are innocent of course and not meant to be taken as offense and im sure once corrected they wont do it again.

But to ban people right off the bat is not cool, this world is changing, people are changing and it hard for people who arent involved to keep up which is why i frequent this forum to try and make sure im involved and kept up to speed

The post you put up yesterday that was deleted pretty much inferred similar. The way you phrased your post today was quite confusing.

Big Bag of Chips

I am female, very often on boards I get called "he". It doesn't bother me, because I know the people referring to me as such haven't a clue whether I am or not, and it is not something that is an issue for me.

In the LGBT forum, I think it is a fair assumption to think it could very well be an issue for a lot of the posters, and as such I do believe a line should be added to the LGBT forum charter stating that if you are unsure of a posters gender, then they should be referred to as "they". And I do believe if someone breaks this charter rule they should be banned. As with all forums, ignorance of the rules is not a defence! The very virtue of the forum is that it is a place for LGBT people to feel safe, and possibly for people who are struggling with their own gender issues to try tease them out.

The ban can always be disputed, and possibly overturned if the poster can prove it was a genuine error. But if it was known that it was a hard and fast rule in the LGBT forum, then it would be adhered too, and cause less offense to those affected by it.

sexmag

Big Bag of Chips wrote: »

I am female, very often on boards I get called "he". It doesn't bother me, because I know the people referring to me as such haven't a clue whether I am or not, and it is not something that is an issue for me.

In the LGBT forum, I think it is a fair assumption to think it could very well be an issue for a lot of the posters, and as such I do believe a line should be added to the LGBT forum charter stating that if you are unsure of a posters gender, then they should be referred to as "they". And I do believe if someone breaks this charter rule they should be banned. As with all forums, ignorance of the rules is not a defence! The very virtue of the forum is that it is a place for LGBT people to feel safe, and possibly for people who are struggling with their own gender issues to try tease them out.

The ban can always be disputed, and possibly overturned if the poster can prove it was a genuine error. But if it was known that it was a hard and fast rule in the LGBT forum, then it would be adhered too, and cause less offense to those affected by it.

For the most part i can understand where your coming from but in my opinion that's the start of a slippy slope that leads to more extreme rules. I was hoping for a more progressive forum open and more accepting of all,LGBT and those who aren't.

So no disrespect but in that regard I'll be unfollowing the forum.

Good luck everyone,I wish you all the best in life

Annasopra

Thanks for all the feedback.

I have updated the charter.