House Of Fraser

bazelbrush

Hi All ,


With the news today that HOF Dundrum will be no longer accepting gift cards etc. Where does this leave the consumer (myself included !!) Who are in possession of gift cards ? Would they now just be considered worthless or what can I do here ?

Thanks

coylemj

You are an unsecured creditor which puts you at the back of the queue. Anyone but Mike Ashley might cave in to pressure and agree to redeem them but he doesn't give a XXXX about his public image so expect nothing and you won't be disappointed.

Virtanen

What he said

Hold on to it just in case, they might eventually decide to honour it once the buy-out is complete, but unfortunately they are under no obligation to do so

Tippex

yep pretty much worthless now as you are considered a creditor and will be at the end of a long list to get a payout. Unless when the purchase of the dundrum store goes through that Mike Ashley agrees to honour them (I have my doubts given his track record)

dudara

There may be an option to charge back against your credit card provider, depending on how long ago they were bought etc. It's worth contacting your provider to find out.

CeilingFly

This is an unusual situation as HOF dundrum and on of the Glasgow stores are a separate legal entity with Dundrum being a subsidiary of that entity.

They are still in administration and whilst a verbal agreement to include those two stores is there, it needs some legal tidying up before it can be completed.

In the UK they are requesting people send the gift cards in for exchange to new gift cards (obviously hoping many don't bother). This puts a fixed cost (and probably much lower) on outstanding gift card.

I would guess something similar will be offered here if Ashley decides to keep HOF dundrum open.



Expect a very large "Lilywhites" sports department to open in many HOF stores - ashley's more premium sports retail brand.

TheQuietFella

Why people purchase gift cards for one particular store I just don't know!

An Post do a gift card that covers a multitude of places!

ArthurG

TheQuietFella wrote: »

Why people purchase gift cards for one particular store I just don't know!

An Post do a gift card that covers a multitude of places!

Agree - given the multitude of possible issues with gift cards, why do people persist in buying them, or indeed not using them in a timely fashion?. I sympathise with the OP, but it serves as a lesson as to the risk that goes with buying these things. The credit card charge back mentioned above may be the best bet.

5rtytry56

ArthurG wrote: »

Agree - given the multitude of possible issues with gift cards, why do people persist in buying them, or indeed not using them in a timely fashion?. I sympathise with the OP, but it serves as a lesson as to the risk that goes with buying these things. ...

+1. Gift cards are heavily advertised on electronic signage in Dundrum mall itself. Scenarios like the OP's seem to weigh at the back of my own mind though

coylemj

CeilingFly wrote: »

In the UK they are requesting people send the gift cards in for exchange to new gift cards (obviously hoping many don't bother). This puts a fixed cost (and probably much lower) on outstanding gift card.

Would you have a link for that? And is 'they' the administrators or Mike Ashely? I don't understand why anyone is offering to exchange old for new gift vouchers when suppliers and HoF Pensioners are getting thrown to the wolves.

From the Guardian today ...

Sports Direct has written to suppliers, which were due to be paid this week, saying it would only pay them for money due after the administration. Suppliers, which are thought to be owed more than £60m, had hoped Ashley would honour their debts in the interests of good relations in the future.

Pensioners are also likely to lose out under the deal. The House of Fraser pension fund has not been taken on by Ashley and so will be assessed by the industry-funded lifeboat, the Pension Protection Fund.


https://www.theguardian.com/business/2018/aug/14/mike-ashley-house-of-fraser-stores-open-sports-direct

ArthurG

From that article:

"The £90m paid by Ashley went towards paying House of Fraser’s bondholders and banks, with other creditors not expected to receive more than 3p in the pound from administrators."

CeilingFly

This is the only link I can give as the article I read was in an industry newsletter that is behind a paywall.


https://www.which.co.uk/news/2018/08/house-of-fraser-rejects-gift-cards-what-you-need-to-know/


The good news is if there is no value to the HOF gift cards, then if they were purchased with a credit OR debit card you will be able to do a chargeback.

As per the recent gift experience Ireland issue, you have 180 days from notification that cards will not be honoured to claim your chargeback with a maximum 540 days from original purchase date.

coylemj

CeilingFly wrote: »

The good news is if there is no value to the HOF gift cards, then if they were purchased with a credit OR debit card you will be able to do a chargeback.

I think that is the best (only?) option to pursue. I cannot for the life of me see what they administrators propose to give you if you send back gift cards or vouchers i.e. they will replace them with exactly what?

Their options potentially are ...

1. Redeem them with cash - not going to happen if suppliers and HoF pensioners are being screwed.

2. Replace them with Sports Direct vouchers to the same value but that doesn't need the admin. involved, Ashley could simply announce that HoF stores will honour the vouchers.

3. Inform them that as unsecured creditors, they will get nothing or (as quoted above) 3p in the pound.

CeilingFly

PR plays a part too. Tens of thousands of grannies and kids with HOF vouchers are of more interest to hysterical media people than a couple of dozen suppliers, even if the supplier loss is many times the granny voucher value.

From what I currently see, new HOF vouchers are being issued in the UK. These will be issued by Sports Direct ltd, but will be HOF vouchers.

As it will take 2-3 weeks to print and programme a new gift card system, it could be early September before there's definite news.

And until there's a definite statement, a chargeback can't be done.

But unless you paid by cash, your fallback will be a chargeback.

coylemj

CeilingFly wrote: »

PR plays a part too. Tens of thousands of grannies and kids with HOF vouchers are of more interest to hysterical media people than a couple of dozen suppliers, even if the supplier loss is many times the granny voucher value.

PR would have a part to play if there was people involved who cared about their public image, that does not apply to Mike Ashley. His reputation is already in the toilet as far as the UK press is concerned and cannot sink further so he has nothing to lose. And the administrators will have no money to honour vouchers after preferred creditors (e.g. employees' holiday pay) have been taken care of.

If you've never heard of Mike Ashley before now, you're holding HoF vouchers and you think that pressure from the media in the UK might persuade him to honour them, take a look at a typical article in the press about him .....

https://www.theguardian.com/business/2017/jul/06/mike-ashley-high-court-sports-direct-newcastle-united

CeilingFly

coylemj wrote: »

PR would have a part to play if there was people involved who cared about their public image, that does not apply to Mike Ashley. His reputation is already in the toilet as far as the UK press is concerned

He's desperately trying to change his image - not overly successful yet, but he has started to act a little better.

Think a bad version of M O'Leary and trying to do a bigger turnaround.

HOF is his opportunity to show that he can do what he said he would and bring his business onto a new path.

HOF refused to allow him put lilywhites concessions into their stores due to his reputation.

But as I said, the fallback is a chargeback under the new "future use" (plain language Gift vouchers) visa/mastercard chargeback rules, so nothing really to lose unless you paid by cash.

road_high

Doubt there's a whole lot being purchased in Dundrum at the moment? What if you had to return an item/s you'd spent 100s on only to find the shutters pulled and no come back whatsoever? It's not exactly Penneys price tags

Lux23

Remember when the National Consumer Agency (pre-October 2014) forced HMV to accept the cards, was that a different situation? The details are fuzzy.

coylemj

Lux23 wrote: »

Remember when the National Consumer Agency (pre-October 2014) forced HMV to accept the cards, was that a different situation?

It would be more correct to say that consumer bodies 'persuaded' the new owner to accept the vouchers.

If I take over a company from an administrator, I acquire none of the debts and contractual obligations which means I can refuse to pay supplier invoices (for goods delivered before I took over) and I can close branches and hand keys back to landlords regardless of what type of lease applied to the premises.

And nobody can 'force' me to honour vouchers for which the previous owner pocketed the money. The press and consumer bodies can apply pressure but legally it is a debt which is the administrator's problem, not mine.

daheff

dudara wrote: »

There may be an option to charge back against your credit card provider, depending on how long ago they were bought etc. It's worth contacting your provider to find out.

Probably not. Being a gift card its probably somebody elses card provider.


In any case, there is an argument that there is no call for a chargeback as the purchaser actually got what they asked to buy -namely a giftcard for the store. Being able to actually use is would be seperate to the purchase.


the sooner giftcards are regulated properly the better for all concerned.

CeilingFly

daheff wrote: »

Probably not. Being a gift card its probably somebody elses card provider.


In any case, there is an argument that there is no call for a chargeback as the purchaser actually got what they asked to buy -namely a giftcard for the store. Being able to actually use is would be seperate to the purchase.


the sooner giftcards are regulated properly the better for all concerned.

new rules from mastercard and visa since April are specifically aimed towards giftcards or "future dated purchases"

Tippgirl74

I am wondering if anyone that posted back the giftcards as requested has received any contact from house of Fraser? I posted them over 6 weeks ago with all my details and no reply!!

beerbaron

FYI - Reply received - Mike Ashley is a <SNIP>



Thank you for your inquiry, please allow me to explain the current situation.



House of Fraser (stores Ltd) went into administration on the 10th August 2018, the administrators Ernest & Young (SIC) then took control of the business and gave legal instruction that we can no longer accept House of Fraser gift cards after the 10th August. This instruction does now remain in place under the new ownership of our business.



The formal position is you can lodge a Proof of Debt in the administration for the value of the gift card. In the event there is a distribution to unsecured creditors then you may receive [x] cents in the € in relation to the value of the claim. Generally in an administration of this size the process could extend out for a significant period of time before there is clarity on whether 1) a dividend is in fact going to be paid to unsecured creditors and 2) the period of time before an actual dividend payment is made. Both factors depend on the value of the assets of the company’s assets realised and the time taken to realise them.



We completely understand that people are very upset and frustrated about this and it is with regret that I inform you we can no longer accept these vouchers or gift cards.



Kind Regards etc,

ct5amr2ig1nfhp

Why is he a <SNIP>? I would think you should have a problem with the previous owners.

ytpe2r5bxkn0c1

beerbaron wrote: »

FYI - Reply received - Mike Ashley is a <SNIP>



Thank you for your inquiry, please allow me to explain the current situation.



House of Fraser (stores Ltd) went into administration on the 10th August 2018, the administrators Ernest & Young (SIC) then took control of the business and gave legal instruction that we can no longer accept House of Fraser gift cards after the 10th August. This instruction does now remain in place under the new ownership of our business.



The formal position is you can lodge a Proof of Debt in the administration for the value of the gift card. In the event there is a distribution to unsecured creditors then you may receive [x] cents in the € in relation to the value of the claim. Generally in an administration of this size the process could extend out for a significant period of time before there is clarity on whether 1) a dividend is in fact going to be paid to unsecured creditors and 2) the period of time before an actual dividend payment is made. Both factors depend on the value of the assets of the company’s assets realised and the time taken to realise them.



We completely understand that people are very upset and frustrated about this and it is with regret that I inform you we can no longer accept these vouchers or gift cards.



Kind Regards etc,

That's exactly the reply I would expect from anybody taking over a company in administration. Your issue is with the previous owners. He didn't, and who would?, buy House of Fraser's debts.

coylemj

CeilingFly wrote: »

In the UK they are requesting people send the gift cards in for exchange to new gift cards (obviously hoping many don't bother). This puts a fixed cost (and probably much lower) on outstanding gift card.

This has now been exposed as nothing more than a stalling tactic to get the press and TV off their backs in the immediate aftermath of the collapse into administration. Sadly it gave false hope to thousands of people holding HoF vouchers.

beerbaron wrote: »

House of Fraser (stores Ltd) went into administration on the 10th August 2018, the administrators Ernest & Young (SIC) then took control of the business and gave legal instruction that we can no longer accept House of Fraser gift cards after the 10th August. This instruction does now remain in place under the new ownership of our business.