Leinster vs. Crusaders

arsebiscuits1

Seen a bit of debate around the place about who would win.

It's mostly been a really good chance for the Leinster and Crusaders fans to let their inferiority complexes out and be incredulous that other people don't consider their team as good and proceed to argue with everyone. Standard forum practise really:D

But I came across this article this article which I feel is just inaccurate

Mo'unga barely has a cap for the All Blacks, there is no way he can be tied with Sexton. The kid has had an armchair ride from his pack all season long.

Ringrose and Henshaw are a better centre pairing than Crotty and Goodhue. I don't think it's an overly close margin either.

Every other part of that article I agree with. Any back row that has Reid in it is automatically better. He is just such a good player.

Ditto I think Scott Barrett and Dev are about on par. But Whitelock is an exceptionally talented played and boat loads more experience than Ryan.

My biggest gripe though is most people seem to think the Crusaders would win. And it wouldn't be close. I don't agree with this at all. I think Leinsters pack as a unit are still far stronger than anyone else the Crusaders have come against. And I think that would cause problems for Mo'unga.

I don't think Leinster would win every time, but I feel if it were a 3 games series, it would go down to the wire.

It's an interesting question not helped by that article being fairly openly biased.

Super rugby really is a different angle on the game but still the Crusaders were very clinical and hard working in defence against a Lion's team playing a not entirely dissimilar brand to Ireland.

Leinster though are that bit better at club level at taking their chances than Ireland are at International level and Leinsters defence is much stronger than the Lion's.

I also think a fit Sean O'Brien changes the narrative quite a bit in terms of the perceptions of the backrow. A SOB / Leavy / Conan backrow with Ruddock and Fardy knocking around is embarrassingly strong.

At the end of the day while the All Blacks tend to be more convincing against other teams than we are, they have struggled against us since 2013. A first choice Ireland team could easily contain:

Healy
Furlong
Toner
Ryan
SOB
Leavy
Sexton
Henshaw
Ringrose
Larmour
Kearney

That's 11 out of a starting 15 and we'd have a few on the bench also. If Fardy / Lowe were available for Ireland they'd likely be in the mix.

I don't know which team would win but I'd wager there would be very little between them. Sexton being the better game manager would force me to pick Leinster if I had to pick a winner.

pickarooney

Crusaders by about 12 I'd say. I think they're right about the centres, to be honest.

stephen_n

It’s very hard to tell since they play in very different leagues, but it would be a great match to watch though.

Clegg

On the centres debate I'd say Crotty is the best of the four but Ringrose and Henshaw would be second and third.

Crusaders play in a very controlled fashion. They've an excellent set piece and can kill you with their rolling mauls. They're not dissimilar to Leinster actually. Would be a fascinating contest.

swiwi_

Honorable draw. It then comes down to a coach breakdancing contest and there my Leinster Amigos, Razor hands Leo his arse.

stellenbosch

Clegg wrote: »

On the centres debate I'd say Crotty is the best of the four but Ringrose and Henshaw would be second and third.

Crusaders play in a very controlled fashion. They've an excellent set piece and can kill you with their rolling mauls. They're not dissimilar to Leinster actually. Would be a fascinating contest.

Spot on re Crotty. He has been outstanding

Buer

I think people underrate Jack Goodhue also. Just because he isn't Conrad Smith, doesn't mean he's not a top class operator. He has only turned 23 and is pushing to break into the NZ side after being capped against France. Coincidentally, Smith didn't get capped until around the same age and didn't really break into the NZ side properly until he was 26 or 27.

Unfortunately for Goodhue, NZ have Crotty, ALB, SBW, Jordie Barrett and Laumape all available to play centre too. I think he'll take a little while to get into the side but once there, I can see him getting 50+ caps.

Clegg

We're also underrating Ringrose in all of this too. He's a very, very skillful player that does a lot of small things in attack that are missed. Easily the best 13 in Ireland and one of the best in Europe.

FrannoFan

I think if you look at the respective benches / players outside the 23 leinster have more experience and depth.

That comes down to finance as nz can't afford to keep 2nd tier players if northern teams come sniffing around.
A Lot of the crusaders bench wouldn't have huge numbers of appearances at super rugby level while leinsters would have boat loads of international caps.

If it was tight leinster could edge it.

It's similar to Ireland v nz - how many would you expect Ireland to win in a 3 game series?

Yeah_Right

That article was a load of rubbish. I would have given Leinster the win in all those match ups except midfield (tie) and second row (Crusaders are better). Front row, loose forwards and outside backs - Leinster by a narrow margin. The halves - Leinster by some distance.

However I think the Crusaders would win.

molloyjh

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That article was a load of rubbish. I would have given Leinster the win in all those match ups except midfield (tie) and second row (Crusaders are better). Front row, loose forwards and outside backs - Leinster by a narrow margin. The halves - Leinster by some distance.

However I think the Crusaders would win.

And you were doing so well YR!

Podge_irl

Yeah_Right wrote: »

That article was a load of rubbish. I would have given Leinster the win in all those match ups except midfield (tie) and second row (Crusaders are better). Front row, loose forwards and outside backs - Leinster by a narrow margin. The halves - Leinster by some distance.

However I think the Crusaders would win.

Why, out of curiosity?

I think Leinster's depth in the backrow is absurd, but I wouldn't argue against Crusaders being better there - especially with Heaslip and SOB basically gone. Also our outside backs are a touch on the one-note side pace wise.

I do think our halves are better by some distance though, mostly based on Sexton. And with a decent pack they will have free reign to make that count. I don't see how you can think a pack can be evenish and Leinster have better halfbacks and still think they'll lose...

realhorrorshow

Clegg wrote: »

We're also underrating Ringrose in all of this too. He's a very, very skillful player that does a lot of small things in attack that are missed. Easily the best 13 in Ireland and one of the best in Europe.

Was only thinking over the weekend that Goodhue reminds me of Ringrose. Extremely smart players who do the basics well and almost always make the correct decisions, strong and intelligent defenders, elusive runners, and good handlers of the ball.

swiwi_

Yeah_Right wrote: »

The halves - Leinster by some distance.

Podge_irl wrote: »

I do think our halves are better by some distance though, mostly based on Sexton. .

Have you actually watched the Crusaders this season, Podge?

Byrn Hall has been pretty decent, I'd probably call it a par with McGrath on form, maybe McGrath just edges it. As for Drummond vs JGP, that's basically too average NZ 9s cancelling each other out. Drummond did tour with the ABs last season IIRC (but remains uncapped) while JGP was never within in a bull's roar of the NZ team.

Mo'unga has been in scintillating form such that there is currently a debate as to whether he should replace Barrett at 10 for NZ - even ROG suggested moving Barrett to 15 to allow Mo'unga to start at 10 for NZ. Now, I'm not in any way suggesting Mo'Unga is better than Sexton, but there is not "some distance" between them, we are not talking a NZ Ian Keatley here. On the bench, yeah I'd have Byrne (or Carbery...oh wait...:p) comfortably ahead of Hunt.

My personal opinion: team with home advantage wins.

Podge_irl

swiwi_ wrote: »

Have you actually watched the Crusaders this season, Podge?

Not much no.

When Mo'unga does actually displace Barrett and performs at international level I'll change my opinion

swiwi_

Podge_irl wrote: »

Not much no.

When Mo'unga does actually displace Barrett and performs at international level I'll change my opinion

10/10 for honesty...

Squidgy Black

I think Mo'unga is class. He's not top level yet, but he's a much more traditional 10 than Barrett and has a great boot too.

Buer

Mo'unga was class this season. Looks a very polished player and I'd definitely be looking at him at 10 in the RC ahead of BB for a game or two. BB is a supremely gifted athlete but I think he benefits from being in the NZ team. He'd be far more exposed if he wasn't part of two extremely dominant teams. I think we saw that during the Lions test series. Once the Lions pack got to grips after the opening test, his test series was less than impressive. Mo'unga is potentially a steadier hand at the tiller.

But with all that said, there's a gulf between Super Rugby and top tier test rugby. It's very hard to give a definitive assessment of Mo'unga against Sexton given he hasn't played test rugby (I'm not counting 10 minutes off the bench in a match that was already won). So, until we see him play at the top level and deliver, I think it's impossible to have him in the same bracket as Sexton.

I think he will be a solid test rugby player but I don't know if he's going to match the expectations of some at that level. It really remains to be seen. He's 24 now, he's not going to be a superstar but I reckon he'll be a very tidy option for NZ and pick up a significant number of caps.

irishbucsfan

I'm scared to death about the prospect of ROG whispering sweet nothings into Mo'unga's ear, turning him into a killing machine explicitly designed to destroy his greatest enemy, Jonathan Sexton.

Apart from that I'm not too concerned.

arsebiscuits1

Buer wrote: »

Mo'unga was class this season. Looks a very polished player and I'd definitely be looking at him at 10 in the RC ahead of BB for a game or two. BB is a supremely gifted athlete but I think he benefits from being in the NZ team. He'd be far more exposed if he wasn't part of two extremely dominant teams. I think we saw that during the Lions test series. Once the Lions pack got to grips after the opening test, his test series was less than impressive. Mo'unga is potentially a steadier hand at the tiller.

But with all that said, there's a gulf between Super Rugby and top tier test rugby. It's very hard to give a definitive assessment of Mo'unga against Sexton given he hasn't played test rugby (I'm not counting 10 minutes off the bench in a match that was already won). So, until we see him play at the top level and deliver, I think it's impossible to have him in the same bracket as Sexton.

I think he will be a solid test rugby player but I don't know if he's going to match the expectations of some at that level. It really remains to be seen. He's 24 now, he's not going to be a superstar but I reckon he'll be a very tidy option for NZ and pick up a significant number of caps.

I'd agree with all this. I watch a good bit of Super Rugby highlights and watched the semis and the finals. Mo'unga is good of that there is no denying. He will definitely have more that a chunk of All Black caps to his name.

But there is no comparison with Sexton at the moment. He's been the peerless best FH in the Northern Hemisphere since 2013.

And it's not a case of picking on reputation. In the last year he has steered Ireland and Leinster to every trophy they can possibly win. And that's not including his performance on the Lions tour.

I think there is a serious argument to be made that JS has been the best 10 in the world since the World Cup, nevermind being a better 10 than an uncapped player

razorblunt

Whoever wins, we lose.

arsebiscuits1

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I'd agree with all this. I watch a good bit of Super Rugby highlights and watched the semis and the finals. Mo'unga is good of that there is no denying. He will definitely have more that a chunk of All Black caps to his name.

But there is no comparison with Sexton at the moment. He's been the peerless best FH in the Northern Hemisphere since 2013.

And it's not a case of picking on reputation. In the last year he has steered Ireland and Leinster to every trophy they can possibly win. And that's not including his performance on the Lions tour.

I think there is a serious argument to be made that JS has been the best 10 in the world since the World Cup, nevermind being a better 10 than an uncapped player

Sexton's performance during the six nations was incredible. Leaving aside all the perfectly weighted and ruthlessly accurate passes, the drop goal, managing territory, controlling the pace of the game, putting lads into space and making really good decisions throughout, his commitment to the cause is what I found most remarkable. He hit every ruck that needed to be hit, he carried selflessly, he took responsibility for a lot of the big calls and he tackled hard and often.

I struggle to think of a tournament performance like it from an out half in recent memory. Drico at 13 for the 09 slam was a similarly single minded set of performances and the slam this year put Sexton into that absolute top tier bracket that I only really populate with Drico and O'Connell from Ireland.

A Kiwi will probably get world player of the year again but for me Sexton was the most influential player in Europe this year by a margin and then went and helped deliver a tour win in Australia on top of that.

arsebiscuits1

Deleted User wrote: »

Sexton's performance during the six nations was incredible. Leaving aside all the perfectly weighted and ruthlessly accurate passes, the drop goal, managing territory, controlling the pace of the game, putting lads into space and making really good decisions throughout, his commitment to the cause is what I found most remarkable. He hit every ruck that needed to be hit, he carried selflessly, he took responsibility for a lot of the big calls and he tackled hard and often.

I struggle to think of a tournament performance like it from an out half in recent memory. Drico at 13 for the 09 slam was a similarly single minded set of performances and the slam this year put Sexton into that absolute top tier bracket that I only really populate with Drico and O'Connell from Ireland.

A Kiwi will probably get world player of the year again but for me Sexton was the most influential player in Europe this year by a margin and then went and helped deliver a tour win in Australia on top of that.

I lost all respect for POTY after Drico didn't get it in '09. Since then I don't give a hoot about it. Especially since it's just an All Blacks party now. Hasn't been a non AB winner since Dusatoir in 2011

Buer

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I lost all respect for POTY after Drico didn't get it in '09. Since then I don't give a hoot about it. Especially since it's just an All Blacks party now. Hasn't been a non AB winner since Dusatoir in 2011

Has been hard enough to argue against them, though. Carter, Read, Retallick and BB were all deserving, I felt. Barrett probably wasn't deserving last year but it was a poor enough year overall for international rugby and from the nominees, he was possibly as deserving as any. Farrell and Itoje fell away in the Lions series a little (as did BB though).

They brought in a new system last year though and a new panel which I think should lead to a fairer awarding system. They've a reduced panel of 8 former players (including BOD) who vote. The nominees are based on votes cast by international coaches and players (the first voting window is already completed).

https://www.worldrugby.org/news/346029?lang=en

aloooof

arsebiscuits1 wrote: »

I lost all respect for POTY after Drico didn't get it in '09. Since then I don't give a hoot about it. Especially since it's just an All Blacks party now. Hasn't been a non AB winner since Dusatoir in 2011

Totally agree RE: Drico in 09, but to be fair to the AB's, since 2011 they've probably been the most dominant team in world sport. I can't really think of any year where I absolutely thought someone else should have won it.

Yeah_Right

Podge_irl wrote: »

Why, out of curiosity?

I think Leinster's depth in the backrow is absurd, but I wouldn't argue against Crusaders being better there - especially with Heaslip and SOB basically gone. Also our outside backs are a touch on the one-note side pace wise.

I do think our halves are better by some distance though, mostly based on Sexton. And with a decent pack they will have free reign to make that count. I don't see how you can think a pack can be evenish and Leinster have better halfbacks and still think they'll lose...

I learnt long ago to never bet against the Crusaders in knock out games.

Its the sum of the parts that makes me think the Crusaders would win. As someone else said, home team would probably win but at a neutral venue, I'd back the Crusaders. Their ability to punish teams for any errors is phenomenal. I feel that they could adapt to whatever game Leinster played and compete with them. And that Leinster would struggle to contain the Crusaders on turnover ball.

Just to clarify, I rate Mo'uaga. He is in great form and I'm looking forward to seeing him in the ABs but its one good season. He's not at Sexton's level (yet).


Also, BOD did not deserve WPOTY in 2009. There I said it. Fourie Du Preez (sp?) did.

Yeah_Right

Yeah_Right wrote: »

I learnt long ago to never bet against the Crusaders in knock out games.

Its the sum of the parts that makes me think the Crusaders would win. As someone else said, home team would probably win but at a neutral venue, I'd back the Crusaders. Their ability to punish teams for any errors is phenomenal. I feel that they could adapt to whatever game Leinster played and compete with them. And that Leinster would struggle to contain the Crusaders on turnover ball.

Just to clarify, I rate Mo'uaga. He is in great form and I'm looking forward to seeing him in the ABs but its one good season. He's not at Sexton's level (yet).


Also, BOD did not deserve WPOTY in 2009. There I said it. Fourie Du Preez (sp?) did.

Crusaders and the All Blacks are similar in that they take a mile for every inch on offer. They are ruthless at it.

That said however, the All Blacks have really struggled to do that against Ireland - Andy Farrell is probably the best backs coach in the world and you only need to watch the final 40 minutes of the 3rd Australia test to see how much he has to offer. I think at club level Leinster are on par in terms of the effectiveness of their defence even in broken play or scrambling. No doubt the internationals bring some of this back with them and I'd imagine Lancaster and Farrell are on much the same page in terms of how they coach defence.

Crusaders really impressed against the Lions in defence also. They had a few line breaks end up at or around their 5m line and they got back into shape too fast for the Lions to capitalise.

It would be a fascinating contest. Still think Sexton would be the difference between two otherwise fairly even teams.

mfceiling

irishbucsfan wrote: »

I'm scared to death about the prospect of ROG whispering sweet nothings into Mo'unga's ear, turning him into a killing machine explicitly designed to destroy his greatest enemy, Jonathan Sexton.

"Kick to the corner boy"

swiwi_

mfceiling wrote: »

"Kick to the corner boy"

“Kick to the corner, eh bro”