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Considering change dog's food- advice.

  • 02-08-2018 12:34pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭


    Hi all, first time posting in this forum.


    Just looking for a bit of feedback if anyone has any thoughts on this. I have a 16 month cockapoo, Monty. He’s allergic to poultry but seems ok, allergy wise with anything else he’s had to eat since I got him. But I would definitely say he has a sensitive digestive system. He loves his food and is very food/ treat oriented. Because of the allergy he’s on Acana lamb fed grass and once he started on that last summer he’s really thrived on it, and he loves it. It is expensive though and I’ve been reading a bit lately about grain free foods and enlarged hearts, due to lack of taurine.


    I still want to give him a good quality food, and the 2 that stood out for me were Acana Red Classic and Acana Wild Coast. Only 2% less protein in both, and both have grains. Both are also quite a bit cheaper than the lamb version which if I bought it in Ireland, the 11.4kg bag would be nudging 90 euro in shops. Zooplus sell for about 67.


    Does it seem reasonable from the price and taurine POV to trial one of the other foods? I’d probably go with the Wild Coast option. Or for the sake of a few euro stick with the lamb and try and supplement the taurine some other way? Thanks.


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭em_cat


    I take it that you’ve received the poultry dx from a vet recommended exclusion diet?

    For sensitive digestion system I would avoid lamb & duck as they are naturally high in fat and are not easily digested. Also Beef can cause issues.

    We give our yorkie x a home cooked feed made of pork, potatoes or celeriac, whole grain rice, pumpkin or butternut, we use a pressure cooker, as I do it in bulk for the week. I also put in some edible flowers sometimes, I avoid high calcium greens as they tend to cause digestive upset along with terrible gas.
    *
    For a dry kibble we use Burns Sensitive. Sometimes I will give him a sardine as a tasty treat.

    You’ve got 2 things going against you; a cocker vacuous tummy and a poodle sensitive tummy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Philster


    em_cat wrote: »
    I take it that you’ve received the poultry dx from a vet recommended exclusion diet?

    For sensitive digestion system I would avoid lamb & duck as they are naturally high in fat and are not easily digested. Also Beef can cause issues.

    We give our yorkie x a home cooked feed made of pork, potatoes or celeriac, whole grain rice, pumpkin or butternut, we use a pressure cooker, as I do it in bulk for the week. I also put in some edible flowers sometimes, I avoid high calcium greens as they tend to cause digestive upset along with terrible gas.
    *
    For a dry kibble we use Burns Sensitive. Sometimes I will give him a sardine as a tasty treat.

    You’ve got 2 things going against you; a cocker vacuous tummy and a poodle sensitive tummy.
    Hi, no we didn't do an exclusion diet. When I got him he was on Red Mills Leader and he had dreadfully runny poos, biting at paws and constantly itching and vomiting a bit at times. Ears very inflamed and scratching at them. All other causes were outruled by the vet. Someone suggested I try an independent pet shop in Dublin for diet advice and they first said it could be chicken. First I had heard of chicken allergies in dogs and to trial the Acana.

    Within a few days his poos were almost completely normal and after a week or 10 days all scratching etc had stopped. So on that basis I thought it must be an allergy. If someone even gave him a little bit of chicken as a treat or if he somehow got a bit of chicken kibble in someone else's house he would be vomiting within a few hours and scratching like crazy and ears would be inflamed. He was sick last year then with something else and needed the soft ID diet food. I didn't realise there was turkey in and he couldn't tolerate it, same symptoms as above. After a week, I overruled the vet and put him back on the Acana as he was loosing a serious amount of weight. Within 24 hours all vomiting, diarrhoea and scratching stopped and he started putting weight back on.

    I have considered the raw diet but I don't have the freezer space for it, not yet anyway. I just have this feeling that a fish based diet could be good for him. I don't have anything to back that feeling up, just a feeling. :) But I could try what you do and see how that goes.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,987 ✭✭✭Cherry Blossom


    Hi OP,

    Given the circumstances as you have explained them I'd be very much in the camp of if it's not broke, don't fix it in this case.

    Have you ever fed your dog fish or rice etc and if so how did the dog react to it.


  • Moderators, Recreation & Hobbies Moderators Posts: 9,795 Mod ✭✭✭✭DBB


    What's the link between grain free food and lack of taurine? Taurine is a meat protein, no?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭em_cat


    I refuse point blank to feed raw simply because of contamination issues but also I’m not an expert in canine nutrition.

    If you don’t mind me asking, where did you get Monty from? Sounds like he’s had a rough start:( It also seems he’s lucky to have you looking out for him.

    Our lad has EPI and other dietary issues so that’s why he gets pork it easy to digest also I’ve severe shellfish and salmon allergies so most of the ‘posh’ foods just make him miserable. Also the berries and health shop ingredients have very little scientific data in terms of canine diets so I don’t see the point.

    I mean we give him little bits of fruit every now and then but chopping & changing can really upset their stomachs and can give them IBS or acute pancreatitis. Also a lot of RAW completes have bone in them which for some dogs is ok but not for dogs with digestive issues.

    It was our vet that suggested those particular ingredients it just took a while to get the right amounts & a lot of blood panels...


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Philster


    Hi OP,

    Given the circumstances as you have explained them I'd be very much in the camp of if it's not broke, don't fix it in this case.

    Have you ever fed your dog fish or rice etc and if so how did the dog react to it.
    I think you are correct. He's had sprat and those hard salmon skin things. He'd go through a brick wall to get the sprat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Philster


    DBB wrote: »
    What's the link between grain free food and lack of taurine? Taurine is a meat protein, no?
    I'd have to go and look again to get links etc. but I read on some other forums lately that apparently grain free food was now being linked with canine cardiomyopathy (enlarged hearts). And that food with grain didn't seem to be a problem and once some dogs started on food with grain, their condition improved. So, I was a bit confused too as I thought taurine was in meat.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Philster


    em_cat wrote: »
    I refuse point blank to feed raw simply because of contamination issues but also I’m not an expert in canine nutrition.

    If you don’t mind me asking, where did you get Monty from? Sounds like he’s had a rough start:( It also seems he’s lucky to have you looking out for him.

    Our lad has EPI and other dietary issues so that’s why he gets pork it easy to digest also I’ve severe shellfish and salmon allergies so most of the ‘posh’ foods just make him miserable. Also the berries and health shop ingredients have very little scientific data in terms of canine diets so I don’t see the point.

    I mean we give him little bits of fruit every now and then but chopping & changing can really upset their stomachs and can give them IBS or acute pancreatitis. Also a lot of RAW completes have bone in them which for some dogs is ok but not for dogs with digestive issues.

    It was our vet that suggested those particular ingredients it just took a while to get the right amounts & a lot of blood panels...
    I got him at 10 weeks as someone else had taken him at 8 weeks but became ill. Personal circumstances just fell right for me at that time to be able to take him. I work full time but neighbours both sides of me both love and want dogs but can't have one for various reasons, so they come in to him numerous times during the day. He's completely spoilt :D A better social life than me.


    A few months after I got him, despite walking him always on a short lead and watching him like a hawk he swallowed a crows feather.Before I could bend down and pull it out he'd swallowed it. Being a nurse I was very worried as I could see the large quill and was worried about perforation. Very long story cut short, he ended up needing emergency surgery to remove it as it did block off his stomach and small bowel.


    Re the raw I had't really come across it until a few months ago. The training classes I went to with Monty mentioned by chance there was a law suit in the US with Acana and lead issues. And most people at the class feed raw. Did a bit of research on it and it does seem to have a lot of benefits. I also watched the film Petfooled about the dog food industry. It's not that I thought before hand that the industry would be snow white but it was really shocking. But I also looked up the suit against Acana and I felt it was a nonsense suit with no proper science behind it. Monty gets the European Acana and not the US one anyway.


    Your poor dog :( Sounds like he's very lucky to have a very caring and conscientious owner :)


  • Hosted Moderators Posts: 18,115 ✭✭✭✭ShiverinEskimo


    Since he was a puppy our dog has had a sensitive stomach. Vomited constantly on any supermarket bought food - dry or wet. Pedigree etc. Vet told us to try Burns and we've never looked back. Seems to benefit his coat as a side-effect too. Very shiney with very little grooming at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭em_cat


    DBB wrote: »
    What's the link between grain free food and lack of taurine? Taurine is a meat protein, no?


    Taurine is an amino acid but it’s one of the ones that is present in small amounts without protein.

    The US FDA recently published some concerns regarding the amount of dogs presenting with DCM beyond what is considered normal as in it’s common in some breeds but not in others. They are linking it the newer kibble foods that are being produced as a result of the RAW/BARF trend. The grain free link just comes from the fact that some of the newer kibbles are also grain free as well.
    Of course the American media sensationalised the entire point.

    So then a social media ‘Wellness’ DVM & her sidekick that used a control of his own Cavalier to refute the concerns and they speculated that maybe the higher rates of DCM are due to lectins being present & therefore higher rates of DCM.

    He stated that because legumes are not being cooked or prepared properly in the kibble, that the lectin isn’t being destroyed so it’s ending up in the food and interrupting the ‘synthesis’ of taurine production.

    I waisted 30 some odd minutes listening to Becker & Gundry from a FB link and that took a considerable amount of patience on my part.

    Sorry, I really despise the quackery that comes from those two. Extremely loosely based in science.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭em_cat


    A crows feather, wowsers. You were spot on with the worry!

    I’m glad he got the care he needed and you’ll have an expert eye on it for sure.

    Our lad is a rescue and when we brought him home & I was a bit OTT so got a CBC, teeth and ear clean. He had digestive upset from the day we brought him home, his amalyse was normal but his lipase and WBC were higher than normal ranges.

    We had a few rough months but its under control now and EPI isn’t that common here but that’s because the poor things die from the acute pancreatitis and the dehydration before you get the dx.

    I’m lucky that we have a vet who works with us.

    Monty, what a great name! Well sometimes it takes a village to raise a child so why not a dog :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,064 ✭✭✭✭tk123


    em_cat wrote: »
    Sorry, I really despise the quackery that comes from those two. Extremely loosely based in science.

    I better call my friend up and tell her the heart specialist they take their dog to is a quack.:P She had a similar experience as that cardiac surgeon in the video - vet told her to PTS.. specialist got them to move to a raw diet asap. That was 7 months ago now. The vet is actually stocking a great brand or raw completes too - I wish mine did :p

    OP if you're ONLY changing because of the taurine scaremongering - you could aways supplement with taurine rich foods? Don't just change because of that though if he's otherwise doing well.

    I raw feed myself. You don't really need tons of space because there's loads of suppliers delivering these days.
    My dog has chronic pancreatitis and does great on a low fat raw diet btw which includes bone.

    This is the video btw - the floating labels :p
    https://www.facebook.com/doctor.karen.becker/videos/10156521657422748/


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,291 ✭✭✭em_cat


    tk123 wrote: »
    I better call my friend up and tell her the heart specialist they take their dog to is a quack.:P She had a similar experience as that cardiac surgeon in the video - vet told her to PTS.. specialist got them to move to a raw diet asap. That was 7 months ago now. The vet is actually stocking a great brand or raw completes too - I wish mine did :p

    OP if you're ONLY changing because of the taurine scaremongering - you could aways supplement with taurine rich foods? Don't just change because of that though if he's otherwise doing well.

    I raw feed myself. You don't really need tons of space because there's loads of suppliers delivering these days.
    My dog has chronic pancreatitis and does great on a low fat raw diet btw which includes bone.

    This is the video btw - the floating labels :p
    https://www.facebook.com/doctor.karen.becker/videos/10156521657422748/

    Well if it’s Gundry, then yes by all means do, if your referring to someone in Ireland I can’t comment because I don’t know of them and thankfully I’ve never needed one for my dog(s).

    Becker is nothing more than a FB darling DVM blogger and works predominantly as a public figure. She may hold a DVM qualification but the college she she got it from isn’t very notable.

    Not enough studies have been completed to fully support the FDA concerns, but if a high no of dogs of various breeds that aren’t naturally prone to DCM are now presenting as such then they are correct to raise concerns and to investigate a possible conclusion but I wouldn’t expect B&G to contribute in a constructive way.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Philster


    tk123 wrote: »
    I better call my friend up and tell her the heart specialist they take their dog to is a quack.:P She had a similar experience as that cardiac surgeon in the video - vet told her to PTS.. specialist got them to move to a raw diet asap. That was 7 months ago now. The vet is actually stocking a great brand or raw completes too - I wish mine did :p

    OP if you're ONLY changing because of the taurine scaremongering - you could aways supplement with taurine rich foods? Don't just change because of that though if he's otherwise doing well.

    I raw feed myself. You don't really need tons of space because there's loads of suppliers delivering these days.
    My dog has chronic pancreatitis and does great on a low fat raw diet btw which includes bone.

    This is the video btw - the floating labels :p
    https://www.facebook.com/doctor.karen.becker/videos/10156521657422748/
    Initially it was the cost of the food, but it just happened as I was looking at other brands that I came across this discussion on taurine. But I think for the sake of a few quid, if it ain't broke don't fix it. I'll look up taurine rich food. :)


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 97 ✭✭Philster


    em_cat wrote: »
    A crows feather, wowsers. You were spot on with the worry!

    I’m glad he got the care he needed and you’ll have an expert eye on it for sure.

    Our lad is a rescue and when we brought him home & I was a bit OTT so got a CBC, teeth and ear clean. He had digestive upset from the day we brought him home, his amalyse was normal but his lipase and WBC were higher than normal ranges.

    We had a few rough months but its under control now and EPI isn’t that common here but that’s because the poor things die from the acute pancreatitis and the dehydration before you get the dx.

    I’m lucky that we have a vet who works with us.

    Monty, what a great name! Well sometimes it takes a village to raise a child so why not a dog :)
    People told me I was worrying about the feather and their dog ate socks, stones and in one case a full packet of brillo pads :eek: And passed the pads with no apparent damage. But small dog with large feather and sharp quill was only going to have one outcome :( But he bounced back remarkably. :cool:


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