Worth negotiating?

lintdrummer

Hi all.

We are sale agreed on a property in the greater Dublin area (delighted!). It's an ex rental house, c. 20 yrs old. It's a lovely house that has been fairly well minded. We went sale agreed well under the asking price so we're very happy with that.

So, having had the survey done it's mostly positive; a few minor things like the boiler needing to be replaced as it's the original, likewise the alarm and inadequate fire alarms. However the floors are bare in places where carpet was taken up and the concrete floor downstairs where it's visible has significant cracking. We met him at the property on the day and he showed us this, however he's confident it isn't related to pyrite as there are no cracks elsewhere in the walls or around door frames etc.

My question is, considering that this cracking was visible to us when we viewed the house prior to making an offer, is it worth our while using it as a negotiation point at this stage?

TheShow

It’s a ballsy move, but if you don’t ask you don’t get. Good luck with it.

drunkmonkey

Your not going to be able to squish the house to seal the cracks ignore just fill them in when laying the floor, you could also run speaker wire along the cracks for surround sound, new lights etc...pull up the floors in a lot of houses and you'll find them somewhere.
If you know any tradesman get him to throw his eye on it.

You'll spend a lot more upgrading the boiler, heating and insulation if it's not done already.

lintdrummer

Thanks for the replies.

In one sense we know we're getting good value as is, so I'd be reluctant to push the sellers too much on the price. I'm handy enough with DIY but when it comes to structural integrity of floors and whether the cracking is going to cause problems with the floor we put on top of it, I'd be clueless. I think drunkmonkey's suggestion of getting a tradesman to take a look at it and advise is probably the best option.
As for using the cracks to run cables that's not going to be an option, it's more like crazing, not linear or in any sense useful.

April 73

You’re sale agreed on a house that you’re delighted with at well under the asking price and you want to negotiate on the price? If the cracks aren’t evidence of pyrite or subsidence I think it’s a dangerous move.
The boiler, alarm etc in most 20 year old houses could do with an upgrade - if they’re working then it’s not a must have upgrade, it’s a nice to have.
How much do you reckon the cracks could shave off the price considering the surveyor is not cladding them as anything major?

GreeBo

Surveyor said its all fine, so what leverage do you think you have?

Cash_Q

If you haven't signed contracts yet I would tread very carefully, they could pull out of the sale, on a house that you're admittedly happy with and are getting at a good price. Is this cracking worth a significant reduction like 10,000? For the sake of a figure like 1-2,000 I would let it be, in the grand scheme of things that's not a lot of money compared to what you're paying for a house, and certainly not worth the risk of them pulling out.

lintdrummer

GreeBo wrote: »

Surveyor said its all fine, so what leverage do you think you have?

Well to be fair, all the surveyor told us was that he didn't think it was likely to be pyrite but he couldn't be sure and he also couldn't be sure what had actually caused it. Indeed his written report doesn't say "it's fine", just that it exists and that there are no other signs of subsidence or evidence of cracking in other structural elements.

Cash_Q wrote: »

If you haven't signed contracts yet I would tread very carefully, they could pull out of the sale, on a house that you're admittedly happy with and are getting at a good price. Is this cracking worth a significant reduction like 10,000? For the sake of a figure like 1-2,000 I would let it be, in the grand scheme of things that's not a lot of money compared to what you're paying for a house, and certainly not worth the risk of them pulling out.

Thanks, that's exactly what I'm thinking, and precisely why I started this thread. We aren't looking for cannon fodder to negotiate the price, but rather whether this finding is significant enough to reconsider our offer. I think some professional advice is needed to put our minds at ease. I'll start by calling the surveyor again tomorrow to thresh it out because he's the only professional who's seen it thus far.

drunkmonkey

You said your handy with DIY https://www.mcmahons.ie/jetcem-rapid-set-cement-6kg would that fix it.

Tails142

Our survey discovered cracks, we tried negotiating 10k off the price, best we could get was 5k

This caused a lot of problems for us

1. When we told our solicitor of the agreed price change, he wanted to know why and when we mentioned cracking he got very concerned. Mentioned that he had a duty to the bank to ensure title was good on the property and that he had to ensure there weren't any issues such as subsidence.

2. We ended up having to get a second survey done on the house as the initial surveyor wouldn't alter his report to include some phrase that our solicitor said he required about there being no issues with structural integrity, this was an extra 300. Basically had to find the worst surveyor we could that wouldn't notice much about the cracks and put in whatever guarantee the solicitor wanted in there to cover his arse.

3. Our bank required the valuation on the property to be redone as the agreed price had now changed, why I don't know. After much questioning the banks valuer agreed to change the valuation for free but this was a 'massive favour'.

4. Our solicitor ended up charging us an extra 300 above the agreed fee due to extra time dealing with the vendors solicitor and surveyor in relation to the price change

5. It probably soured the relation between us and the vendor, they didn't leave some furniture we had said we would like and they left some furniture we had said we didn't want.

We were getting an 80% mortgage, so of the 5k we saved, it reduced our deposit by 1k but 600 of this went in extra fees for the surveyor and solicitor. We of course saved another 4k off the mortgage, but this is being paid over 40 years so hardly seemed like a saving, although with interest it means we pay about 8k less. It also probably delayed the whole process by a month or so.

If I had it over again I would probably do the same as haggling is haggling but just tread carefully and be aware that getting the price knocked down for cracks could cause you problems in getting a mortgage and may need your valuation redone.

davo10

Are you willing to gamble on the seller deciding to put the house back on the market? If yes, no harm in asking for a reduction, if no, then might be best to leave it and push the deal through quickly. Very few houses in Dublin go for under advertised price, the seller surely must know there is a good chance he will get more if advertised again.

Whispered

When we were buying our house 12 years ago, we had gone sale agreed on a property. The day we were to sign contracts the sellers tried to get 5k more from us to sign.

We said no, we had already stretched our budget. They wouldn't budge on the day and we didn't buy the house (they came back to us a few days later to renegotiate but we thought that trying to get the extra in such a way was dickish and we didn't want to deal with them). We went sale agreed on another house a few weeks later.

I know it's a different scenario but you need to be certain that the seller won't just let you off. Especially if you got a good deal.

tuisginideach

This seems to be a new 'trend' - I have heard of two sets of prospective buyers pulling the same trick recently, one even bringing in a different estate agent to justify the fact that the sellers should accept a lower price than agreed. The estate agent who was conducting the sale told them where to go and contacted the underbidder who is now - very happily - the owner of a house at the price he/she could afford (and I'm talking €800+ here).

You either want the house or you don't. Man up and pay what you agreed - or go and try the same trick elsewhere. You can be sure that estate agent won't entertain you again.

lintdrummer

tuisginideach wrote: »

This seems to be a new 'trend' - I have heard of two sets of prospective buyers pulling the same trick recently, one even bringing in a different estate agent to justify the fact that the sellers should accept a lower price than agreed. The estate agent who was conducting the sale told them where to go and contacted the underbidder who is now - very happily - the owner of a house at the price he/she could afford (and I'm talking €800+ here).

You either want the house or you don't. Man up and pay what you agreed - or go and try the same trick elsewhere. You can be sure that estate agent won't entertain you again.

C'mere and I tell you something tuiseal, if you bothered reading my previous posts you'd see I'm not trying to pull any kind of trick. We're first time buyers. I've never done any of this before and I genuinely wanted to know is a serious finding like this cause to go back and renegotiate the agreed price.
You're making serious assumptions and accusations in your post, all I want to do is get the sale completed but I'd feel like an absolute fool if I just "man'd up" and didn't question this before spending the best part of half a million euro.

One_Of_Shanks

No, I would let it go through at the agreed price rather than go opening a can of worms. This could potentially backfire on you.

Mark1916

For what it's worth, I think your issue here is trying to find out exactly what caused the crack (could be structural). I would ask the surveyor if he thinks so you should get a structural engineer in to review, I appreciate it will be another 400EUR (had to do the same myself) but in the long run it will be money well spent.
I'd a similar issue with the surveyor calling out a couple of smaller things and long story short those issues turned out to be related to one big structural issue (after the structural engineer review) but the vendors are now getting the issue remediated and we're happy to close at the original price because that's what we agreed on and it's the house for us and the price was based on there being no structural issues.  
If the issue turns out to be structural or Pyrite then you've a bigger issue on your hands so I think getting comfort over that is priority number 1 rather than renegotiating the price at this stage.

seamus

Tails illustrates a very real and common reason why any attempt to reduce the price is likely to backfire on you.

You, and I, and surveyors and estate agents, all talk in pretty plain language, straightforward and unassuming.

Solicitors and banks talk in exact and specific language. Raise flags unnecessarily and they will tie you up in paperwork.

We're currently getting a mortgage to extend the house and when I got the valuation done, the valuer asked how much the works would cost, and I gave him an even figure off the top of my head. A few weeks later the bank insisted I go back and get the valuation report filled out again because the cost of the works on the valuation report didn't match the cost of the works provided by my QS down to the cent.

They wanted to know why there was a difference of a few hundred euro between the two. Even though from the bank's point of view that difference would be irrelevant anyway, since they're not financing the whole thing.

So yeah, don't leave any room for wiggling or uncertainty when it comes to bank or solicitors.

Glass fused light

Knock in around the neighbouhood and find out if they have had any issues with cracks or subsidence or movement. Have a look along the other houses like yours around the doors and windows for cracks or repairs. Or better still get an experienced builder in to have a look to see if it's settlement of a poorly layed floor slab.

tuisginideach

lintdrummer wrote: »

C'mere and I tell you something tuiseal, if you bothered reading my previous posts you'd see I'm not trying to pull any kind of trick. We're first time buyers. I've never done any of this before and I genuinely wanted to know is a serious finding like this cause to go back and renegotiate the agreed price.
You're making serious assumptions and accusations in your post, all I want to do is get the sale completed but I'd feel like an absolute fool if I just "man'd up" and didn't question this before spending the best part of half a million euro.

The time to query that was before you went 'sale agreed'.

astrofool

That report sounds very light on issues, and at the "very good" end of the type of issues that come up on every house (after 20 years, if it was pyrite it would be a lot worse, most houses will exhibit some cracks appearing as they settle in their first 10 years). Any boiler > 10 years old will be recommended to be replaced (currently using a 30 year old Potterton that runs fine, but will be replacing this year for efficiency reasons rather than any performance problems).

That being said, if you are happy to walk away if necessary, feel free to negotiate, but nothing in the report would stand out as a reason to get a lower price, and the EA will know that as well, and be unlikely to take them into account at all.

amcalester

tuisginideach wrote: »

The time to query that was before you went 'sale agreed'.

Nonsense.

How would the OP know of any issues before going sale agreed and having a survey completed?

Ardent

I think you'd be mad to attempt to renegotiate. You're getting a good deal by your own admission, close out the sale ASAP.

Cash_Q

amcalester wrote:

How would the OP know of any issues before going sale agreed and having a survey completed?

Exactly, you wouldn't be getting a survey done on every house you place a bid on, it's only once you're sale agreed that such things could come to light.