Galway..... Can traffic wardens fine for no tax displayed on a motorcycle?

kevboselecta

Hi Folks,
I received a €60 fine for not having my tax displayed on my motorcycle in Galway. I choose not to display it on my motorcycle because I have heard stories of people stealing the discs. I always carry the disc in my wallet.
I spoke to the Garda about it and they said they aren't that strict about it and it's OK as long as you have tax and can produce it when required.

Thanks

corglass

The answer is yes, the offence is for non display.

The gardi may use their discression, but could just as easily apply same logic as traffic warden

kevboselecta

corglass wrote: »

The answer is yes, the offence is for non display.

The gardi may use their discression, but could just as easily apply same logic as traffic warden

So what would happen if I had my disc displayed and someone stole it while I was in the shops? I'd still be fined? 
That's a bit unfair?

thecommander

kevboselecta wrote: »

So what would happen if I had my disc displayed and someone stole it while I was in the shops?

Then you didn't have your disc displayed.

kevboselecta

thecommander wrote: »

kevboselecta wrote: »

So what would happen if I had my disc displayed and someone stole it while I was in the shops?

Then you didn't have your disc displayed.

That's a bit ****

seamus

If you can prove your vehicle was taxed at the time and you have evidence of an empty disc holder on the bike, then a judge will probably accept your excuse that some scrote stole the disc off the bike while you were in the shop.

If you just don't bother displaying it "in case it gets stolen", then tough nuts.

Turnipman

kevboselecta wrote: »

I choose not to display it on my motorcycle because ......

You do realise that the above statement could also be written as "I choose to break the law because ......"?

I accept that it's a very minor infraction, but people like traffic wardens seem to get off on spotting such things. Is the €60 a Galway Council fine or a Garda fine? If the former, then it should be reasonably to appeal - how do they enforce collection?

ArrBee

I guess I am also breaking the law.
I have an old one displayed and I store the new one each year at home.

In my case, I can't be arsed buying the correct sized torx to undo the disc holder....
All this information should be electronically available nowdays. Displaying a piece of paper is soooo last year. :P

Turnipman

ArrBee wrote: »

I guess I am also breaking the law.
I have an old one displayed and I store the new one each year at home.

In my case, I can't be arsed buying the correct sized torx to undo the disc holder....
All this information should be electronically available nowdays. Displaying a piece of paper is soooo last year. :P

I assume that you'd also be in favour of being fined electronically? Paper parking tickets and penalty notices are sooooooo last year!

kevboselecta

Turnipman wrote: »

kevboselecta wrote: »

I choose not to display it on my motorcycle because ......

You do realise that the above statement could also be written as "I choose to break the law because ......"?

I accept that it's a very minor infraction, but people like traffic wardens seem to get off on spotting such things.   Is the €60 a Galway Council fine or a Garda fine?  If the former, then it should be reasonably to appeal - how do they enforce collection?

It's a galway council fine, also the paper was just sitting on the bike, a bit of wind could have blown it away and i wouldn't have known about it.

ArrBee

kevboselecta wrote: »

It's a galway council fine, also the paper was just sitting on the bike, a bit of wind could have blown it away and i wouldn't have known about it.

What do you mean, "could have"?

ArrBee

Turnipman wrote: »

I assume that you'd also be in favour of being fined electronically? Paper parking tickets and penalty notices are sooooooo last year!

Sure, why not.
I don't think they have an electronic means to contact me with a fine though and I'm not sure if they could compel people to be "electronically contactable".
But as they own the databases of information (registration, and tax) they can easily control and compare that data in order to decide if a fine is due.

I note that we dont need to display insurance certificates.
Tax *should be* no different IMO.

bazz26

You are required to display a valid tax disc on your vehicle/motorcycle. You didn't have one displayed so you were issued a ticket for not displaying it. A traffic warden isn't to know that you won't put the tax disc on the bike in the event it's stolen. Go to the council office where the fine has to be paid and appeal the fine since the motorcycle is taxed. It will most likely be struck out.

Regarding getting rid of paper tax discs, they did this in the UK a few years ago and the UK Treasury have lost millions every year in tax revenue since its introduction. Don't expect similar here any time soon.

Lord Nikon

€60 seems a bit excessive for non-display of a tax disc for a motorcycle.

biko

It is higher for a car.

I have been nabbed for non-display myself. If you don't display then that is how it goes.

If you are worried about theft then colour copy the real cert and display the copy*



*no I don't know the legality around this.

josip

Maybe OP you did actually have it 'displayed' but very discreetly so as not to be a target for theft.
You probably had it displayed somewhere the traffic warden's photos wouldn't have picked it up
Check again...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1tDpkpnzT8

challengemaster

josip wrote: »

Maybe OP you did actually have it 'displayed' but very discreetly so as not to be a target for theft.
You probably had it displayed somewhere the traffic warden's photos wouldn't have picked it up
Check again...

They take photos of the vehicle. Same for parking tickets.

josip

challengemaster wrote: »

They take photos of the vehicle. Same for parking tickets.

Er, yes.

josip wrote: »

Maybe OP you did actually have it 'displayed' but very discreetly so as not to be a target for theft.
You probably had it displayed somewhere the traffic warden's photos wouldn't have picked it up
Check again...

honda boi

I've heard of lads put it behind the exhaust in an awkward place so it can't be stolen.
Be s***y if you got fined for that !!
I'd say appeal it and should be grand once bike is taxed

Del2005

josip wrote: »

Maybe OP you did actually have it 'displayed' but very discreetly so as not to be a target for theft.
You probably had it displayed somewhere the traffic warden's photos wouldn't have picked it up
Check again...

The OP got done for non display, if it's hidden behind something it's still not being displayed.

biko

Moved from motors to Motorbikes

macplaxton

Yes, it has to be both conspicuous AND on the nearside.

S.I. No. 385/1992 - Road Vehicles (Registration and Licensing) (Amendment) Regulations, 1992.

4 Exhibition of licence on vehicle.

4. (1) The licence for a vehicle shall be carried on the vehicle at all times when the vehicle is used, parked or otherwise kept at any time in a public place.

(2) The licence shall be carried on the vehicle as follows:—

( a ) on a bicycle, tricycle, or invalid carriage — in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle;

( b ) on a bicycle or tricycle used for drawing a sidecar — on the near side of the handlebar of the cycle or the near side of the combination in front of the driving seat;

( c ) on a pedestrian-controlled vehicle — in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle;

( d ) on any other vehicle — in a conspicuous position on the near side of the vehicle, or where the vehicle is fitted with a transparent windscreen — in a conspicuous position on such windscreen and in such a manner that it shall be both visible and readily accessible for inspection and be so located that it does not obscure the vision of the driver while the vehicle is being driven.

(3) The licence shall be carried in such a manner as to show at all times the date of expiry and the particulars set out at paragraph (b) of article 3 of these Regulations.

I have it in my jacket pocket along with my insurance cert. (I don't really park up anywhere between here and work)

I've lost two discs in the past. One went flying over my shoulder that was on a new bike and attached to the front mudguard mounting bolts, the second was stolen somewhere in London and whilst the traffic police did take an interest in the lack of display at Leicester Forest East Services, I told them it was taxed and I wasn't paying a further £7 for a duplicate with about a month to run (more than the tax left on it) just because some scumbag had nicked it - they left a rather annoyed me alone after hearing that.

macplaxton

biko wrote: »

It is higher for a car.

Shouldn't be, vehicle type doesn't matter.

S.I. No. 244/2017 - Road Traffic Act 2010 (Part 3) (Fixed Charge Offences) Regulations 2017

Part 7

€60 fixed charge

An offence under Section 73 of the Finance Act 1975 (No. 16 of 1976) consisting of a failure to fix to, and exhibit on, a vehicle a licence.

Max Headroom

macplaxton wrote: »

Shouldn't be, vehicle type doesn't matter.

S.I. No. 244/2017 - Road Traffic Act 2010 (Part 3) (Fixed Charge Offences) Regulations 2017

"Fix to".....But where on the vehicle...??

tico1300

You could try claim that it was stolen use that as a reason to not pay fine & order a replacement disc for six quid

listermint

In the theme of the thread

does anyone know were they can get a decent holder for the disk. mine is in bits. something that is not ****e.

Lumen

I've had mine stolen in Dublin last year. I think it was in a clear plastic cylinder.

I now carry it in the wallet and haven't had any problems. I got stopped once and produced it from my wallet.

You can colour copy your license and then just replace when it gets nicked, but I haven't done that because I'm irritated at the idea of enabling the scrotes so I'll just take my chances.

Maybe if a few fines are appealed in Galway the wardens will leave bikes alone.

edit: @listermint mine was like this

Secure Motorcycle Motorbike Tube Tax Disc Cylindrical Holder Black Waterproof
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secure-Motorcycle-Motorbike-Cylindrical-Waterproof/dp/B00C594HHG

Most of those words are true.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I was brought to court a few years ago, no display was one of the charges and since the thread is about tax discs I'll stick with that one.

I told the judge that I always carry my tax disc in my wallet and that I had displayed it to the guard who stopped me.

Judge asked the guard if that was the case, and he agreed.

Judge told the guard that he should know that tax discs are regularly stolen from motorcycles and struck out that charge.

Then cruxified me on the rest lol

Max Headroom

Freya Uneven Stampede wrote: »

I was brought to court a few years ago, no display was one of the charges and since the thread is about tax discs I'll stick with that one.

I told the judge that I always carry my tax disc in my wallet and that I had displayed it to the guard who stopped me.

Judge asked the guard if that was the case, and he agreed.

Judge told the guard that he should know that tax discs are regularly stolen from motorcycles and struck out that charge.

Then cruxified me on the rest lol

Tell...............:D

Del2005

Lumen wrote: »

I've had mine stolen in Dublin last year. I think it was in a clear plastic cylinder.

I now carry it in the wallet and haven't had any problems. I got stopped once and produced it from my wallet.

You can colour copy your license and then just replace when it gets nicked, but I haven't done that because I'm irritated at the idea of enabling the scrotes so I'll just take my chances.

Maybe if a few fines are appealed in Galway the wardens will leave bikes alone.

edit: @listermint mine was like this

Secure Motorcycle Motorbike Tube Tax Disc Cylindrical Holder Black Waterproof
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Secure-Motorcycle-Motorbike-Cylindrical-Waterproof/dp/B00C594HHG

Most of those words are true.

I have a vague recollection that some people in the UK used to put a colour copy of the disc in the holder with "Duplicate, original with owner" written on it, can't remember if it worked or I made it up though.

galwaytt

as a Galway resident, and having previous fought this war - and won - I'd ask the ticket issuer a question: where did he look, to find it. Show me where, exactly, he looked ?

Unlike a car, a motorcycle doesn't (always) have a windscreen, so there is no fixed place to display it. You can, literally, put it anywhere.

I display mine, but you're going to have to look, to find it, but technically, it is 'displayed'. Never had a Garda challenge it.

Involved with blood bikes, we've had 1 or 2 stolen - i.e. cut off - our bikes, so frankly, I'm not putting it where you can rob it.

So, OP, ask for evidence from the council/warden of where he looked, and photographic evidence of where he looked.

Sonics2k

I refuse to display mine on the grounds I had 3 nicked in 2 years many years ago.

Only one time has a Guard asked me to present it at a checkpoint since I got the Deauville, out of the 10 or so that I've gone through in the last 12 months and he was perfectly satisfied with me keeping it in my jacket.

edit: But, the law is sadly the law. Non-display is illegal so they can still fine you for not doing so.

galwaytt

Sonics2k wrote: »

But, the law is sadly the law. Non-display is illegal so they can still fine you for not doing so.

Yes it is, but if the law doesn't stipulate where, then it's your choice of where. The fact that a warden can't see it doesn't mean it's not displayed.

Sonics2k

galwaytt wrote: »

Yes it is, but if the law doesn't stipulate where, then it's your choice of where. The fact that a warden can't see it doesn't mean it's not displayed.

Do they not take photos of the bike? I assume any half intelligent one will take a number of photos of the bike, and I'm sure the disc must be clearly visible.

Emmersonn

Sonics2k wrote: »

Do they not take photos of the bike? I assume any half intelligent one will take a number of photos of the bike, and I'm sure the disc must be clearly visible.

Sadly to say "half intelligence" is not a requirement to become a traffic warden.

Cienciano

Technically, the traffic warden was right. But he's also a prick. I mean €60 for not displaying the disc which only costs €88 is ridiculous. I've had 2 stolen over the years, last one was last year. I haven't replaced it and like most, carry it in my pocket.

Max Headroom

Just curios OP...where was the bike parked..?? was it legal, on the path, why would he bother is what i'm asking really..??

kevboselecta

Max Headroom wrote: »

Just curios OP...where was the bike parked..?? was it legal, on the path, why would he bother is what i'm asking really..??

It was parked off in a corner of a car park, not on a path or in an allocated space, it was in a place were it wouldn't have affected anyone or anything.

macplaxton

Del2005 wrote: »

I have a vague recollection that some people in the UK used to put a colour copy of the disc in the holder with "Duplicate, original with owner" written on it, can't remember if it worked or I made it up though.

I've seen that. The trouble in many UK places is that the parking control is subbed-out and so contractors will probably issue a ticket on a technically correct* basis. Highly likely to be overturned on appeal though.

I've also seen discs laminated into the numberplate, but I don't think I could be bothered getting a new number plate every year.

*and sometimes just plain make things up https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-24194533

galwaytt wrote: »

Unlike a car, a motorcycle doesn't (always) have a windscreen, so there is no fixed place to display it. You can, literally, put it anywhere.

I display mine, but you're going to have to look, to find it, but technically, it is 'displayed'. Never had a Garda challenge it.

You can't just display it anywhere! Have you read the regulations?

It must be on the nearside AND in a conspicuous position.

If someone has to look (hard) to find it, then it isn't in a "conspicuous position."

(As already stated, mine isn't displayed and I've only had it out once at a dozen or so checkpoints)

Sonics2k wrote: »

and I'm sure the disc must be clearly visible.

"conspicuous position" is the term. If the disc must be "clearly visible", then if the holder lens was dirty and difficult to read, then that would be problem. But as the disc needs to be in a "conspicuous position (on nearside)" then the disc/holder itself could be dirty, etc, but if in such a "conspicuous position" and just about clean enough to see that is "carried in such a manner as to show at all times the date of expiry and the particulars set out at paragraph (b) of article 3 of these Regulations." then it might not be clearly visible (to some), but meet the requirements of the regulations because all it needs to do is "to show". A completely pointless argument on the face of it, but then if the traffic warden was Mr Magoo then it might be a valid one.

Actually "clearly visible" is a (former, when they still had discs) British requirement. The regs over there said "the licence shall be so exhibited that all the particulars on the licence are clearly visible in daylight from the near side of the road.". There isn't that same requirement here and I would argue that the Irish legal wording allows considerable more wiggle room.

Max Headroom

kevboselecta wrote: »

It was parked off in a corner of a car park, not on a path or in an allocated space, it was in a place were it wouldn't have affected anyone or anything.

seems strange that he would go out of his way....maybe he thought it was stolen/abandoned....did they produce images of the bike..??

erica74

ArrBee wrote: »

I guess I am also breaking the law.
I have an old one displayed and I store the new one each year at home.

In my case, I can't be arsed buying the correct sized torx to undo the disc holder....
All this information should be electronically available nowdays. Displaying a piece of paper is soooo last year. :P

I pulled up to a checkpoint a couple of years ago and the garda went through all the checks. I knew the bike was all legit so I was shocked when he said "the tax is out". I said no and looked down at the holder and then I could see the tax disc sitting on the press at home. The garda was grand about the disc because the bike was taxed but left me sitting on the side of the road in lashing rain for no reason for 20 minutes:rolleyes:

peckerhead

You could always try some variant of Joe Lycett's approach?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gkiw7zpULo

Max Headroom

peckerhead wrote: »

You could always try some variant of Joe Lycett's approach?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Gkiw7zpULo

Love Joe....not in that way....:p

galwaytt

macplaxton wrote: »

You can't just display it anywhere! Have you read the regulations?

It must be on the nearside AND in a conspicuous position.

If someone has to look (hard) to find it, then it isn't in a "conspicuous position."[/SIZE]



"conspicuous position" is the term. If the disc must be "clearly visible", then if the holder lens was dirty and difficult to read, then that would be problem. But as the disc needs to be in a "conspicuous position (on nearside)" then the disc/holder itself could be dirty, etc, but if in such a "conspicuous position" and just about clean enough to see that is "carried in such a manner as to show at all times the date of expiry and the particulars set out at paragraph (b) of article 3 of these Regulations." then it might not be clearly visible (to some), but meet the requirements of the regulations because all it needs to do is "to show". A completely pointless argument on the face of it, but then if the traffic warden was Mr Magoo then it might be a valid one.

Actually "clearly visible" is a (former, when they still had discs) British requirement. The regs over there said "the licence shall be so exhibited that all the particulars on the licence are clearly visible in daylight from the near side of the road.". There isn't that same requirement here and I would argue that the Irish legal wording allows considerable more wiggle room.

I can display it ANYWHERE on the nearside. Front, back or side of the bike. I can have it anywhere from 6" from the ground to the highest point - screen, top box, even a bloody ariel if I like. If it's observable, it's displayed. If you're not looking at where I put it, it's not inconspicuous, it's the warden that's failing to see it.

And define 'hard' - if he's not a motorcyclist, nor is used to or knows where to look, the onus is on him to see it, not me to point it out. Displayed is displayed.

I regularly challenge Galway LA on similar, and win more than I lose 4 out of 5 in the last 18 mths alone, so I don't go quietly into the night on stuff like this with them.

kevboselecta

Great news folks, got a letter today saying saying the fine has been cancelled...

Happy days...

Thanks for all the help and replies ðŸ˜

galwaytt

kevboselecta wrote: »

Great news folks, got a letter today saying saying the fine has been cancelled...

Happy days...

Thanks for all the help and replies ðŸ˜

Most excellent !!

Max Headroom

kevboselecta wrote: »

Great news folks, got a letter today saying saying the fine has been cancelled...

Happy days...

Thanks for all the help and replies ðŸ˜

Any explination...

kevboselecta

None at all

Max Headroom

The lads in the office probably tore the pi$$ out of him........frame that.....:D