Alexander Dennis launches the Enviro400EV bus

cros13

For those who don't know the model of bus Dublin Bus has purchased for the last few years has been the Alexander Dennis Enviro400 diesel.

Today Alexander Dennis launched the Enviro400EV using a BYD lithium iron phosphate battery and BYD supplied powertrain and running gear.



https://www.alexander-dennis.com/newsroom/news/2018/june/byd-adl-partnership-continues-the-electric-revolution-in-london-with-biggest-part-of-london-s-first-order-for-pure-electric-double-deckers/

Hopefully we're going to see these in Dublin Bus livery next year.

Atlantic Dawn

Interesting, wonder what kind of charge time and range for them, no facts or figures in the press release...

https://www.alexander-dennis.com/newsroom/news/2018/june/byd-adl-partnership-continues-the-electric-revolution-in-london-with-biggest-part-of-london-s-first-order-for-pure-electric-double-deckers/

colm_mcm

So, how does this work in reality? I’d assume a diesel bus would be working non-stop for a shift - can this bus do a day’s work without a charge?

cros13

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Interesting, wonder what kind of charge time and range for them, no facts or figures in the press release...

AFAIK it's BYD's existing 10.2m RHD double decker platform with some modifications to platform packaging to increase cabin space.
So 320kWh pack, two 150kW motors, 200kW DC rapid charging in 1.5hours, 303km rated service range.

colm_mcm

That’s quite impressive.

Any quality/safety concerns with BYD?
I only know them from they were building fake Toyota Aygos.

cros13

colm_mcm wrote: »

So, how does this work in reality? I’d assume a diesel bus would be working non-stop for a shift - can this bus do a day’s work without a charge?

The dublin bus fleet average daily mileage is ~145km per bus. Take out a few buses in maintenance I'd say an average dublin bus would still be doing less than 200km per day.

Keep in mind the bus this is based on has been in pilot service in london for several years and the commercial bus operators have placed orders for more than 100 BYD EV buses since the pilot.
Go-Ahead converted their waterloo bus depot to 100% electric last year, with charging for 43 buses (Go-Ahead operates 51 EV buses I think).
Those are BYD's single deckers.. but Metroline operates the double decker and has placed 37 orders for the ADL Enviro400EV.

ted1

colm_mcm wrote: »

That’s quite impressive.

Any quality/safety concerns with BYD?
I only know them from they were building fake Toyota Aygos.

Nope , they several thousand of these in the streets

cros13

colm_mcm wrote: »

That’s quite impressive.

Any quality/safety concerns with BYD?
I only know them from they were building fake Toyota Aygos.

ted1 wrote: »

Nope , they several thousand of these in the streets

Shenzhen switched their 14,000 (yeah... not a typo... fourteen thousand) bus fleet to EV... 80% of those buses were manufactured by BYD.
BYD is the the world's #1 plug-in manufacturer for cars (though mostly PHEVs) with 108,612 sales in China last year.

The Dublin Bus fleet is only 950. The Shenzhen BYD plant outputs ~1000 buses per month these days.

Based on what BYD has sold the 10.2m bus in other markets for I'd say ADL will be looking for €320-350k per bus for these. A diesel Enviro400 is €260-270k.
And given the battery and powertrain costs... quantity discounts would be low to non-existent.

€300 million flat to switch the whole Dublin Bus fleet, possibly €100 million to be recovered from sales of existing fleet and unnecessary maintenance equipment.
Double maintenance bay to bus ratio to 1:15... that would free up some space at depots too.

Get grid fitted to the depots for charging extrapolating from the existing London fleets:

Harristown would need a 15MW supply to feed 240 bus charging spaces - low single digit millions to retrofit including the new 20kV substation
Donnybrook would need a 15MW supply to feed 220 bus charging spaces - mid single digit millions to retrofit including the new 20kV substation (additional construction work required due to the depot layout)
Ringsend would need an 7MW supply to feed 100 bus charging spaces - low single digit millions to retrofit including the new 10kV substation
Conyngham Road would need an 7MW supply to feed 100 bus charging spaces - lower cost than above due to nearby grid infrastructure built for other projects.
Summerhill would need an 7MW supply to feed 90 bus charging spaces - again, nearby development reduces grid connection costs, though possibility exists to close and sell this depot to offset fleet replacement costs. But given capacity issues a new site would need to be found further out, summerhill could also serve as a near city center rapid charging location for Bus Eireann... in which case grid connection would need to be bumped.
Clontarf would need an 5MW supply to feed 70 bus charging spaces - low single digit millions to retrofit including the new 10kV substation
Phibsboro would need a 10MW supply to feed 170 bus charging spaces - mid single digit millions to retrofit including the new 20/10kV substation

So total cost to switch... ~€220 - 250 million. But we have "Do Nothing Denis" for a minister... he's had the new renewable feed-in tariff perpetually "months away" since he started the job and Sean Ross couldn't run a bath but could easily manage a daily newspaper column critique of water policy.

0lddog

This really does illustrate just how far behind Daimler have fallen.



( https://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057892019 )

Can anyone really see Dublin Bus parting with Diesel buses ? it probably costs a lot more to buy these anyway so they'd probably stick to Diesel.

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Can anyone really see Dublin Bus parting with Diesel buses ? it probably costs a lot more to buy these anyway so they'd probably stick to Diesel.

They are required to switch to hybrid or electric for all new purchases from 1st July 2019.
The EVs are roughly the same price as the hybrids.

But they would benefit from switching quicker. Like the majority of transport businesses their 2nd biggest expense is fuel.
Government should step in and fund 80% of capital costs for BEV buses for any licensed operator in the state for 5 years.
Give Dublin Bus a kick up in the rear with a mandated 25% cut to the subventions for a period of 10 years. If they moved quick to EV dublin bus would actually end up better off over that period (they are using ~30-35 million liters of diesel per annum).

If DB does what I think they might do and frontloads bus purchases for the next 12 months.... maybe Go-Ahead (who won a tender for 10% of dublin bus routes last year | starting service in november) will bring some of their EVs with them and underbid DB for every new route tendered.

Shefwedfan

With Dublin bus movin towards the new system of mini hubs and then direct routes into the city it is actually perfect for electric buses. You will have loads of buses running very short distances to a central hub which you then switch onto a bus which does the city centre trip......

Atlantic Dawn

Anyone know how much diesel a typical Dublin bus would go through in a year?

Shefwedfan

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Anyone know how much diesel a typical Dublin bus would go through in a year?

You have to remember a diesel bus full of people is a lot better to the environment that a single person driving solo into city centre.


Take it 60 people going in and out of the city every day on a bus for a year would use a lot less diesel than 60 people in their own cars doing the same journey



Take those 60 people and stick them onto an electric bus and happy days

unkel

Shefwedfan wrote: »

You have to remember a diesel bus full of people is a lot better to the environment that a single person driving solo into city centre.

And an EV bus is a lot better to the environment than a diesel bus. The so called clean Euro 6 buses are clean in a lab, no doubt they would fail real life emission tests like every other diesel vehicle out there.

ted1

Do Dublin bus buy busses ? Are they not purchased by the NTA?

Round Cable

ted1 wrote: »

Do Dublin bus buy busses ? Are they not purchased by the NTA?

That's it, Dublin Bus don't actually own a single bus these days!

cros13

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Anyone know how much diesel a typical Dublin bus would go through in a year?

Based on the 2014 accounts and averaged across the fleet just over 31,000 liters per year. Based on public statements regarding fleet mileage since then I'd be surprised if that number hasn't risen 10-20% since 2014.

BorneTobyWilde

https://www.scania.com/group/en/worlds-largest-biogas-double-decker-fleet/

Scania's Biogas Buses would be ideal for Dublin. Ireland is fully of steaming piles of rotten ****e that these buses can run on.

Idbatterim

Would there not be big savings on maintenance too? Also it would be far more pleasant taking an electric bus than a stinking noisy diesel! I’d expect it would increase patronage ...

ted1

Idbatterim wrote: »

Would there not be big savings on maintenance too? Also it would be far more pleasant taking an electric bus than a stinking noisy diesel! I’d expect it would increase patronage ...

It’d be much nicer to cycle behind. No idea why they don’t put hi exhaust on bussses

unkel

ted1 wrote: »

It’d be much nicer to cycle behind. No idea why they don’t put hi exhaust on bussses

Two reasons why I gave up commuting on a bike into Dublin city centre in the mid 90s:

1 - sick making stink from the diesel buses
2 - incompetent car drivers making cycling quite dangerous

Pkiernan

Mechanics union will have everyone on strike

unkel

Mechanics better start re-training...

bk

Sorry for bringing up a slightly old thread, but just came across this and very interesting.

cros13, do you know where they are putting the batteries in these buses. Is it still in the lower deck, taking up the space of two rows of seats?

I see one article stating 80 people. Which would be 10 or so less then a DB SG class, which would be a major issue, given how crammed buses already are at peak times and the loss of the 120 seater tri-axles currently happening.

cros13 wrote: »

200kW DC rapid charging in 1.5hours, 303km rated service range.

The quick charging here is key, that would effectively double the above daily range.

People might not realise it, but roughly only 40% of DB's fleet operates all day. 60% or so only operates the morning and afternoon peaks and sits in the depots in between.

So while all buses would be needed during peak hours. Drivers could swap over buses at the depots off peak so they can get a second charge during the day.

But passenger capacity is a real sticking point.

cros13 wrote: »

But they would benefit from switching quicker. Like the majority of transport businesses their 2nd biggest expense is fuel.
Government should step in and fund 80% of capital costs for BEV buses for any licensed operator in the state for 5 years.
Give Dublin Bus a kick up in the rear with a mandated 25% cut to the subventions for a period of 10 years. If they moved quick to EV dublin bus would actually end up better off over that period (they are using ~30-35 million liters of diesel per annum).

What complicates things is currently the NTA buy the buses and DB pay for the fuel. So DB would love EV and hybrid buses as it would save them money. But it would be a massive hit to the NTA's budget.

The NTA currently buy roughly 100 buses a year, at a cost of 40 million, which replace the oldest buses in the DB fleet. This is important for two reasons:

1) Those old buses are older and much more polluting Euro 3/4 engines and replacing them with much cleaner Euro 6 engines is a big win.

2) You want to keep the fleet young or you start to suffer lots of break downs which makes for unhappy passengers and tends to turn people back to cars.

If the NTA started buying EV buses with the same budget, they could only buy far fewer buses every year. Which would actually lead to more pollution (as it would mean more of the old polluting buses would stay in the fleet longer) and would lead to more breakdowns and people turning to cars.

Keeping the fleet reliable and relatively clean is more important.

Having said that, a one time big increase in the NTA budget for 10 years, plus the 250million or so for depot upgrades to get EV's into the fleet wouldn't be a bad idea, however it would certainly require more money from the department of finance. It wouldn't be an NTA decision.

And you have to remember that the NTA/TII are gearing up to spend 2 billion on bus connects, 3 billion on Metrolink and 2 billion on Dart Expansion projects. All of which would have a much bigger impact on the environment then nice EV buses.