Addresses in Northern Ireland with fadas

rnvaamonde

Hi!
I'm currently working on an application that locates addresses in the UK.
I need to test that it works with an address with fadas, and cannot be from Republic of Ireland.
Can someone tell me if you know some addresses in Northern Ireland that contains fada (some address that still has or refers to a gaelic name?). It can be in the name of a street, or the town.
Thanks!!!

BbSean

Try Ard bó

If I put it into the Royal Mail postcode finder it resolves it

David Webb

rnvaamonde wrote: »

Hi!
I'm currently working on an application that locates addresses in the UK.
I need to test that it works with an address with fadas, and cannot be from Republic of Ireland.
Can someone tell me if you know some addresses in Northern Ireland that contains fada (some address that still has or refers to a gaelic name?). It can be in the name of a street, or the town.
Thanks!!!

An odd question! Northern Ireland is in the UK, and no one there has Irish as a genuine native language. The síníocha fada are not in correct official use in the UK. Of course, it is easy to point out that many place names historically derive from those with long vowels in Irish, eg Béal Feirste. The UK doesn't cater for this in the same way as it doesn't cater for addresses written in Chinese. On the other hand, the Royal Mail does have a policy of delivering all post where the address can be figured out by the postman, even if not correctly addressed, so a letter written to an easily comprehensible Irish language address would be delivered. Does Dublin allow post to be addressed in Hindi, or any other language not spoke in Ireland?

Turnipman

rnvaamonde wrote: »

Hi!
I'm currently working on an application that locates addresses in the UK.
I need to test that it works with an address with fadas, and cannot be from Republic of Ireland.
Can someone tell me if you know some addresses in Northern Ireland that contains fada (some address that still has or refers to a gaelic name?). It can be in the name of a street, or the town.
Thanks!!!

Have you considered testing it using addresses in the Scottish gaeltacht area? I'm sure there are loads of places with fadas there!

EDIT: my wrong! They appear to use only backward facing fadas there (which may or may not be significant!) - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Scottish_Gaelic_place_names

Franz Von Peppercorn

David Webb wrote: »

An odd question! Northern Ireland is in the UK, and no one there has Irish as a genuine native language. The síníocha fada are not in correct official use in the UK. Of course, it is easy to point out that many place names historically derive from those with long vowels in Irish, eg Béal Feirste. The UK doesn't cater for this in the same way as it doesn't cater for addresses written in Chinese. On the other hand, the Royal Mail does have a policy of delivering all post where the address can be figured out by the postman, even if not correctly addressed, so a letter written to an easily comprehensible Irish language address would be delivered. Does Dublin allow post to be addressed in Hindi, or any other language not spoke in Ireland?

Yes, they do.

David Webb

Franz Von Peppercorn wrote: »

Yes, they do.

Unfortunately, the last Gaeltacht areas in Co. Tyrone faded out in the 1930s. There are no native speakers in Northern Ireland, unless there are people from Tory Island or from Conemara who have moved there. There are schools that teach in droch-Ghaelainn (the so-called Caighdeán Oifigiúil, which is not the native Irish of the Gaeltacht), but research shows the children in those schools do not speak the language properly, saying things like tá sé fear instead of is fear é, and with a heavily English accent in their Irish.

David Webb

A good study of the Irish taught in Northern Ireland is at http://scotens.org/docs/spokenirish.pdf - it is not native Irish at all, but a very badly learnt language, English in drag.

deirdremf

David Webb wrote: »

Unfortunately, the last Gaeltacht areas in Co. Tyrone faded out in the 1930s. There are no native speakers in Northern Ireland, unless there are people from Tory Island or from Conemara who have moved there. There are schools that teach in droch-Ghaelainn (the so-called Caighdeán Oifigiúil, which is not the native Irish of the Gaeltacht), but research shows the children in those schools do not speak the language properly, saying things like tá sé fear instead of is fear é, and with a heavily English accent in their Irish.

No-one in N. I. speaks Gaelainn, dea- or droch-.
They call it "an Ghaedhilg", if they speak Irish.
Apart from that, there are many people there who speak good Irish; like the rest of Ireland, there are also many learners who speak it poorly and ungrammatically - which does not make it English.
I have met the children and grandchildren of native speakers from one or other Gaeltacht area who speak Irish perfectly well, as well as many who speak it to their own families.
It may not be Gaolainn Mhúsgraí, but it is very definitely Irish. And the speakers are native to the area.

David Webb

There are no Gaeltacht areas in NI. If you mean some speakers in the Munster Connacht and Ulster Gaeltachtaí are not very fluent, well, that's true. And it's also true that there will be a range of ability in NI. A pretty bad example is the Tús Maith textbook, marred by Richard McGowan - a learner with an absurdly heavy English accent - choosing to illustrate himself as a an example of how to speak Irish. There is another learner on the CDs from NI who speaks the language well and almost natively, and there are two good native speakers who have a fantastic blás. So it's a mixed bag. But anyone who tells you "I'm from the Belfast "Gaeltacht" and we say "tá mé fear"" is not a genuine native speaker at all... And the PDF I linked to showed that poor grammar (heavily influenced by English) is the norm in Irish-medium schools in NI - native speakers they are not.

deirdremf

David Webb wrote: »

There are no Gaeltacht areas in NI. If you mean some speakers in the Munster Connacht and Ulster Gaeltachtaí are not very fluent, well, that's true. And it's also true that there will be a range of ability in NI. A pretty bad example is the Tús Maith textbook, marred by Richard McGowan - a learner with an absurdly heavy English accent - choosing to illustrate himself as a an example of how to speak Irish. There is another learner on the CDs from NI who speaks the language well and almost natively, and there are two good native speakers who have a fantastic blás. So it's a mixed bag. But anyone who tells you "I'm from the Belfast "Gaeltacht" and we say "tá mé fear"" is not a genuine native speaker at all... And the PDF I linked to showed that poor grammar (heavily influenced by English) is the norm in Irish-medium schools in NI - native speakers they are not.

You could say the same about the Gaelscoil population in Cork.
However, in Cork as everywhere else, there are native speakers in the various Gaelscoileanna.
Do you speak Irish? Are your accent, phonetics, syntax, morphology, vocabulary etc. flawless?

David Webb

Well, I wish the Gaelscoileanna were regulated. It ought to be a legal requirement that pupils in Gaelscoileanna leave school with Irish as good as children in the best Gaeltacht areas. The teachers need to work more on pronunciation and idiom. They are producing a class of schoolchildren who are fluent in bad Irish (lofa líofa) in the Manchán Magan mould. Of course, Ireland's entire approach would need to change, including employing only Gaeltacht natives as TV presenters, and ideally using one of the real Gaeltacht dialects as a national standard, and not some thing made up by a committee.
No, my accent, phonetics, syntax, morphology, vocabulary aren't flawless. I'm not a native speaker. But that's irrelevant - I'm doing the best I can with my Corkirish website, which I'm not allowed to link to here. I've been told I'll be banned if I link to it.

Imreoir2

David Webb wrote: »

Unfortunately, the last Gaeltacht areas in Co. Tyrone faded out in the 1930s. There are no native speakers in Northern Ireland, unless there are people from Tory Island or from Conemara who have moved there. There are schools that teach in droch-Ghaelainn (the so-called Caighdeán Oifigiúil, which is not the native Irish of the Gaeltacht), but research shows the children in those schools do not speak the language properly, saying things like tá sé fear instead of is fear é, and with a heavily English accent in their Irish.

Have you never heard of the Shaws Road in Belfast? There are quite a few people who were raised through Irish in NI and numerous families are raising their kids through Irish in NI today.

Sure, some kids who go to a gaelscoil in NI and have no other contact with the language outside of school do not gain full fluency. There are plenty of people who do become fully fluent in the language, I know many of them.

There are places in NI where more Irish is spoken than some of the official Gaeltacht areas in the Republic.

David Webb

Imreoir2 wrote: »

Have you never heard of the Shaws Road in Belfast? There are quite a few people who were raised through Irish in NI and numerous families are raising their kids through Irish in NI today.

Sure, some kids who go to a gaelscoil in NI and have no other contact with the language outside of school do not gain full fluency. There are plenty of people who do become fully fluent in the language, I know many of them.

There are places in NI where more Irish is spoken than some of the official Gaeltacht areas in the Republic.

I have heard of Shaws Road in Belfast. The Irish spoken there is not natural native Irish. Have you heard of a large country called India? They "speak English" there, and pronounced Canada as Ganada - and some of them grew up speaking that alleged form of English. You can hear Shaws Road Irish at https://vimeo.com/34665736 - dhá pronounced gá, etc. Le chéile pronounced le céile. Gaeilge pronounced Gaeilige, as if there were an epenthetic vowel in this word. I'll admit most Irish learners would settle for a fluent form of Irish that is not 100% native like the Shaws Road Irish - but it should be admitted this is not fully native Irish.

Epenthesis (of which there have been a number of academic treatments; I can give you references if you need them) occurs in defined circumstances eg bolg is bolag. There is a helping vowel between l and g, but only if the preceding vowel is short. There is no epenthetic in dualgas, for instance, as diphthongs and longvowels don't count, and there is therefore no additional vowel in Gaeilge. As soon as you hear anyone say Gaeilige, you know they're learners.

Imreoir2

David Webb wrote: »

I have heard of Shaws Road in Belfast. The Irish spoken there is not natural native Irish. Have you heard of a large country called India? They "speak English" there, and pronounced Canada as Ganada - and some of them grew up speaking that alleged form of English. You can hear Shaws Road Irish at https://vimeo.com/34665736 - dhá pronounced gá, etc. Le chéile pronounced le céile. Gaeilge pronounced Gaeilige, as if there were an epenthetic vowel in this word. I'll admit most Irish learners would settle for a fluent form of Irish that is not 100% native like the Shaws Road Irish - but it should be admitted this is not fully native Irish.

Epenthesis (of which there have been a number of academic treatments; I can give you references if you need them) occurs in defined circumstances eg bolg is bolag. There is a helping vowel between l and g, but only if the preceding vowel is short. There is no epenthetic in dualgas, for instance, as diphthongs and longvowels don't count, and there is therefore no additional vowel in Gaeilge.

You sound like an Englishman who looks down his nose at the pronunciation of "that" as "dat" in Dublin.

If there is one thing I hate when it comes to Irish, then it's a purist. If you are brought up speaking a language then you are a native speaker of that language. If the form of the language you speak is not identical to a community somewhere else on the island, that is neither here nor there.

David Webb

Imreoir2 wrote: »

You sound like an Englishman who looks down his nose at the pronunciation of "that" as "dat" in Dublin.

If there is one thing I hate when it comes to Irish, then it's a purist. If you are brought up speaking a language then you are a native speaker of that language. If the form of the language you speak is not identical to a community somewhere else on the island, that is neither here nor there.

I'd be interested in knowing how many people say "dat" for "that", but I think you can hear that in Liverpool too. But Hiberno-English is a good analogy for the CO - if the whole of Ireland spoke the CO, it would be equivalent to the rather deep form of Hiberno-English spoken in the 19th century. I'm reading a book translated into Irish in the Muskerry Gaeltacht, but the original book was written in Hiberno-English of a difficult sort in 1887. E.g. where the Irish has is cuma liom, the original English text has sorra mather. Does anyone say sorra mather?


No, if you're brought up speaking a language badly, you are not a valid native speaker of it. Like Indian English. Like if you raised your kids speaking Latin. Basically, you're problem is a political one. You say "so what?" "If the form of the language you speak is not identical to a community somewhere else on the island". You're basing this on the political identity of everyone in Ireland as Irish, which is true, but ignoring the fact that a language belongs to its native speakers first, and that if you learn a language, you must defer to its native speakers - or you'll just be an insulting tool of a man. Look if everyone in Dublin started to speak bad Mandarin, that would not entitle them to scream abuse at real Chinese people for telling them their Chinese would poor, would it?

pleas advice

deirdremf wrote: »

You could say the same about the Gaelscoil population in Cork.

or half the housing estates built in the last 25 years in this country, with 'Irish' names... should an address finder work with those, i wonder?

Imreoir2

David Webb wrote: »

No, if you're brought up speaking a language badly, you are not a valid native speaker of it.

I disagree that people brought up speaking Irish in NI, or outside the Gaeltacht in the south, generally speak the language badly. In my experience they are usually fluent and easily understood. A handful of gramatical differences or some differences in pronuncation do not mean that it is "English dressed up with Irish words" as you seem keen to suggest.

Look if everyone in Dublin started to speak bad Mandarin, that would not entitle them to scream abuse at real Chinese people for telling them their Chinese would poor, would it?

People raised through Irish outside the Gaeltacht, in my experiance, never scream abuse at Irish speakers from the Gaeltacht or tell them their Irish is poor. Nor have I ever seen people from the Gaeltacht denigrating people raised through Irish outside the Gaeltacht for their Irish. It's usually only a small handful of people who are not from the Gaeltacht themselves but have convinced themselves that the only "valid" Irish is that spoken by elderly people in the Gaeltacht that do so.

Carawaystick

David Webb wrote: »

No, if you're brought up speaking a language badly, you are not a valid native speaker of it.

You're claiming me, and a load of other people I know are after learning english so badly, I'm not a native speaker
That's a quare statement to make.

ted1

David Webb wrote: »

An odd question! Northern Ireland is in the UK, and no one there has Irish as a genuine native language. The síníocha fada are not in correct official use in the UK. Of course, it is easy to point out that many place names historically derive from those with long vowels in Irish, eg Béal Feirste. The UK doesn't cater for this in the same way as it doesn't cater for addresses written in Chinese. On the other hand, the Royal Mail does have a policy of delivering all post where the address can be figured out by the postman, even if not correctly addressed, so a letter written to an easily comprehensible Irish language address would be delivered. Does Dublin allow post to be addressed in Hindi, or any other language not spoke in Ireland?

You are wrong. Irish was around long before the 6 counties were partitioned.
I know several native Irish speakers from Belfast.
Royal Mail accimdates Scottish and Welsh

https://www.poweredbypaf.com/offering-royal-mail-postcode-address-file-customers-the-option-to-use-the-welsh-version-of-their-address/


They’ve even made a statement on Irish addresses
https://www.google.ie/amp/s/amp.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/we-deliver-letters-addressed-in-irish-and-ulster-scots-says-royal-mail-after-post-returned-37437003.html

An gal gréine

David Webb wrote: »

You can hear Shaws Road Irish at https://vimeo.com/34665736 - Gaeilge pronounced Gaeilige, as if there were an epenthetic vowel in this word.

Epenthesis (of which there have been a number of academic treatments; I can give you references if you need them) occurs in defined circumstances eg bolg is bolag. There is a helping vowel between l and g, but only if the preceding vowel is short. There is no epenthetic in dualgas, for instance, as diphthongs and longvowels don't count, and there is therefore no additional vowel in Gaeilge. As soon as you hear anyone say Gaeilige, you know they're learners.

They only say 'Gaeilige' in the genitive case...."Conradh na Gaeilige' or 'muintir na Gaeilige'. Gaeilig or an approximation of, as Deirdre pointed out above is the Ulster dialect for Gaeilge.
Your Munster brethern do similar.
Gaolann....and muintir na Gaolainne.