Wedge Curiosity

sydneygolfdude

I was in American Golf over the weekend having a look around and I couldn't get over the prices of lofted wedges these days. Up to €200+ for some of the Cleveland/Titleist gear. Don't really use the lofted wedges myself but was having a look at some of them and I always just assumed that the wedge set was 58 degrees and up but the majority of the stuff was 52d, 54d and 56d. My question is, why are golfers playing huge sums of money of clubs like these with lofts that are already covered with their existing SW and PW or maybe there is something I am missing...

Mantis Toboggan

My pitching wedge is 45 degrees and my sand wedge is 58 degrees so you need at least one if not 2 gap wedges between these. But I'd never pay 200 for any wedge.

sydneygolfdude

fair point, I suppose I am just used to adjusting my swing with PW or my SW to to suit to cover the ranges in between but that's me. My SW and PW are 44 and 54. I just found the money crazy for those clubs.

kopkidda

Ebay is your only man if looking for a decent price wedge, some cracking deals around.

sydneygolfdude

kopkidda wrote: »

Ebay is your only man if looking for a decent price wedge, some cracking deals around.

not actually looking for a wedge as there are additional clubs I don't find necessary for my game. But i just could not get over the amount of wedges in the 52, 54 and 56 degree range and to me those are just a few degrees either side of most regular SW. I don't think the average mid to high handicapper has the swing consistency to change up or down on a club for the sake or 1/2 degrees. I used to think wedges were for everything above the traditional SW loft, 58 and up...

kopkidda

sydneygolfdude wrote: »

not actually looking for a wedge as there are additional clubs I don't find necessary for my game. But i just could not get over the amount of wedges in the 52, 54 and 56 degree range and to me those are just a few degrees either side of most regular SW. I don't think the average mid to high handicapper has the swing consistency to change up or down on a club for the sake or 1/2 degrees. I used to think wedges were for everything above the traditional SW loft, 58 and up...

Ye agree about mid/high handicappers, but I have 4 wedges in my bag if you include pw, there are rounds that all I am hitting is driver, wedge for a lot of par 4's, obviously a market out there for all these wedges.

RoadRunner

sydneygolfdude wrote: »

just a few degrees either side of most regular SW

Most sets don't come with what used to be the "regular" SW anymore.
There's more customisation on the soles of specialty wedges to suit individuals. Many drop the PW from their set too and go from 46->60 degrees. Agree it's pricey and I also think wedges wear quicker than your regular set due to how they're used (and also how often they're used).

edit: There's a few brands of wedges that are good bang for buck. An early wedge set I used were called tigershark, and I got three wedges for €70. They were 25 each and I haggled the last 5'er off

sydneygolfdude

kopkidda wrote: »

Ye agree about mid/high handicappers, but I have 4 wedges in my bag if you include pw, there are rounds that all I am hitting is driver, wedge for a lot of par 4's, obviously a market out there for all these wedges.

ha, there certainly is. if i was to buy one, id be looking at 60d to substitute for my half hit SW when I am in that range but I just don't feel id hit a better shot with it than what I do already. Anyway I was not here to tell people what to do as I am definitely no expert but it was more an observation...

Fann Linn

sydneygolfdude wrote: »

fair point, I suppose I am just used to adjusting my swing with PW or my SW to to suit to cover the ranges in between but that's me. My SW and PW are 44 and 54. I just found the money crazy for those clubs.

Like you my club set came with 46 and 54 wedges. I just filled the gap and bought a Cleveland 50 deg with slightly lesser bounce than the other two. I think it cost about €70.
Depending on the lie and shot opening or closing the face gives me plenty of options also with the three wedges.

mighty magpie

sydneygolfdude wrote: »

not actually looking for a wedge as there are additional clubs I don't find necessary for my game. But i just could not get over the amount of wedges in the 52, 54 and 56 degree range and to me those are just a few degrees either side of most regular SW. I don't think the average mid to high handicapper has the swing consistency to change up or down on a club for the sake or 1/2 degrees. I used to think wedges were for everything above the traditional SW loft, 58 and up...

haven't met a golfer yet who has gaps of 1 or 2 degrees in their wedges, usually 4, sometimes 6.

I play a 46 PW then have wedges at 52,56,60 but they didn't cost anywhere close to €200. The all have their use, 56 probably most used.

kod12

just got a new set of Ping G400 and the PW is 44.5 and the SW is 54 what gap wedges would you recommend I would need?

fred funk }{

kod12 wrote: »

just got a new set of Ping G400 and the PW is 44.5 and the SW is 54 what gap wedges would you recommend I would need?

Your PW is very strong, it's essentially a 9. You need a 48 or a 50.

plumber77

kod12 wrote: »

just got a new set of Ping G400 and the PW is 44.5 and the SW is 54 what gap wedges would you recommend I would need?

In the ping g400s there is also a UW of 49.5 and a LW of 58. You might be able to buy them as single irons if looking to match the set

charlieIRL

I have 4 wedges in my bag, 3 came with my irons (SW, PW & LW) and I have a 50 degree wedge from my old set. Thats the only one i ever bought as a separate club and was about €50 secondhand!!

Only time the 60 is used is from a greenside bunker or if i have to chip over a bunker to the green but I'd use the rest fairly regularly.

Opposite end of the bag, I rarely use my 4 or 5 iron.

prawnsambo

plumber77 wrote: »

In the ping g400s there is also a UW of 49.5 and a LW of 58. You might be able to buy them as single irons if looking to match the set

Yeah. Always best to try and match them. I had real trouble with Callaway wedges with my TM irons and eventually filled out my TM set.

Dbu

I find golfbidder great for picking up 2nd hand wedges. They are always in great nick and I can move them on in dondeal when I 'fall' out of love with them
Then again, Im always chopping and changing wedges..

mike12

Most sets don't come with a sw bar real game improver sets.
And most of those are too bulky to be effective from the sand.
If there is a option to add a gw in the same head and shaft as your set it's a great addition.
Then I think it depends if u like playing half shots if not most will go 54 and 58 to fill the gaps.

Keano

I have a PW and 56 degree Vokey, that's it...

PARlance

My wedge curiosity: why is there so much talk about the importance of "game improvement" irons but when it comes to individual wedges, they're essentially all blades.

You'll see lads with a set of GI irons and 2/3 Vokeys in the bag too. Shouldn't the wedges also be "game improvement"?

Russman

PARlance wrote: »

My wedge curiosity: why is there so much talk about the importance of "game improvement" irons but when it comes to individual wedges, they're essentially all blades.

You'll see lads with a set of GI irons and 2/3 Vokeys in the bag too. Shouldn't the wedges also be "game improvement"?

I think (or maybe suspect) that the reason is that most shots with wedges are less than full, so with the shorter shaft, shorter swing etc., guys can more easily find the sweetspot, so bladed wedges can work for most.
Plus for the more finesse shots, a wide soled, high bounce cavity back isn't the easiest tool to manipulate, even in skilled hands.

kod12

Dbu wrote: »

I find golfbidder great for picking up 2nd hand wedges. They are always in great nick and I can move them on in dondeal when I 'fall' out of love with them
Then again, Im always chopping and changing wedges..

Was just going to ask how do you find golfbidder? some great deals there but wondered how much is the cost to ireland and how long does it take?

tvercetti

My set didn't come with a SW so for a long time was carrying a PW, 52, 56 and 64. I've dropped the 56 and 64 recently and replaced them with a 60.

So PW, 52 and 60 now and I find I use them 3 more than the rest of my irons. On a couple of my local courses, I'd only end up using my 3-9 irons on the par 3's and a wedge on almost every hole.

plumber77

kod12 wrote: »

Was just going to ask how do you find golfbidder? some great deals there but wondered how much is the cost to ireland and how long does it take?

Bought a wedge couple of weeks back. Great condition and cost 10 sterling p&p. Still great value. Delivery took 4/5 days.

backspin.

PARlance wrote: »

My wedge curiosity: why is there so much talk about the importance of "game improvement" irons but when it comes to individual wedges, they're essentially all blades.

You'll see lads with a set of GI irons and 2/3 Vokeys in the bag too. Shouldn't the wedges also be "game improvement"?

That's something that bothered me a bit. I have a 45 degree set PW with 110g shafts. I didn't like going to player style wedges with heavy shafts. I bought a couple of CBX wedges recently. Great wedges too, bigger heads, cavity back and lighter shafts. Think they are 115g. Very happy with them.

I'm now 45, 52 and 58 in my wedges.

Montgolfier

Anyone know when wedges are worn? I can hit my 60 vokey low and check but my 54 looks worn and not feeling it stops unless I hit it very hard.

Fann Linn

Montgolfier wrote: »

Anyone know when wedges are worn? I can hit my 60 vokey low and check but my 54 looks worn and not feeling it stops unless I hit it very hard.

Ye can buy a re-grooving tool on ebay!

BigChap1759

I’ve never heard of any wedge costing 200 - 150 tops for titleist??

Montgolfier

Fann Linn wrote: »

Ye can buy a re-grooving tool on ebay!

Are they not illegal?

Fann Linn

Montgolfier wrote: »

Are they not illegal?

Yes.
But they're still on sale!

GreeBo

sydneygolfdude wrote: »

not actually looking for a wedge as there are additional clubs I don't find necessary for my game. But i just could not get over the amount of wedges in the 52, 54 and 56 degree range and to me those are just a few degrees either side of most regular SW. I don't think the average mid to high handicapper has the swing consistency to change up or down on a club for the sake or 1/2 degrees. I used to think wedges were for everything above the traditional SW loft, 58 and up...

you dont buy all the wedges, you buy the ones that complement your main set.

You want 4 degrees between each club, on average.
Thats about 10 yards for most people.
So depending on the loft on your stock PW, which could be anywhere from 42 up to 50, you use the standalone wedges to fill out your gaps since your SW (if you got one in your set) is likely around 56.

In your own case you have 10 degrees between two clubs....thats WAY too much as its nearly 3 clubs in the different.

You wouldnt choose to leave your 6, 7 & 8 irons at home and just adjust your 5 iron so why would you do it with the scoring clubs?


/edit
You can blame the manufactures who, in a search for fake distance, keep lowering the lofts on all your clubs so that the thing with a 7 stamped on the bottom now goes the same distance as the thing that had a 6 on it last year.
This pushed all the lofts down so a 3 or even 4 iron becomes too hard to hit for most golfers (shaft is too long for the little loft on it and they dont have the swingspeed)
This means you need to go buy some rescues to replace long irons.
At the other end your wedge is now equivalent to an old 8 or 9 iront, but your SW is still the same as it still needs to get you out of bunkers.
Now you need a gap wedge to fill this gap.
Anything about 56 is into Lob territory.

GreeBo

Fann Linn wrote: »

Yes.
But they're still on sale!

They are not illegal.
However they *may* leave your grooves in a non-conforming way.
But you could do they exact same with a screwdriver or knife and it would be just as "illegal".
Re-Grooving your clubs is perfectly legal, as long as they still conform to the rules.

Spideog Rua

PARlance wrote: »

My wedge curiosity: why is there so much talk about the importance of "game improvement" irons but when it comes to individual wedges, they're essentially all blades.

You'll see lads with a set of GI irons and 2/3 Vokeys in the bag too. Shouldn't the wedges also be "game improvement"?

The ping glide and Cleveland cbx would be GI wedges. I have the CBX, and my wedge play is less **** because of it

Montgolfier

GreeBo wrote: »

They are not illegal.
However they *may* leave your grooves in a non-conforming way.
But you could do they exact same with a screwdriver or knife and it would be just as "illegal".
Re-Grooving your clubs is perfectly legal, as long as they still conform to the rules.

Can you buy a conforming groove gauge? I've never heard of anyone checking grooves. Its a bit like anchoring can't and won't be proved or attempted to be proved.

prawnsambo

GreeBo wrote: »

You can blame the manufactures who, in a search for fake distance, keep lowering the lofts on all your clubs so that the thing with a 7 stamped on the bottom now goes the same distance as the thing that had a 6 on it last year.
This pushed all the lofts down so a 3 or even 4 iron becomes too hard to hit for most golfers (shaft is too long for the little loft on it and they dont have the swingspeed)
This means you need to go buy some rescues to replace long irons.
At the other end your wedge is now equivalent to an old 8 or 9 iront, but your SW is still the same as it still needs to get you out of bunkers.
Now you need a gap wedge to fill this gap.
Anything about 56 is into Lob territory.

I think this is a bit of an exaggeration tbh. Here's a table of the lofts on TM Irons from 1999 to 2017. In that time, there's been a change of 4 degrees max and the lofts have actually weakened in the last few years. It's not an exhaustive list because with the amount of irons TM produce, that would be exhausting.

But to just take the PW, it's ranged from 44 up to 48 degrees and twenty years ago they were 45 degrees, much the same as they are now.

Model|Firesole|Supersteel|RAC MB|RAC LT|R7 XD|R7|Burner XD|Burner Plus|R9|Burner 2.0|R11|Rocketballz|Speedblade|RSi|PSi|P770
Year|1999|2000|2003|2004|2005|2006|2007|2008|2009|2010|2011|2012|2013|2014|2015|2017
1i|N/A|N/A|17|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
2i|N/A|19|19|18|N/A|18|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
3i|20.5|21|21|21|19|20|19|19|20|19|19|17.5|17|17|19|20.5
4i|23.5|24|24|24|21|22|21|22|22|21|21|20|20|20|21.5|23
5i|26.5|27|28|27|23|25|23|25|25|24|24|23|23|23|24.5|26
6i|29.5|30|32|31|26|28|26|28|28|27|28|26.5|26.5|26.5|27.5|29.5
7i|33|33|36|35|30|32|30|32|32|31|32|30.5|30.5|30.5|31.5|33
8i|37|37|40|39|34|36|34|36|36|35|36|35|34.5|34.5|35.5|37
9i|41|41|44|43|39|40|39|40|41|40|40|40|39.5|39|40.5|41.5
PW|45|45|48|47|44|45|44|45|46|45|45|45|45|44|45.5|46
AW|50|50|N/A|51|49|50|49|50|50|50|50|50|50|49.5|50.5|51
SW|55|55|N/A|55|54|55|54|55|55|55|55|55|55|55|55|N/A
LW|N/A|60|N/A|N/A|59|60|59|60|N/A|60|N/A|60|60|60|N/A|N/A

BigChap1759

It’s a total misconception that spin is caused by the grooves - regrooving will not make u spin the ball more.

Spin is caused by the ball gripping the surface of the club - the more balls you hit, the smoother the face becomes and the less spin you get. Tests with grooveless wedges get the most spin of any club but, if you get any grass or material between club and ball, then you’ll get a flyer or a bad contact which will yield unpredictable consequences

BigChap1759

BigChap1759 wrote: »

It’s a total misconception that spin is caused by the grooves - regrooving will not make u spin the ball more.

Spin is caused by the ball gripping the surface of the club - the more balls you hit, the smoother the face becomes and the less spin you get. Tests with grooveless wedges get the most spin of any club but, if you get any grass or material between club and ball, then you’ll get a flyer or a bad contact which will yield unpredictable consequences

Grooves are there to channel grass, mud etc away from the surface like a car tyre does with rain

Russman

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Grooves are there to channel grass, mud etc away from the surface like a car tyre does with rain

True, but if you try hit some pitches with an old non-conforming wedge from 8 years ago you get crazy stopping power compared to now. Just for the craic I bought a new, but several years old Callaway X Forged wedge about 3 years ago (it was in a clearance bag at the back of the shop) and its insane how much spin you can get with it, even out of a clean lie. Even opening up the face is hard as it just grips the ball and throws it out on a much lower trajectory than you'd normally expect. I definitely get much more spin with the non-conforming grooves than with a current brand new wedge. I'm glad its still legal for a few years yet !

Dbu

kod12 wrote: »

Was just going to ask how do you find golfbidder? some great deals there but wondered how much is the cost to ireland and how long does it take?

Find them great, delivery is a tenner and with UPS to Ireland. 2 days tracked

Most of the clubs I buy would be marked as a 6-7/10 condition wise, and are excellent quality when arrive. I would give clubs that they mark as 6/10 an 8-9 in most cases

BigChap1759

Russman wrote: »

True, but if you try hit some pitches with an old non-conforming wedge from 8 years ago you get crazy stopping power compared to now. Just for the craic I bought a new, but several years old Callaway X Forged wedge about 3 years ago (it was in a clearance bag at the back of the shop) and its insane how much spin you can get with it, even out of a clean lie. Even opening up the face is hard as it just grips the ball and throws it out on a much lower trajectory than you'd normally expect. I definitely get much more spin with the non-conforming grooves than with a current brand new wedge. I'm glad its still legal for a few years yet !

Any new wedge will get huge stopping power because the face is still relatively rough - you’d need to show me proof from spin rates etc

GreeBo

prawnsambo wrote: »

I think this is a bit of an exaggeration tbh. Here's a table of the lofts on TM Irons from 1999 to 2017. In that time, there's been a change of 4 degrees max and the lofts have actually weakened in the last few years. It's not an exhaustive list because with the amount of irons TM produce, that would be exhausting.

But to just take the PW, it's ranged from 44 up to 48 degrees and twenty years ago they were 45 degrees, much the same as they are now.

Model|Firesole|Supersteel|RAC MB|RAC LT|R7 XD|R7|Burner XD|Burner Plus|R9|Burner 2.0|R11|Rocketballz|Speedblade|RSi|PSi|P770
Year|1999|2000|2003|2004|2005|2006|2007|2008|2009|2010|2011|2012|2013|2014|2015|2017
1i|N/A|N/A|17|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
2i|N/A|19|19|18|N/A|18|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A|N/A
3i|20.5|21|21|21|19|20|19|19|20|19|19|17.5|17|17|19|20.5
4i|23.5|24|24|24|21|22|21|22|22|21|21|20|20|20|21.5|23
5i|26.5|27|28|27|23|25|23|25|25|24|24|23|23|23|24.5|26
6i|29.5|30|32|31|26|28|26|28|28|27|28|26.5|26.5|26.5|27.5|29.5
7i|33|33|36|35|30|32|30|32|32|31|32|30.5|30.5|30.5|31.5|33
8i|37|37|40|39|34|36|34|36|36|35|36|35|34.5|34.5|35.5|37
9i|41|41|44|43|39|40|39|40|41|40|40|40|39.5|39|40.5|41.5
PW|45|45|48|47|44|45|44|45|46|45|45|45|45|44|45.5|46
AW|50|50|N/A|51|49|50|49|50|50|50|50|50|50|49.5|50.5|51
SW|55|55|N/A|55|54|55|54|55|55|55|55|55|55|55|55|N/A
LW|N/A|60|N/A|N/A|59|60|59|60|N/A|60|N/A|60|60|60|N/A|N/A

I dont think you are going back far enough!

"I can't begin to tell you how crucial gapping in wedges is," said Titleist master craftsman Bob Vokey.

"Most everyday players have little idea about the loft gaps with their wedges. They just take a pitching wedge and sand wedge and go.

"In the old days that was okay because most pitching wedges were around 51 degrees. But now they're 45 to 47 degrees while the sand wedge has stayed at 56. That's a two-plus club difference because now the pitching wedge is essentially the loft of a 9-iron."

Most instructors recommend you should have around four degrees of difference between all of your wedges.

That said, I am having difficulty proving it at the moment!

Montgolfier

GreeBo wrote: »

I dont think you are going back far enough!



That said, I am having difficulty proving it at the moment!

http://www.dmmoyle.com/MMOYLECUSTOMCLUBS/SetHistory.asp

Montgolfier

BigChap1759 wrote: »

It’s a total misconception that spin is caused by the grooves - regrooving will not make u spin the ball more.

Spin is caused by the ball gripping the surface of the club - the more balls you hit, the smoother the face becomes and the less spin you get. Tests with grooveless wedges get the most spin of any club but, if you get any grass or material between club and ball, then you’ll get a flyer or a bad contact which will yield unpredictable consequences

Got to say I didn't believe that at first but I just had a lesson with Padraig Dooley in cork and he mentioned that its the wear between the grooves that's important. So I'm getting a new wedge for sure.

Russman

BigChap1759 wrote: »

Any new wedge will get huge stopping power because the face is still relatively rough - you’d need to show me proof from spin rates etc

Well I have a new, current Callaway MD 4 bought less than a month ago, and the “old” X Forged which is basically still new as I don’t really use it much, same loft, and there is a huge difference in how they spin and play. Unfortunately I don’t have a trackman to measure numbers but the old one definitely spins more from my observation, it’s not even close.

BigChap1759

Russman wrote: »

Well I have a new, current Callaway MD 4 bought less than a month ago, and the “old” X Forged which is basically still new as I don’t really use it much, same loft, and there is a huge difference in how they spin and play. Unfortunately I don’t have a trackman to measure numbers but the old one definitely spins more from my observation, it’s not even close.

That’s as maybe but again I’d suggest it’s not really proof - they’re different models so there are a lot of potential variables at play with regards to the amount of spin you get, or seem to get

BigChap1759

In a similar vein I saw Harrington doing a q&a and he said he changed his wedges every 4/6 weeks to ensure he could always get the maximum spin!!!

Montgolfier

Anyone gone to low bounce for the hard ground? I had a few low semi bladed shots today seriously considering getting a low bounce option in the 56*

Russman

Montgolfier wrote: »

Anyone gone to low bounce for the hard ground? I had a few low semi bladed shots today seriously considering getting a low bounce option in the 56*

Sort of. I put a low bounce 60 in the bag a few weeks ago, having hardly ever used one before. It’s still really only for emergencies though if I’m honest.
I think in a 56 it’s more a case of just being a bit more careful with strike on the firm ground, but a good heel grind definitely helps imho.

GreeBo

I always play a 60 with 4* of bounce.
My 56 has 12* so Im covered for whatever situation.